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RealGM Top 25 Final Player Rankings 2023-24 (and six-year averages)

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RealGM Top 25 Final Player Rankings 2023-24 (and six-year averages)

Posted: Sun Sep 24, 2023 2:13 am
by ElectricMayhem
Thank you all for your participation. Your votes mattered. You mattered. The following is the final RealGM Top 25 Rankings. They describe how good RealGM voters believe these players will be in the upcoming 2023-24 season:

RealGM Top 25 Players 2023-24:
1) Nikola Jokic (DEN) - 72%
2) Giannis Antetokounmpo (MIL) - 61%
3) Luka Doncic (DAL) - 42%
4) Steph Curry (GSW) - 42%
5) Joel Embiid (PHI) - 43%
6) Jayson Tatum (BOS) - 45%
7) Shai Gilgeous-Alexander (OKC) - 37%
8) Kevin Durant (PHX) - 34%
9) LeBron James (LAL) - 31%
10) Jimmy Butler (MIA) - 30%
11) Anthony Davis (LAL) - 34%
12) Devin Booker (PHX) - 43%
13) Kawhi Leonard (LAC) - 39%
14) Damian Lillard (POR) - 47%
15) Anthony Edwards (MIN) - 26%
16) Tyrese Haliburton (IND) - 19%
17) Paul George (LAC) - 23%
18) Donovan Mitchell (CLE) - 27%
19) Ja Morant (MEM) - 22%
20) Jamal Murray (DEN) - 31%
21) Pascal Siakam (TOR) - 19%
22) Zion Williamson (NOP) - 23%
23) Jaylen Brown (BOS) - 28%
24) Domantas Sabonis (SAC) - 26%
25) De'Aaron Fox (SAC) - 26%

Players that made the final vote (in order of votes received in final poll): Trae Young, Bam Adebayo, Kyrie Irving, Lauri Markkanen, Mikal Bridges, Jalen Brunson, Karl-Anthony Towns, James Harden, Jaren Jackson Jr.

Players entering the Top 25 list for the first time: Shai Gilgeous-Alexander, Anthony Edwards, Tyrese Haliburton, Domantas Sabonis, De'Aaron Fox
Other players entering the poll for the first time: Lauri Markkanen, Jaren Jackson Jr., Jalen Brunson, Mikal Bridges

Players outside the Top 25 for the first time: James Harden, Rudy Gobert, Chris Paul, Karl-Anthony Towns, Kyrie Irving

2018-2023 Average Rankings:

Note: Players are assigned with a ranking of 30 if they made the poll but were not selected. They were assigned a ranking of 40 if they did not make the poll.

I am showing the data in 2 ways. The top data set shows the data as is, the bottom data set switches out 40 rankings for nothing in years before or after the players' careers. Each method tells a different story.

Data Set 1: Players Receive a ranking of 30 if they made the poll but were not selected. They are assigned a 40 if they did not make the poll, regardless of whether they were in the NBA or not.
Spoiler:
Image
(Click twice to enlarge)

