Half Way Through: Top 25 Shooting Guards

[TAI8]

Ginobili is top 5.

[Flash is the Future]

Kobe Bryant
Dwyane Wade
Allen Iverson
Tracy McGrady
Manu Ginobili
Vince Carter
Brandon Roy
Joe Johnson
Michael Redd
Ray Allen
Rip Hamilton

[Derekman]

Kobe and AI should be 1 and 2 on everybodys lists. Third comes Wade and after that any combination of players can be taken from 4-10.

[Scalabrine]

Ginobli is overrated, one of the reasons for this is that he plays less minutes than other players, i think thats a BS reason, hes an energy player, and if he were to play 35+ minutes consistently like other players on the list he wouldnt be as effective, not to mention hes the third option on offense and is able to get off shots much easier than the other players above him who are all number 1 options.

[Scalabrine]

Wade has missed alot of time this season and has been hurt, hes also currently playing for the worst team in the league, also the Heat have terrible 4th quarter stats (when healthy Wade is at his best) and is a major reason for their lack of success.

[Scalabrine]

Wade has missed alot of time this season and has been hurt, hes also currently playing for the worst team in the league, also the Heat have terrible 4th quarter stats (when healthy Wade is at his best) and is a major reason for their lack of success.

[TAI8]

Ginobili shouldn't be penalized for doing his job in Pop's system. He is benched behind Finley and still manages to outproduce him by a mile. This is saying something. Ginobili doesn't play more than 30 min a game, but he could as shown in his '05 postseason campaign and he was probably the most integral player for their third title that year. He is one of teh most efficient players to come off the bench and comes up huge in late game scenarios. Most importantly, he is crucial to the Spurs's success. JJ, Redd, and Carter are not better than Gino this year. All three of them are on losing teams and two of them are underperforming while the third is wanted out by most of his team's fans.

[Scalabrine]

when did a penalize him?

im rating him for his role on the Spurs I think hes overrated because people think he would be better if he played more minutes. And then just assume that hes better.

[WadeKnicks2010]

Kobe
Wade
Iverson
Roy
Ginobili

the rest don't really matter but

Kevin Martin (damn did he improve this year!)
Joe Johnson
Rip Hamilton
Vince Carter
Michael Redd

[Patterns]

-= original quote snipped =-



It's what he did in Colorado that makes him a bitch.

Its ok man. Let it go. The Kings will one day make the playoffs again and face the Lakers. You will have your chances to beat us then.

But if it lets you sleep better, then you can exclude Kobe from the list.

[Kabookalu]

I think Ginobili is top 5 material. I've liked him ever since he destroyed Detroit's defenses in the finals and undeservedly didn't get his finals MVP. And Parker should be higher. Very good at scoring off of screens and is a great spot up shooter. Also a good defender to boot, I think he at least deserves to be above McCants and Bell.

[halfHAVOC]

put jrich and crawford over VC this yr.

[Flash is the Future]

Wade has missed alot of time this season and has been hurt, hes also currently playing for the worst team in the league, also the Heat have terrible 4th quarter stats (when healthy Wade is at his best) and is a major reason for their lack of success.

Wade's our reason for lack of 4th quarter success?

You say this after last game Wade scored the last 18 Miami points of the game vs. the Cavs. Wade's not why we're bad in the 4th quarter. If you actually watched the games, you'd know that Ricky Davis's chucks down the stretch of the game is why we've lost so many close games.

[nate33]

Here are the pace-adjusted per-40 numbers for the top 30 guards ranked by PER. This is not my final ranking, they're just numbers to contribute to the debate:

Code: Select all

Player        PTS  REB  AST  STL  BLK   TO eFG%  TS%  PER
ginobili,man 27.1  6.6  5.8  2.5  0.6  3.8 .518 .592 24.9
bryant,kobe  28.0  6.0  5.2  2.1  0.4  3.3 .490 .560 24.0
wade,dwyane  26.9  4.5  7.3  2.0  0.8  4.6 .475 .552 23.3
martin,kevin 25.6  5.0  1.9  1.5  0.1  2.3 .524 .618 21.7
iverson,alle 24.0  2.6  6.1  1.8  0.2  2.9 .483 .565 21.3
mcgrady,trac 26.0  5.5  5.9  1.3  0.6  2.7 .479 .513 20.9
redd,michael 24.7  5.1  3.9  1.1  0.2  2.7 .499 .572 20.4
hamilton,ric 22.6  3.9  5.2  1.2  0.2  2.3 .536 .572 19.8
roy,brandon  21.7  5.1  6.4  1.0  0.2  2.1 .488 .538 19.8
maggette,cor 23.3  6.6  3.1  1.3  0.1  3.3 .485 .579 18.4
carter,vince 22.2  5.7  5.2  0.9  0.4  2.6 .497 .553 18.3
iguodala,and 19.7  5.8  4.8  2.3  0.6  3.2 .474 .535 18.2
brewer,ronni 16.6  3.8  2.8  2.6  0.2  1.4 .552 .605 18.0
richardson,j 21.8  5.9  3.4  1.3  0.8  2.3 .516 .540 17.2
johnson,joe  21.9  4.1  5.4  0.9  0.1  2.5 .467 .521 16.8
salmons,john 18.0  5.3  3.6  1.5  0.5  3.0 .539 .592 16.7
allen,ray    19.5  4.3  3.3  1.1  0.1  1.8 .509 .565 16.5
miller,mike  17.0  7.0  4.0  0.5  0.3  3.0 .616 .646 15.8
gordon,ben   22.7  4.1  3.3  1.0  0.1  2.6 .474 .532 15.6
crawford,jam 19.7  2.8  4.6  1.1  0.1  2.8 .482 .537 15.3
jackson,step 19.7  4.4  4.0  1.3  0.5  3.1 .461 .517 14.6
parker,antho 15.8  5.2  2.6  1.3  0.2  1.2 .560 .579 14.5
gibson,danie 15.0  3.0  3.4  1.2  0.3  2.0 .594 .623 13.1
webster,mart 15.5  5.9  2.2  0.7  0.6  1.6 .515 .547 12.5
jaric,marko  12.4  4.2  6.1  1.7  0.7  3.1 .470 .512 12.4
mobley,cutti 15.1  3.7  3.6  0.9  0.6  1.8 .473 .522 12.3
green,willie 18.3  3.9  2.8  1.0  0.3  2.4 .470 .497 12.2
davis,ricky  16.0  4.8  3.3  1.2  0.1  2.6 .488 .520 11.8
stevenson,de 12.8  4.1  4.1  1.0  0.3  1.8 .479 .517 11.7
bell,raja    13.7  3.9  2.4  1.0  0.5  0.9 .517 .539 11.1

[Scalabrine]

-= original quote snipped =-


Wade's our reason for lack of 4th quarter success?

You say this after last game Wade scored the last 18 Miami points of the game vs. the Cavs. Wade's not why we're bad in the 4th quarter. If you actually watched the games, you'd know that Ricky Davis's chucks down the stretch of the game is why we've lost so many close games.

what are you reading buddy?

I quite clearly said the Heats terrible 4th quarter numbers are the biggest reason their record is the way it is. Wade is known as the 4th quarter hero, the guy that will come through during crunch time when its needed most. That used to be Wades best asset, his ability to single handedly give his team a victory by dominating 4th quarters and clutch situations.

[WadeKnicks2010]

Anyone HATE Vince Carter's play this season? Its so uninspiring, lazy, and selfish.. Plus he doesn't have the skills anymore it seems to still succeed with it. I mean he's still got great talent but sheesh, add something new to your game to compensate for your declining athleticism! Team concept!

I was being kind putting him in the top 10.

[Kabookalu]

Anyone HATE Vince Carter's play this season? Its so uninspiring, lazy, and selfish.. Plus he doesn't have the skills anymore it seems to still succeed with it. I mean he's still got great talent but sheesh, add something new to your game to compensate for your declining athleticism! Team concept!

I was being kind putting him in the top 10.

Raptors fan here...not surprised at all.

[a-rod]

Anyone HATE Vince Carter's play this season? Its so uninspiring, lazy, and selfish.. Plus he doesn't have the skills anymore it seems to still succeed with it. I mean he's still got great talent but sheesh, add something new to your game to compensate for your declining athleticism! Team concept!

I was being kind putting him in the top 10.

20ppg.5rpg.5apg, 46%FG, 36%3p, thats not bad for a guy lost his athletic ability.

[MaNs1]

Ginobli is overrated, one of the reasons for this is that he plays less minutes than other players, i think thats a BS reason, hes an energy player, and if he were to play 35+ minutes consistently like other players on the list he wouldnt be as effective, not to mention hes the third option on offense and is able to get off shots much easier than the other players above him who are all number 1 options.

So Ginobili is penalized for playing for a good team (with another good player in his position) and a coach that uses his players wisely during the regular season .

If Ginobili's stats mean jack because of the minutes he plays i guess that Duncan should get some burn for this as well as he plays only 4.5 more mpg than ginobili without a player as good as Finley in his position.Apparently this is not because Popovic doesn't want to tear his players off (especially during the regular season) but because of their shortcomings.

The argument that someone's stats are padded because he plays for a good team (Not with a good Playmaker,with a good team) have been used only against Ginobili.Generally it goes the other way around....


Anyway though.Lets say that Ginobili paddes his stats because of his low minutes and because he plays with Duncan(His stats with and without Duncan do not suggest something like this but whatever.I don't have them right now but they have been brought up in another thread about Ginobili earlier this year.I hope someone can bring them to contribute in this conversation).

Even if you are right about this and Ginobili drops dead after 30something minutes.His drop-off if he played 4.5 more mpg would be so HUGE that suggests JJ is better than him?

I dont think you have noticed the per40 numbers that nate presented so take another look ..

