Is Kevin Durant overrated when people says he's clearly above James Harden?

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Re: Is Kevin Durant overrated when people says he's clearly above James Harden? 

Post#21 » by Lenneth » Tue Oct 13, 2020 1:47 am

Rockets run everything through Harden, and Harden has a historically high usage rate.
But, when the game is on the line in a pressure situation, he crumbles basically every single time, and that's one of the big reason why Rockets kept failing in PO.
For example, this is what Harden did last year against Warriors after Durant was out.

Game 5, 4th quarter. Harden played 11 minutes and scored 3 points, shooting 1-2 from the field with 1 technical free throw until the 1-minute mark. He added 2 more points with 18 seconds left when Warriors defended 3 pts line to give up a layup. In contrast, Curry dropped 12 pts in the 4th quarter. After everything happened and went through all those complaining last PO, Rockets finally got a golden chance to beat Warriors with KD out of the picture. Then, Harden completely disappeared in the 4th quarter. It was one of the most strange games I saw.

Game 6, 4th quarter. Harden played 10 minutes and scored 4 points, shooting 2-6 from the field until a 1-minute mark. He added 5 more points at the last minute, but the game was already out of the reach. In contrast, Curry carried Warriors to the conference by dropping 23 pts in the 4th quarter, 33 pts in 2nd half after going scoreless in the first half.

This happens over and over again in PO.

Harden's overall PO number isn't that horrible. But in key moments like the 4th quarter, Harden keeps pulling disappearing acts like that. Until he reverses his performances in key moments, he won't be able to shake up his reputation.
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Re: Is Kevin Durant overrated when people says he's clearly above James Harden? 

Post#22 » by DarkXaero » Tue Oct 13, 2020 1:56 am

OP, why do you hate KD so much?
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Re: Is Kevin Durant overrated when people says he's clearly above James Harden? 

Post#23 » by Def Leppard » Tue Oct 13, 2020 1:59 am

Nope. Hes not

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Re: Is Kevin Durant overrated when people says he's clearly above James Harden? 

Post#24 » by IzzyT » Tue Oct 13, 2020 2:02 am

OP,

No one needs any stats, especially not DBPM, to tell that Kevin Durant is a much better defender than James Harden. I don’t think many people are going to be very interested in a math, deep-dive comparison on both players.

KD peaked in GS. Excluding his time there excludes his peak.
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Re: Is Kevin Durant overrated when people says he's clearly above James Harden? 

Post#25 » by Run DLC » Tue Oct 13, 2020 2:10 am

KD is still better. I will say this though, KD will have the better career, but Harden is going to end up with the better well-rounded numbers. If Harden wins a ring or two, an argument can be made for him being on par with KD.
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Re: Is Kevin Durant overrated when people says he's clearly above James Harden? 

Post#26 » by bamheat » Tue Oct 13, 2020 2:12 am

traax wrote:Durant shows up on the biggest stage, when Harden crumbles under pressure. Your cherry picked stats obviously dont show that. Leaving our Durants two titles and FMVPS, how pathetic is that?


Just like how Durant cherry picked teams?
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Re: Is Kevin Durant overrated when people says he's clearly above James Harden? 

Post#27 » by Dennis 37 » Tue Oct 13, 2020 2:41 am

Who are these people of whom people keep saying they said stuff?

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Re: Is Kevin Durant overrated when people says he's clearly above James Harden? 

Post#28 » by stormi » Tue Oct 13, 2020 2:47 am

Lockdown504090 wrote:
Drygon wrote:Obviously, KD is easily among the greats in NBA history & even his biggest haters will admit it.

But whenever KD & Harden are compared to eachother, people says he's clearly better than Harden without elaborating it.

Just looking into playoff statistics when KD and Harden had same level of supporting casts on OKC & Houston Rockets respectively while being undisupted most valuable/impactful player, Harden actually has an edge on KD. Simply due to playmaking skills & having slightly better TS% despite KD's scoring were heavily assisted.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Kevin Durant at Oklahoma City Thunder (2009-2016)

Playoffs

- 28.9 PPG, 8.0 RPG, 3.7 APG
- 45.5 FG%, 32.9 3P%, 84.8 FT% on 57.5 TS% (46.2% of 2Ps & 73.9% of 3Ps assisted)
- 0.177 WS/48
- 6.3 BPM
- 0 Rings
- 0 Finals MVPs


James Harden at Houston Rockets (2012-2020)

Playoffs

- 28.4 PPG, 5.7 RPG, 7.1 APG
- 42.1 FG%, 32.4 3P%, 87.1 FT% on 57.8 TS% (15.0% of 2Ps & 30.8% of 3Ps assisted)
- 0.173 WS/48
- 7.6 BPM
- 0 Rings
- 0 Finals MVPs

Durant is obviously a better playoff perfoemer because of the variety in how he scores harden's numbers are inflated by houstons system..... thats what I thought at first.