1. Firstname Lastname: AverageRank (2018rank, 2019rank, 2020rank, 2021rank, 2022rank, 2023rank)

1. Giannis Antetokounmpo: 2.5 (7, 2, 2, 1, 1, 2)
2. LeBron James: 4 (1, 3, 1, 3, 7, 9)
3. Stephen Curry: 4.5 (3, 4, 7, 5, 4, 4)
4. Nikola Jokic: 6 (12, 7, 8, 6, 2, 1)
5. Kawhi Leonard: 6.8 (6, 1, 4, 9, 8, 13)
T-6. Anthony Davis: 8.2 (4, 6, 5, 11, 12, 11)
T-6. Joel Embiid: 8.2 (11, 8, 13, 7, 5, 5)
8. Kevin Durant: 9.5 (2, 30, 9, 2, 6, 8)
9. Jimmy Butler: 10.8 (10, 11, 11, 13, 10, 10)
10. James Harden: 11.5 (5, 5, 6, 8, 15, 30)
11. Luka Doncic: 12.2 (40, 20, 3, 4, 3, 3)
12. Damian Lillard: 12.7 (15, 10, 10, 10, 17, 14)
13. Paul George: 14.7 (18, 9, 16, 14, 14, 17)
14. Rudy Gobert: 19.5 (14, 13, 21, 16, 13, 40)
15. Jayson Tatum: 19.8 (40, 40, 12, 12, 9, 6)
16. Devin Booker: 20.5 (30, 30, 14, 21, 16, 12)
17. Karl-Anthony Towns: 21 (19, 14, 24, 20, 19, 30)
18. Chris Paul: 21.5 (9, 25, 15, 18, 22, 40)
19. Kyrie Irving: 21.8 (16, 16, 25, 19, 25, 30)
20. Donovan Mitchell: 24.8 (30, 30, 18, 23, 30, 18)
21. Russell Westbrook: 26.7 (8, 12, 30, 30, 40, 40)
22. Pascal Siakam: 27.3 (40, 23, 30, 30, 20, 21)
23. Bradley Beal: 27.8 (40, 18, 17, 22, 30, 40)
24. Ja Morant: 28.3 (40, 40, 30, 30, 11, 19)
T-25. Ben Simmons: 28.8 (22, 22, 19, 30, 40, 40)
T-25. Trae Young: 28.8 (40, 40, 30, 15, 18, 30)
27. Jrue Holiday: 29.3 (30, 21, 30, 25, 30, 40)
T-28. Draymond Green: 30.3 (17, 15, 40, 40, 30, 40)
T-28. Zion Williamson: 30.3 (40, 40, 40, 17, 23, 22)
30. Kyle Lowry: 30.7 (20, 24, 20, 40, 40, 40)
31. Bam Adebayo: 31 (40, 40, 22, 30, 24, 30)
32. Shai Gilgeous-Alexander: 31.2 (40, 40, 40, 30, 30, 7)
33. Jaylen Brown: 32.3 (40, 40, 30, 40, 21, 23)
T-34. Victor Oladipo: 33.8 (13, 30, 40, 40, 40, 40)
T-34. Jamal Murray: 33.8 (40, 40, 23, 40, 40, 20)
36. Anthony Edwards: 34.2 (40, 40, 40, 40, 30, 15)
37. Blake Griffin: 34.5 (30, 17, 40, 40, 40, 40)
38. Kemba Walker: 34.8 (30, 19, 40, 40, 40, 40)
39. DeMar DeRozan: 35 (30, 30, 40, 40, 30, 40)
40. Klay Thompson: 35.2 (21, 30, 40, 40, 40, 40)
T-41. Khris Middleton: 35.7 (40, 40, 30, 24, 40, 40)
T-41. Domantas Sabonis: 35.7 (40, 40, 40, 30, 40, 24)
43. LaMarcus Aldridge: 35.8 (25, 30, 40, 40, 40, 40)
44. Tyrese Haliburton: 36 (40, 40, 40, 40, 40, 16)
45. Brandon Ingram: 36.7 (40, 40, 30, 40, 30, 40)
46. John Wall: 37.2 (23, 40, 40, 40, 40, 40)
47. Al Horford: 37.3 (24, 40, 40, 40, 40, 40)
48. De'Aaron Fox: 37.5 (40, 40, 40, 40, 40, 25)
T-49 (38.3)
DeMarcus Cousins (30, 40, 40, 40, 40, 40)
Gordon Hayward (30, 40, 40, 40, 40, 40)
Kevin Love (30, 40, 40, 40, 40, 40)
Mike Conley (40, 30, 40, 40, 40, 40)
CJ McCollum (40, 30, 40, 40, 40, 40)
Nikola Vucevic (40, 30, 40, 40, 40, 40)
Kristaps Porzingis (40, 40, 30, 40, 40, 40)
Zach Lavine (40, 40, 40, 30, 40, 40)
Julius Randle (40, 40, 40, 30, 40, 40)
Darius Garland (40, 40, 40, 40, 30, 40)
Mikal Bridges (40, 40, 40, 40, 40, 30)
Jalen Brunson (40, 40, 40, 40, 40, 30)
Jaren Jackson Jr. (40, 40, 40, 40, 40, 30)
Lauri Markkanen (40, 40, 40, 40, 40, 30)


