RealGM 2017 Top 100 List: #6

[Dr Positivity]

1st Vote: Shaquille O'Neal
2nd Vote: Wilt Chamberlain

This a difficult one for me. I have Shaq/Wilt/Magic/Bird/Kobe/Hakeem all in the same ballpark and I am having a hard time ranking them. The reason I went with Shaq first is that I trust his peak the most. I do feel both my picks in terms of being face of the franchise probably have actually the most issues out of the rest of the deserving candiates this high, but I can't deny their dominance.

I have Wilts longevity better, which typically for me is enough to have him ahead when everything else is close (which it is) but I'm choosing Shaq because I feel like he had more of a mean streak in terms of imposing himself to win. Shaq could clown around, be a diva---but once he began to enter his peak, if it was a big game you can count on him being the best player on the court -- against anyone and he would do it in incredible fashion over and over and over. I feel like that was Shaqs best quality, he may have been able to impose himself more than anyone in a 3 to 5 year streak in the playoffs. While he has some durability concerns, he was still typically healthy enough to win his team enough games to get into the playoffs, and from there he typically showed up and played through whatever injuries he had lingering.

I want to touch on KG again, as I did before in I believe the #3 thread. I really feel
like I am hating on KG but I really like him as a player (whats not to like? which is maybe partly for his ranking reach?) I would be reacting this way if people were arguing for Barkley, Both Malones, Etc this high ie: great players but great players that just dont deserve to be this high.

KG was really really good, but he won one championship with Boston in 4-5 possible years, its great but hardly better than what others have done that have not been voted in. I know its not all about rings, winning, etc but he also has some production shortcomings as well. I just dont get it, there is a lot of thought and research that people are putting in backing KG and its really good stuff but its ignoring a lot of simple and basic facts that occured, and it occured really recently. I watched KG a lot, he was a player I really wanted on my team, but I never even felt like he was the best player in the league except perhaps 03-04, where he certainly played like the best player in the league, but I still probably didnt feel like he was the very best when push came to shove. So in hindsight we have these wonderful impact type stats that show us all the MVP voters were wrong most of his career (he was only top 5 MVP voting half the time as more than a handful of other candiates still not voted in were) I was wrong in my assessment of him, he actually was the greatest player of his era but he just had really bad teams...And when he had a great team, he won one championship. I need to ignore so much in order to rank him this high, we might as well take all impact stats we have, make a little formula with them and do a decending +\- ranking for all the ATG ranking and call it a day. My other issue with KG was his general imprint beyond the court was weak, hell Paul Pierce was more of the face of that Boston team. Anyhow, I think a lot of the arguements for KG are good, and do make me sway towards him... when you are comparing him to like level greats. CP3 has incredible impact too, but I'm not about to take arguements of him over Magic Johnson seriously in terms of a GOAT ranking.... compare him to GP, Kidd, Nash.. great! OK thats my 2cents again, Ive put in more effort bashing KG picks than defending my own :\ , so I think Ive talked about enough on this matter.

I don't think KG only winning once with the Celtics should be held against him at all, while still a high impact player he was clearly past his prime from 2010 on, none of his stats by 2010+ are close to what they used to be. KG got one chance in his prime to win one and he went 1/1.

[Tesla]

1st Vote: Shaquille O'Neal
2nd Vote: Wilt Chamberlain

This a difficult one for me. I have Shaq/Wilt/Magic/Bird/Kobe/Hakeem all in the same ballpark and I am having a hard time ranking them. The reason I went with Shaq first is that I trust his peak the most. I do feel both my picks in terms of being face of the franchise probably have actually the most issues out of the rest of the deserving candiates this high, but I can't deny their dominance.

I have Wilts longevity better, which typically for me is enough to have him ahead when everything else is close (which it is) but I'm choosing Shaq because I feel like he had more of a mean streak in terms of imposing himself to win. Shaq could clown around, be a diva---but once he began to enter his peak, if it was a big game you can count on him being the best player on the court -- against anyone and he would do it in incredible fashion over and over and over. I feel like that was Shaqs best quality, he may have been able to impose himself more than anyone in a 3 to 5 year streak in the playoffs. While he has some durability concerns, he was still typically healthy enough to win his team enough games to get into the playoffs, and from there he typically showed up and played through whatever injuries he had lingering.

I want to touch on KG again, as I did before in I believe the #3 thread. I really feel
like I am hating on KG but I really like him as a player (whats not to like? which is maybe partly for his ranking reach?) I would be reacting this way if people were arguing for Barkley, Both Malones, Etc this high ie: great players but great players that just dont deserve to be this high.