Player PTS REB AST STL BLK TO eFG% TS% PER
ginobili,man 27.1 6.6 5.8 2.5 0.6 3.8 .518 .592 24.9
johnson,joe 21.9 4.1 5.4 0.9 0.1 2.5 .467 .521 16.8

The statistical advantage of Ginobili is pretty much insane.He KILLS him in every statistical category except TO's.

Even if you think that PER is a really flawed stat(which is) you can't ignore a difference of 8.1 points.For some perspective the carreer difference in PER between Jordan and Allen Iverson is 6.4 points.

Then you add whatever stats and PER does not include like defense ,intangibles ,clutch play etC ...

Well Ginobili is pretty much notorious for each one of them.

He is regularly amongst the leaders in every defensive stat out there and he is generally considered a top-tier wing defender while JJ is just slightly above average.

He is also considered a great team guy and a leader that have won everywhere that he has played.He has the wins in every level to back his case while JJ was like the 4th best player in Suns and then he was traded for Diaw and Suns not only did not lose a step but improved.From then on he plays in a losing team which especially this year is underachieving despite supposedly having all this "talent".

Now considering their clutch play.I suppose that as a member in bball forum you have watched the recent PO's .The appereances that Manu has made in these games speak for their own for his clutch factor...

I really would like to read your reasoning behind placing JJ 3 (!) spots higher than Manu in your SG "analysis".

[Scalabrine]

Ginobli is overrated, one of the reasons for this is that he plays less minutes than other players, i think thats a BS reason, hes an energy player, and if he were to play 35+ minutes consistently like other players on the list he wouldnt be as effective, not to mention hes the third option on offense and is able to get off shots much easier than the other players above him who are all number 1 options.

So Ginobili is penalized for playing for a good team (with another good player in his position) and a coach that uses his players wisely during the regular season .

If Ginobili's stats mean jack because of the minutes he plays i guess that Duncan should get some burn for this as well as he plays only 4.5 more mpg than ginobili without a player as good as Finley in his position.Apparently this is not because Popovic doesn't want to tear his players off (especially during the regular season) but because of their shortcomings.

The argument that someone's stats are padded because he plays for a good team (Not with a good Playmaker,with a good team) have been used only against Ginobili.Generally it goes the other way around....


Anyway though.Lets say that Ginobili paddes his stats because of his low minutes and because he plays with Duncan(His stats with and without Duncan do not suggest something like this but whatever.I don't have them right now but they have been brought up in another thread about Ginobili earlier this year.I hope someone can bring them to contribute in this conversation).

Even if you are right about this and Ginobili drops dead after 30something minutes.His drop-off if he played 4.5 more mpg would be so HUGE that suggests JJ is better than him?

I dont think you have noticed the per40 numbers that nate presented so take another look ..

Player PTS REB AST STL BLK TO eFG% TS% PER
ginobili,man 27.1 6.6 5.8 2.5 0.6 3.8 .518 .592 24.9
johnson,joe 21.9 4.1 5.4 0.9 0.1 2.5 .467 .521 16.8

The statistical advantage of Ginobili is pretty much insane.He KILLS him in every statistical category except TO's.

Even if you think that PER is a really flawed stat(which is) you can't ignore a difference of 8.1 points.For some perspective the carreer difference in PER between Jordan and Allen Iverson is 6.4 points.

Then you add whatever stats and PER does not include like defense ,intangibles ,clutch play etC ...

Well Ginobili is pretty much notorious for each one of them.

He is regularly amongst the leaders in every defensive stat out there and he is generally considered a top-tier wing defender while JJ is just slightly above average.

He is also considered a great team guy and a leader that have won everywhere that he has played.He has the wins in every level to back his case while JJ was like the 4th best player in Suns and then he was traded for Diaw and Suns not only did not lose a step but improved.From then on he plays in a losing team which especially this year is underachieving despite supposedly having all this "talent".

Now considering their clutch play.I suppose that as a member in bball forum you have watched the recent PO's .The appereances that Manu has made in these games speak for their own for his clutch factor...

I really would like to read your reasoning behind placing JJ 3 (!) spots higher than Manu in your SG "analysis".[/quote]

ive already said it but ill say it again to make you feel special...

You failed to realize again the point i was making, then you bring in per 40 minute average which is my point, stats like that are stupid, Ginobli is an energy player, Pop is a greqat coach and realizes that if he keeps Ginobli in for 35 minutes per game like the players I listed around him then he will be less effective and less consistent. I didnt penalize Ginobli, but I also didnt assume that if he were given the minutes Johnson gets, he would be better, i rated him for how he is without assuming what he would be if...

I also know that Johnson is the main (really the only) consistent offensive option on the over achieving Hawks. That makes it much tougher for him to score than it does for Ginobli who comes off the bench to team up with Duncan and Parker. How can you say a player that is the number 1 option on his team and gets doubled and has all defensive eyes on him every time he has the ball is worse than a third option. Your not giving Johnson enough credit take your homer goggles off please.