Data Set 2: Players receive a 30 ranking if they made the poll but were not selected. They receive no ranking if they were not in their professional career yet. They receive a 40 if they had started their professional career but were not ranked or in the final poll.

Spoiler:
Image
(Click twice to enlarge)

1. Firstname Lastname: AverageRank (2018rank, 2019rank, 2020rank, 2021rank, 2022rank, 2023rank) x = null year

1. Giannis Antetokounmpo: 2.5 (7, 2, 2, 1, 1, 2)
2. LeBron James: 4 (1, 3, 1, 3, 7, 9)
3. Stephen Curry: 4.5 (3, 4, 7, 5, 4, 4)
4. Nikola Jokic: 6 (12, 7, 8, 6, 2, 1)
5. Luka Doncic: 6.6 (x, 20, 3, 4, 3, 3)
6. Kawhi Leonard: 6.8 (6, 1, 4, 9, 8, 13)
T-7. Anthony Davis: 8.2 (4, 6, 5, 11, 12, 11)
T-7. Joel Embiid: 8.2 (11, 8, 13, 7, 5, 5)
9. Kevin Durant: 9.5 (2, 30, 9, 2, 6, 8)
10. Jimmy Butler: 10.8 (10, 11, 11, 13, 10, 10)
11. James Harden: 11.5 (5, 5, 6, 8, 15, 30)
12. Damian Lillard: 12.7 (15, 10, 10, 10, 17, 14)
13. Paul George: 14.7 (18, 9, 16, 14, 14, 17)
14. Rudy Gobert: 19.5 (14, 13, 21, 16, 13, 40)
15. Jayson Tatum: 19.8 (40, 40, 12, 12, 9, 6)
16. Devin Booker: 20.5 (30, 30, 14, 21, 16, 12)
17. Karl-Anthony Towns: 21 (19, 14, 24, 20, 19, 30)
18. Chris Paul: 21.5 (9, 25, 15, 18, 22, 40)
19. Kyrie Irving: 21.8 (16, 16, 25, 19, 25, 30)
20. Ja Morant: 22.5 (x, x, 30, 30, 11, 19)
21. Donovan Mitchell: 24.8 (30, 30, 18, 23, 30, 18)
22. Zion Williamson: 25.5 (x, x, 40, 17, 23, 22)
23. Trae Young: 26.6 (x, 40, 30, 15, 18, 30)
24. Russell Westbrook: 26.7 (8, 12, 30, 30, 40, 40)
25. Pascal Siakam: 27.3 (40, 23, 30, 30, 20, 21)
26. Bradley Beal: 27.8 (40, 18, 17, 22, 30, 40)
27. Anthony Edwards: 28.3 (x, x, x, 40, 30, 15)
28. Ben Simmons: 28.8 (22, 22, 19, 30, 40, 40)
29. Jrue Holiday: 29.3 (30, 21, 30, 25, 30, 40)
30. Shai Gilgeous-Alexander: 29.4 (x, 40, 40, 30, 30, 7)
31. Draymond Green: 30.3 (17, 15, 40, 40, 30, 40)
32. Kyle Lowry: 30.7 (20, 24, 20, 40, 40, 40)
33. Bam Adebayo: 31 (40, 40, 22, 30, 24, 30)
34. Tyrese Haliburton: 32 (x, x, x, 40, 40, 16)
35. Jaylen Brown: 32.3 (40, 40, 30, 40, 21, 23)
T-36. Victor Oladipo: 33.8 (13, 30, 40, 40, 40, 40)
T-36. Jamal Murray: 33.8 (40, 40, 23, 40, 40, 20)
38. Blake Griffin: 34.5 (30, 17, 40, 40, 40, 40)
39. Kemba Walker: 34.8 (30, 19, 40, 40, 40, 40)
T-40. DeMar DeRozan: 35 (30, 30, 40, 40, 30, 40)
T-40. LaMarcus Aldridge: 35 (25, 30, 40, 40, 40, x)
42. Klay Thompson: 35.2 (21, 30, 40, 40, 40, 40)
T-43. Khris Middleton: 35.7 (40, 40, 30, 24, 40, 40)
T-43. Domantas Sabonis: 35.7 (40, 40, 40, 30, 40, 24)
45. Brandon Ingram: 36.7 (40, 40, 30, 40, 30, 40)
46. John Wall: 37.2 (23, 40, 40, 40, 40, 40)
47. Al Horford: 37.3 (24, 40, 40, 40, 40, 40)
T-48. Darius Garland: 37.5 (x, x, 40, 40, 30, 40)
T-48. De'Aaron Fox: 37.5 (40, 40, 40, 40, 40, 25)
T-50. Mikal Bridges: 38 (x, 40, 40, 40, 40, 30)
T-50. Jalen Brunson: 38 (x, 40, 40, 40, 40, 30)
T-50. Jaren Jackson Jr.: 38 (x, 40, 40, 40, 40, 30)
T-53. (38.3)
DeMarcus Cousins (30, 40, 40, 40, 40, 40)
Gordon Hayward (30, 40, 40, 40, 40, 40)
Kevin Love (30, 40, 40, 40, 40, 40)
Mike Conley (40, 30, 40, 40, 40, 40)
CJ McCollum (40, 30, 40, 40, 40, 40)
Nikola Vucevic (40, 30, 40, 40, 40, 40)
Kristaps Porzingis (40, 40, 30, 40, 40, 40)
Zach Lavine (40, 40, 40, 30, 40, 40)
Julius Randle (40, 40, 40, 30, 40, 40)
Lauri Markkanen (40, 40, 40, 40, 40, 30)