But watch Harden before he started completely buying into the moneyball system. its staggering how much the warriors are guessing and struggling to defend him.
;t=79s&ab_channel=ColliderSports

I wonder now if harden just wasted 3-4 years of his prime playing in a grade school offense with a coach who plays too much 2k. the man looked like he was on his way to being better than wade, before the Morey and D'antoni convinced him to change his game.


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Re: Is Kevin Durant overrated when people says he's clearly above James Harden? 

Post#29 » by LOUiS-D » Tue Oct 13, 2020 3:48 am

If people are questioning whether an MVP and future hall of famer is better than you, you're probably pretty damn good. They're both masters. I have no shade to throw.
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Re: Is Kevin Durant overrated when people says he's clearly above James Harden? 

Post#30 » by Pelly24 » Tue Oct 13, 2020 3:57 am

I honestly see them as basically being the same. Neither of them have a signature moment where they really defied expectations and carried a team to ridiculous heights. I look for these guys to have a game like Luka did against the Clippers or LeBron had against the Pistons in 2007 where he scored 29 of his teams last 30 points or anything like that. Instead, generally when things got hard or above their literal day to day level of ability, they just folded or lost or came up short. Harden has more epic failures, but also generally a bit more on his shoulders. You can kinda put Steph in here too. For me it's like the Barkley/Karl Malone tier.

KD is proof of why in a way he was right to go to GSW. There are people that will reward him for the move. He's a champion now, but really, put any top 10 player there they still likely win. I really don't look at him any differently than I did when he was in OKC. There's no arc. No narrative. He couldn't beat 'em, so he joined 'em. LeBron and MJ added stuff/elements to their game (MJ did Triangle offense and played off ball more, LeBron improved his jumper, got a post game, became smarter reading the game) and pushed themselves to new levels. KD never did. Harden added a floater, but more or less the same stuff.
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Re: Is Kevin Durant overrated when people says he's clearly above James Harden? 

Post#31 » by LarsV8 » Tue Oct 13, 2020 3:58 am

Roughly equivalent caliber players.

No one will admit since they are completely biased.

And lol at the playoff numbers, they are almost identical.

Only difference is Harden lost to better teams, Durant lost to worse teams. :lol:
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Re: Is Kevin Durant overrated when people says he's clearly above James Harden? 

Post#32 » by Karate Diop » Tue Oct 13, 2020 12:10 pm

I love how defense doesn't matter when KD is compared to another player... Yes Durant is better than Harden.

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Re: Is Kevin Durant overrated when people says he's clearly above James Harden? 

Post#33 » by queridiculo » Tue Oct 13, 2020 12:15 pm

traax wrote:Durant shows up on the biggest stage, when Harden crumbles under pressure. Your cherry picked stats obviously dont show that. Leaving our Durants two titles and FMVPS, how pathetic is that?


Is it cherry picking, or is it simply an attempt to normalize those numbers to make a more apples to apples comparison?

At least what the op used to frame his argument is quantifiable, unlike things like "intangibles", "shows up at the biggest stage", "crumbles under pressure" etc.
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Re: Is Kevin Durant overrated when people says he's clearly above James Harden? 

Post#34 » by PhilBlackson » Tue Oct 13, 2020 12:26 pm

I'll gladly take KD over the biggest choking "superstar" maybe of all time.
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Re: Is Kevin Durant overrated when people says he's clearly above James Harden? 

Post#35 » by King4Day » Tue Oct 13, 2020 1:07 pm

His defense/effort is the difference between the 2.
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Re: Is Kevin Durant overrated when people says he's clearly above James Harden? 

Post#36 » by DaT WaVeY RiCaN » Tue Oct 13, 2020 1:19 pm

Harden most likely will be better than ruptured acchillies kd from now on
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Re: Is Kevin Durant overrated when people says he's clearly above James Harden? 

