So Ginobili is penalized for playing for a good team (with another good player in his position) and a coach that uses his players wisely during the regular season .MaNs1 wrote:Scalabrine wrote:Ginobli is overrated, one of the reasons for this is that he plays less minutes than other players, i think thats a BS reason, hes an energy player, and if he were to play 35+ minutes consistently like other players on the list he wouldnt be as effective, not to mention hes the third option on offense and is able to get off shots much easier than the other players above him who are all number 1 options.
If Ginobili's stats mean jack because of the minutes he plays i guess that Duncan should get some burn for this as well as he plays only 4.5 more mpg than ginobili without a player as good as Finley in his position.Apparently this is not because Popovic doesn't want to tear his players off (especially during the regular season) but because of their shortcomings.
The argument that someone's stats are padded because he plays for a good team (Not with a good Playmaker,with a good team) have been used only against Ginobili.Generally it goes the other way around....
Anyway though.Lets say that Ginobili paddes his stats because of his low minutes and because he plays with Duncan(His stats with and without Duncan do not suggest something like this but whatever.I don't have them right now but they have been brought up in another thread about Ginobili earlier this year.I hope someone can bring them to contribute in this conversation).
Even if you are right about this and Ginobili drops dead after 30something minutes.His drop-off if he played 4.5 more mpg would be so HUGE that suggests JJ is better than him?
I dont think you have noticed the per40 numbers that nate presented so take another look ..
Player PTS REB AST STL BLK TO eFG% TS% PER
ginobili,man 27.1 6.6 5.8 2.5 0.6 3.8 .518 .592 24.9
johnson,joe 21.9 4.1 5.4 0.9 0.1 2.5 .467 .521 16.8
The statistical advantage of Ginobili is pretty much insane.He KILLS him in every statistical category except TO's.
Even if you think that PER is a really flawed stat(which is) you can't ignore a difference of 8.1 points.For some perspective the carreer difference in PER between Jordan and Allen Iverson is 6.4 points.
Then you add whatever stats and PER does not include like defense ,intangibles ,clutch play etC ...
Well Ginobili is pretty much notorious for each one of them.
He is regularly amongst the leaders in every defensive stat out there and he is generally considered a top-tier wing defender while JJ is just slightly above average.
He is also considered a great team guy and a leader that have won everywhere that he has played.He has the wins in every level to back his case while JJ was like the 4th best player in Suns and then he was traded for Diaw and Suns not only did not lose a step but improved.From then on he plays in a losing team which especially this year is underachieving despite supposedly having all this "talent".
Now considering their clutch play.I suppose that as a member in bball forum you have watched the recent PO's .The appereances that Manu has made in these games speak for their own for his clutch factor...
I really would like to read your reasoning behind placing JJ 3 (!) spots higher than Manu in your SG "analysis".[/quote]
ive already said it but ill say it again to make you feel special...
You failed to realize again the point i was making, then you bring in per 40 minute average which is my point, stats like that are stupid, Ginobli is an energy player, Pop is a greqat coach and realizes that if he keeps Ginobli in for 35 minutes per game like the players I listed around him then he will be less effective and less consistent. I didnt penalize Ginobli, but I also didnt assume that if he were given the minutes Johnson gets, he would be better, i rated him for how he is without assuming what he would be if...
I also know that Johnson is the main (really the only) consistent offensive option on the over achieving Hawks. That makes it much tougher for him to score than it does for Ginobli who comes off the bench to team up with Duncan and Parker. How can you say a player that is the number 1 option on his team and gets doubled and has all defensive eyes on him every time he has the ball is worse than a third option. Your not giving Johnson enough credit take your homer goggles off please.