Past Years' Data:
Spoiler:
https://forums.realgm.com/boards/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=2228998

RealGM Top 25 Players 2018-19:
1) LeBron James (LAL)-72%
2) Kevin Durant (GSW)-39%
3) Stephen Curry (GSW)-53%
4) Anthony Davis (NOP)-39%
5) James Harden (HOU)-45%
6) Kawhi Leonard (TOR)-50%
7) Giannis Antetokounmpo (MIL)-56%
8) Russell Westbrook (OKC)-47%
9) Chris Paul (HOU)-43%
10) Jimmy Butler (MIN)-33%
11) Joel Embiid (PHI)-37%
12) Nikola Jokic (DEN)-32%
13) Victor Oladipo (IND)-31%
14) Rudy Gobert (UTA)-62%-TIEBREAKER w Kyrie Irving (BOS)
15) Damian Lillard (POR)-32%
16) Kyrie Irving (BOS)-37%
17) Draymond Green (GSW)-31%
18) Paul George (OKC)-27%
19) Karl-Anthony Towns (MIN)-23%
20) Kyle Lowry (TOR)-31%
21) Klay Thompson (GSW)-30%
22) Ben Simmons (PHI)-35%
23) John Wall (WAS)-27%
24) Al Horford (BOS)-33%
25) LaMarcus Aldridge (SAS)-30%