Post#37 » by Drygon » Fri Oct 16, 2020 4:51 pm

GregOden wrote:KD is a generational elite shot maker, whereas James Harden is elite at playing the refs. Let's just compare them on Team USA. Kevin Durant is the #1 option and entire opposing teams scheme to stop him, whereas James Harden is basically a scrub in FIBA because he can't march his way to the FT line.


How can you say that when it's other way around?

James Harden in playoffs (2012-2020): 57.8 TS% (15.0% of 2Ps & 30.8% of 3Ps assisted)

Kevin Durant in playoffs (2010-2016): 57.5 TS% (46.2% of 2Ps & 73.9% of 3Ps assisted)

DaPessimist wrote:
Drygon wrote:
DaPessimist wrote:Peak KD was a tier above Harden.


I assume you're talking about KD's peak at OKC, right?



His 2nd year with the Warriors he was the best scorer in the league and a DPOY candidate. One of the most complete players I've ever seen play the game.


KD was never DPOY candidate in GSW.

During 2018, his DRPM was -0.65, 357th out of 521 players in the NBA and 59th out of small forwards

http://www.espn.com/nba/statistics/rpm/_/page/9/sort/DRPM

DarkXaero wrote:OP, why do you hate KD so much?


I don't hate KD, I'm just being objective here.

IzzyT wrote:OP,

No one needs any stats, especially not DBPM, to tell that Kevin Durant is a much better defender than James Harden. I don’t think many people are going to be very interested in a math, deep-dive comparison on both players.

KD peaked in GS. Excluding his time there excludes his peak.


KD definitely peaked in GSW as a player, although Harden would also get inflated numbers playing with Curry & Klay.

People is discreding KD's rings anyway, so why suddenly give credit for the stats KD was putting up?

You can't eat your cake and have it

When both Harden & KD didn't have a stacked deck, Harden was better than KD & the stats proves it.

Run DLC wrote:KD is still better. I will say this though, KD will have the better career, but Harden is going to end up with the better we’ll-rounded numbers. If Harden wins a ring or two, an argument can be made for him being on par with KD.


Harden's scoring is equal with KD, but has better TS%. And Harden is superior playmaker, how does it make KD better?

I do also think KD's career is better than Hardens, but only due to joining GSW.

LOUiS-D wrote:If people are questioning whether an MVP and future hall of famer is better than you, you're probably pretty damn good. They're both masters. I have no shade to throw.


Kawhi has no MVP & only 55% HOF probability (barely above Blake Griffin's 54% HOF, a player who won't be a HOFer).

And I'd still rate Kawhi over KD.

Karate Diop wrote:I love how defense doesn't matter when KD is compared to another player... Yes Durant is better than Harden.

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Harden's DBPM is higher than KD, which I already stated in my thread lol.

Also, a good offensive player that's average defensively is always going to more valuable than a good defensive player that's average offensively. Its just too much of a cliche to say "defense is half of the game" because its not. Harden during his worst defensive years was a better player than Draymond Green for example.

PhilBlackson wrote:I'll gladly take KD over the biggest choking "superstar" maybe of all time.


You do realize KD himself was a choker, even blowing a 3-1 lead to GSW. The same team KD joined in very next off season.

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DaT WaVeY RiCaN wrote:Harden most likely will be better than ruptured acchillies kd from now on


That's not much of accomplishment. Harden was objectivly better playoff performer than OKC's version of KD.

Nobody is backing up their arguments with stats on why KD > Harden other than anedoctal evidence :lol: :lol: :lol:
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Re: Is Kevin Durant overrated when people says he's clearly above James Harden? 

Post#38 » by Drygon » Fri Oct 16, 2020 4:51 pm

LarsV8 wrote:Roughly equivalent caliber players.

No one will admit since they are completely biased.

And lol at the playoff numbers, they are almost identical.

Only difference is Harden lost to better teams, Durant lost to worse teams. :lol:


It just shows how much KD's 2 "worthless" rings has improved his legacy & will go down as top 15 player in NBA history.

Nobody talked about KD reaching those heights in all-time ranking during his days at OKC.
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Re: Is Kevin Durant overrated when people says he's clearly above James Harden? 

Post#39 » by QMaster » Sun Oct 18, 2020 1:56 am

Can't stand KD but he is clearly a tier ahead of Harden. Harden, Westbrook and PG would make a fine playoff big 3 one would think

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Re: Is Kevin Durant overrated when people says he's clearly above James Harden? 

Post#40 » by Clay Davis » Sun Oct 18, 2020 1:59 am

Yesss OP
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