RealGM Top 25 Players 2019-20:
1)Kawhi Leonard (LAC)-39%
2)Giannis Antetokounmpo (MIL)-42%
3)LeBron James (LAL)-42%
4)Stephen Curry (GSW)-48%
5)James Harden (HOU)-40%
6)Anthony Davis (LAL)-39%
7)Nikola Jokic (DEN)-33%
8)Joel Embiid (PHI)-35%
9)Paul George (LAC)-46%
10)Damian Lillard (POR)-54%
11)Jimmy Butler (MIA)-30%
12)Russell Westbrook (HOU)-26%
13)Rudy Gobert (UTA)-23%
14)Karl-Anthony Towns (MIN)-28%
15)Draymond Green (GSW)-30%
16)Kyrie Irving (BKN)-37%
17)Blake Griffin (DET)-31%
18)Bradley Beal (WAS)-24%
19)Kemba Walker (BOS)-29%
20)Luka Doncic (DAL)-37%
21)Jrue Holiday (NOP)-22%
22)Ben Simmons (PHI)-30%
23)Pascal Siakam (TOR)-41%
24)Kyle Lowry (TOR)-46%
25)Chris Paul (OKC)-32%

RealGM Top 25 Players 2020-21:
1)LeBron James (LAL) - 53%
2)Giannis Antetokounmpo (MIL) - 47%
3)Luka Doncic (DAL) - 37%
4)Kawhi Leonard (LAC) - 34%
5)Anthony Davis (LAL) - 35%
6)James Harden (HOU) - 39%
7)Steph Curry (GSW) - 33%
8)Nikola Jokic (DEN) - 42%
9)Kevin Durant (BKN) - 46%
10)Damian Lillard (POR) - 38%
11)Jimmy Butler (MIA) - 57%
12)Jayson Tatum (BOS) - 41%
13)Joel Embiid (PHI) - 59%
14)Devin Booker (PHX) - 22%
15)Chris Paul (PHX) - 24%
16)Paul George (LAC) - 21%
17)Bradley Beal (WAS) - 22%
18)Donovan Mitchell (UTA) - 22%
19)Ben Simmons (PHI) - 26%
20)Kyle Lowry (TOR) - 28%
21)Rudy Gobert (UTA) - 26%
22)Bam Adebayo (MIA) - 24%
23)Jamal Murray (DEN) - 29%
24)Karl-Anthony Towns (MIN) - 32%
25)Kyrie Irving (BKN) - 33%

RealGM Top 25 Players 2021-22:
1) Giannis Antetokounmpo (MIL) - 41%
2) Kevin Durant (BKN) - 38%
3) LeBron James (LAL) - 36%
4) Luka Doncic (DAL) - 39%
5) Stephen Curry (GSW) - 42%
6) Nikola Jokic (DEN) - 61%
7) Joel Embiid (PHI) - 32%
8) James Harden (BKN) - 47%
9) Kawhi Leonard (LAC) - 35%
10) Damian Lillard (POR) - 39%
11) Anthony Davis (LAL) - 60%
12) Jayson Tatum (BOS) - 32%
13) Jimmy Butler (MIA) - 34%
14) Paul George (LAC) - 33%
15) Trae Young (ATL) - 30%
16) Rudy Gobert (UTA) - 22%
17) Zion Williamson (NOP) - 27%
18) Chris Paul (PHX) - 26%
19) Kyrie Irving (BKN) - 29%
20) Karl-Anthony Towns (MIN) - 24%
21) Devin Booker (PHX) - 28%
22) Bradley Beal (WAS) - 35%
23) Donovan Mitchell (UTA) - 47%
24) Khris Middleton (MIL) - 45%
25. Jrue Holiday (MIL) 27%-

RealGM Top 25 Players 2022-23:
1) Giannis Antetokounmpo (MIL) - 57%
2) Nikola Jokic (DEN) - 57%
3) Luka Doncic (DAL) - 43%
4) Steph Curry (GSW) - 49%
5) Joel Embiid (PHI) - 37%
6) Kevin Durant (BKN) - 40%
7) LeBron James (LAL) - 44%
8) Kawhi Leonard (LAC) - 46%
9) Jayson Tatum (BOS) - 51%
10) Jimmy Butler (MIA) - 53%
11) Ja Morant (MEM) - 23%
12) Anthony Davis (LAL) - 28%
13) Rudy Gobert (MIN) - 24%
14) Paul George (LAC) - 19% (Tiebreaker: 62%)
15) James Harden (PHI) - 23%
16) Devin Booker (PHX) - 27%
17) Damian Lillard (POR) - 34%
18) Trae Young (ATL) - 25%
19) Karl-Anthony Towns (MIN) - 33%
20) Pascal Siakam (TOR) - 40%
21) Jaylen Brown (BOS) - 30%
22) Chris Paul (PHX) - 25%
23) Zion Williamson (NOP) - 27%
24) Bam Adebayo (MIA) - 25%
25. Kyrie Irving (BKN) - 32%

Re: RealGM Top 25 Final Player Rankings 2023-24 (and six-year averages)

Posted: Sun Sep 24, 2023 3:56 pm
by BHF
As a raps fan I would take Zion, Jaylen Brown, Sabonis and Fox over the overrated Pascal any day.

Re: RealGM Top 25 Final Player Rankings 2023-24 (and six-year averages)

Posted: Sun Sep 24, 2023 3:59 pm
by -Luke-
Thank you for all this, ElectricMayhem!

Re: RealGM Top 25 Final Player Rankings 2023-24 (and six-year averages)

Posted: Sun Sep 24, 2023 5:21 pm
by Mavrelous
Yeah, thanks for arranging this and summarizing it, great reference.

Re: RealGM Top 25 Final Player Rankings 2023-24 (and six-year averages)

Posted: Sun Sep 24, 2023 7:32 pm
by LoveMyRaps
BHF wrote:As a raps fan I would take Zion, Jaylen Brown, Sabonis and Fox over the overrated Pascal any day.


All because you're a Raps fan, doesn't mean you're not a low IQ casual.

Personal attacks are not allowed. Debate the post but don't insult the poster. -b

Re: RealGM Top 25 Final Player Rankings 2023-24 (and six-year averages)

Posted: Sun Sep 24, 2023 7:33 pm
by LoveMyRaps
Huge SGA fan - but #7 is way too high for him. Very shocking.

Re: RealGM Top 25 Final Player Rankings 2023-24 (and six-year averages)

Posted: Sun Sep 24, 2023 7:43 pm
by zero rings
Edwards at #14 is insane. I’m not sure he’s even top 30 based on his actual play on the court.

Re: RealGM Top 25 Final Player Rankings 2023-24 (and six-year averages)

Posted: Sun Sep 24, 2023 8:32 pm
by TheAlchemist23
zero rings wrote:Edwards at #14 is insane. I’m not sure he’s even top 30 based on his actual play on the court.

Media been trying to force him into superstar for 2 summers now. He was the opening betting fav to win MIP last year.

Re: RealGM Top 25 Final Player Rankings 2023-24 (and six-year averages)

Posted: Sun Sep 24, 2023 8:37 pm
by SA37
ElectricMayhem wrote:Thank you all for your participation. Your votes mattered. You mattered. The following is the final RealGM Top 25 Rankings. They describe how good RealGM voters believe these players will be in the upcoming 2023-24 season:



Thanks so much for organizing this and compiling all the data/votes. It's incredible work and a lot of fun to participate in.

Re: RealGM Top 25 Final Player Rankings 2023-24 (and six-year averages)

Posted: Sun Sep 24, 2023 8:37 pm
by SA37
zero rings wrote:Edwards at #14 is insane. I’m not sure he’s even top 30 based on his actual play on the court.


Amen.

At least people have given up on the whole Gobert nonsense.

Re: RealGM Top 25 Final Player Rankings 2023-24 (and six-year averages)

Posted: Mon Sep 25, 2023 3:45 am
by Filthadelphia
ElectricMayhem wrote:Thank you all for your participation.

No, thank YOU for holding it down. You are the man/girl/pronoun of choice. :clap: :clap:

Re: RealGM Top 25 Final Player Rankings 2023-24 (and six-year averages)

Posted: Mon Sep 25, 2023 3:52 am
by babyjax13
SA37 wrote:
zero rings wrote:Edwards at #14 is insane. I’m not sure he’s even top 30 based on his actual play on the court.


Amen.

At least people have given up on the whole Gobert nonsense.


Gobert was a top 10 regular season player by a ton of impact metrics almost every season he was with the Jazz & is the central reason why they were a playoff team with both Hayward and Mitchell. He had a down season and doesn't look like the same caliber of player he was with us.

Re: RealGM Top 25 Final Player Rankings 2023-24 (and six-year averages)

Posted: Mon Sep 25, 2023 3:53 am
by azcatz11
The only player I don't think belongs anywhere in the top 25 is Mitchell.

Re: RealGM Top 25 Final Player Rankings 2023-24 (and six-year averages)

Posted: Mon Sep 25, 2023 4:16 am
by SA37
babyjax13 wrote:
SA37 wrote:
zero rings wrote:Edwards at #14 is insane. I’m not sure he’s even top 30 based on his actual play on the court.


Amen.

At least people have given up on the whole Gobert nonsense.


Gobert was a top 10 regular season player by a ton of impact metrics almost every season he was with the Jazz & is the central reason why they were a playoff team with both Hayward and Mitchell. He had a down season and doesn't look like the same caliber of player he was with us.


That really tells you about both the limits of "impact metrics" and of Gobert's game.

My argument isn't that Gobert was a bad player with the Jazz nor that he wasn't a major reason the Jazz were successful ; my argument is he just isn't as good as people think, not now and not when he was with the Jazz.

He reminds me a lot of Dikembe Mutombo, Marcus Camby, and Ben Wallace. All very good role players, but very limited players. They were not players you could build your team around and their limitations became glaring once they got moved out of the situation that made them household names (less so in Camby's case as injuries and a lack of team success kept him from reaching Mutombo/Wallace).

I think this is similar to all the fawning over guys like Draymond Green. A very good role player, but a role player he remains. When Golden State lost Curry and Thompson, all of Green's limitations became very clear. The idea Green or Gobert are even in the top-60 is ludicrous to me.

Even if you disagree with my opinion here, I think we'd agree that paying $40M/season for Gobert is absolutely lunacy.

Re: RealGM Top 25 Final Player Rankings 2023-24 (and six-year averages)

Posted: Mon Sep 25, 2023 4:30 am
by babyjax13
SA37 wrote:
babyjax13 wrote:
SA37 wrote:
Amen.

At least people have given up on the whole Gobert nonsense.


Gobert was a top 10 regular season player by a ton of impact metrics almost every season he was with the Jazz & is the central reason why they were a playoff team with both Hayward and Mitchell. He had a down season and doesn't look like the same caliber of player he was with us.


That really tells you about both the limits of "impact metrics" and of Gobert's game.

My argument isn't that Gobert was a bad player with the Jazz nor that he wasn't a major reason the Jazz were successful ; my argument is he just isn't as good as people think, not now and not when he was with the Jazz.

He reminds me a lot of Dikembe Mutombo, Marcus Camby, and Ben Wallace. All very good role players, but very limited players. They were not players you could build your team around and their limitations became glaring once they got moved out of the situation that made them household names (less so in Camby's case as injuries and a lack of team success kept him from reaching Mutombo/Wallace).

I think this is similar to all the fawning over guys like Draymond Green. A very good role player, but a role player he remains. When Golden State lost Curry and Thompson, all of Green's limitations became very clear. The idea Green or Gobert are even in the top-60 is ludicrous to me.

Even if you disagree with my opinion here, I think we'd agree that paying $40M/season for Gobert is absolutely lunacy.


I think defensive guys like that require you to build a team around their strengths and weaknesses much more so than top 10 players, but if you do it well the payoff can be very high. Gobert is, in my opinion, the most impactful defender in the past 20 years along with Draymond. Can you build really good playoff teams around both guys? Absolutely, but you need a true top 10 guy to be a contnender. Utah didn't quite have it with Mitchell, though I will always wonder what happens if we had drafted Bane.

Gobert is what I call a 'team defender.' Some guys are elite at guarding individual players (including by others) while others are best when defensive schemes funnel entire offenses toward them, in effect, they guard the entire team. Gobert is the pinnacle of that archetype, and when it works well it really works. Minnesota, after trading D'Lo and with KAT out, is the first team who had the personnel to do this, but I'm not sure they actually committed (Wolves fans can chime in). But, just as a small illustration of what this can do to offenses:

Read on Twitter


re: the cost of paying him, I think the last two years are really rough. I disagree that paying him that much is a bad decision though, in the time that he was with Utah.

Re: RealGM Top 25 Final Player Rankings 2023-24 (and six-year averages)

Posted: Mon Sep 25, 2023 6:32 am
by BHF
LoveMyRaps wrote:
BHF wrote:As a raps fan I would take Zion, Jaylen Brown, Sabonis and Fox over the overrated Pascal any day.


All because you're a Raps fan, doesn't mean you're not a low IQ casual.

Personal attacks are not allowed. Debate the post but don't insult the poster. -b


:lol: I am the casual one, when you are sitting there and cant notice that Pascal has been stat padding for the last 2 seasons. I can bet my life on it that i have more basketball experience than you and I dont even need to know who you are.

Re: RealGM Top 25 Final Player Rankings 2023-24 (and six-year averages)

Posted: Mon Sep 25, 2023 9:28 am
by iggymcfrack
LoveMyRaps wrote:Huge SGA fan - but #7 is way too high for him. Very shocking.


He ranked somewhere between 4th and 7th last year in each of PER, WS/48, BPM, WS, and VORP, and unlike most of this list, the arrow's still pointing up on him. Last year was the first season since his rookie year he got to play for a team that was actually competing the whole season. Is it really that crazy to expect him to get at least a little bit better still at 25? I'd take him over everyone who's ranked below him and honestly I'd probably take him over Curry as well. Even if Curry's maybe still 5% better when they're both at their peak in a key moment, I think the likelihood of SGA being on the floor makes him more valuable. Even with all the time the Thunder have shut him down early due to tanking, he's still played 21% more games than Steph since entering the league.

Re: RealGM Top 25 Final Player Rankings 2023-24 (and six-year averages)

Posted: Mon Sep 25, 2023 9:33 am
by iggymcfrack
Honestly, overall this was a shockingly good list. Way better than anything posted anywhere else on the internet. Only real quibbles I'd have are Edwards being so high, Ja being ranked, and Brunson being left out. Pretty much everything else was very reasonable though. A job well done by the forum.

Re: RealGM Top 25 Final Player Rankings 2023-24 (and six-year averages)

Posted: Mon Sep 25, 2023 11:08 am
by Tim_Hardawayy
Thank you for doing this, interesting to see how people feel about various players.

From a Heat fan perspective, I think Bam not making top 25 explains pretty well why they tend to get underrated most seasons. I get why, he’s in an awkward spot where he hasn’t completely made the jump to superstar, but he’s no longer really unknown or young enough to get that “potential” boost that I think a few guys ahead of him are getting. Still think he’s being overlooked a bit though, he looked really good this past postseason.

Re: RealGM Top 25 Final Player Rankings 2023-24 (and six-year averages)

Posted: Mon Sep 25, 2023 11:45 am
by The Number 9
Thank you for doing it.
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