KG was really really good, but he won one championship with Boston in 4-5 possible years, its great but hardly better than what others have done that have not been voted in. I know its not all about rings, winning, etc but he also has some production shortcomings as well. I just dont get it, there is a lot of thought and research that people are putting in backing KG and its really good stuff but its ignoring a lot of simple and basic facts that occured, and it occured really recently. I watched KG a lot, he was a player I really wanted on my team, but I never even felt like he was the best player in the league except perhaps 03-04, where he certainly played like the best player in the league, but I still probably didnt feel like he was the very best when push came to shove. So in hindsight we have these wonderful impact type stats that show us all the MVP voters were wrong most of his career (he was only top 5 MVP voting half the time as more than a handful of other candiates still not voted in were) I was wrong in my assessment of him, he actually was the greatest player of his era but he just had really bad teams...And when he had a great team, he won one championship. I need to ignore so much in order to rank him this high, we might as well take all impact stats we have, make a little formula with them and do a decending +\- ranking for all the ATG ranking and call it a day. My other issue with KG was his general imprint beyond the court was weak, hell Paul Pierce was more of the face of that Boston team. Anyhow, I think a lot of the arguements for KG are good, and do make me sway towards him... when you are comparing him to like level greats. CP3 has incredible impact too, but I'm not about to take arguements of him over Magic Johnson seriously in terms of a GOAT ranking.... compare him to GP, Kidd, Nash.. great! OK thats my 2cents again, Ive put in more effort bashing KG picks than defending my own :\ , so I think Ive talked about enough on this matter.

I don't think KG only winning once with the Celtics should be held against him at all, while still a high impact player he was clearly past his prime from 2010 on, none of his stats by 2010+ are close to what they used to be. KG got one chance in his prime to win one and he went 1/1.

Yes, he was certainly past his prime but he certainly had more than one chance. Many greats won well past their primes in similar capacity. Do I hold it against him? Not really, he was such a good player and that team got as close as possible to getting 2, but I certainly am not going to ignore players that did do better. Also saying he went 1/1 is a bit crazy considering they were 120 seconds away from winning another one. I dont nessesarily think they underachieved, but for a hypothetical top 5 impact player even a few years removed from his prime I wouldnt say it was 100% best possible outcome with the roster as it seems you are suggesting.


Edit: I see you wrote 1/1 in his prime. Yes, I can agree with that, sorry its too late for me!

[Dr Spaceman]

I hope it's okay if I can jump in at this point. Garnett is getting traction and he deserves it. If people are having him more than a couple of spots behind Duncan, I think there's a problem. Dirk is also a guy I'll make a case for, I have him over Bird and probably Magic. I don't see Wilt being a candidate for me for several more spots. He's way too problematic and the best we saw from him certainly isn't better than what we saw from Shaq, who doesn't exactly have a clean record himself.

I would be intersted in hearing arguments/evidence for Dirk over Magic/Bird, because I don't quite see any.

Well, it's going to depend on your criteria of course, which I'm not sure of at this time. If you've posted them anywhere on here, that would be helpful.

But, generally speaking, Dirk has a prime that should be up there with anyone. 11 straight All Star selections, 11 straight All-NBA selections in the single most talented position in the league (competing with Duncan and Garnett), league MVP, Finals MVP, and 11 straight 50 win seasons. Dirk gave his team 11 straight seasons of deep playoff contention, pretty much exactly what Bird and Magic gave you, and he did it without a best in league supporting cast (Bird) and an owner willing to spend unprecedented money and being paired with the second best player of all time according to this board (Magic). Dirk also held on until age 35, where he was scoring 22 a game on .603 TS and a 24 PER, at which age Bird and Magic had been sitting at home for years.


Now, re: Magic specifically, I think it's important to keep in mind Magic didn't truly become MAGIC until 1987, and maybe even afterward. It's tempting to look at his career as one big block, because of the offensive dynasty and the titles and such. Magic was not a godly half court player before 85. Godly transition player, godly passer, but not in offensive GOAT territory. He wasn't a great shooter, he didn't work with his back to the basket much, and I think people would be surprised how limited his half court role was compared to Kareem. We have to be careful not to project attributes of his whole career onto individual years.

Now, Dirk. I understand I hold a little bit of a minority opinion on his offense. I think if you wanted to argue Dirk as the offensive GOAT, it would be pretty easy to do so. People generally go with the thought process, "well his individual scoring numbers are pretty comparable to your run of the mill top 10 scorer, and he's not a notable playmaker, so what's the big deal?" Well, the big deal is that despite not being a classic playmaker, his "help offense" perhaps surpasses any player we've ever seen. Consider the hyperbole with which people talk about Jordan, how he was a master at commanding the entire floor just by feigning a cut, how a screen set for Jordan meant instant defcon 0 reactions from the defense, how the defense had to bend to accommodate him more than any scorer in history. And then consider that all of those apply to Dirk.

By his late prime, Dirk was a better midrange scorer than Jordan. I firmly believe that. Off the dribble, out of the post, fading away from one leg, the degree of difficulty on his shots is second to none, and he was hitting 50+ percent off those shots some seasons. That's SO absurd. Dirk broke pick and roll defense. Walk through the scenarios. Trapping the ball ahndler is not an option for obvious reasons. Switch? Dirk posts up your guard at the nail for an easy 2 points. Go under? Dirk hits a pick and pop 3. Go over? Dirk gets to attack the rim with a head of steam. He is an unsolvable problem, and plenty of coaches have said as much. He draws so much attention around the free throw line, that defenses are willing to help away from the two highest-leverage spots on the floor (the rim and the corner) to take those looks away. Year after year after year, Dallas is near the top in corner 3s. Year after year after year, Dallas is near the top in rim efficiency. Year after year after year, Dallas is tops in offensive efficiency despite a revolving door of personnel. Even in 2017, we still talk about the "Dirk effect", how random undersized guards have career years playing next to this guy.

Now one more thing I'll say, the "playoff choker" myth and the "bad defender" myth both need to die a painful death. Both are based on the "soft euro" stereotype and both don't apply. For one, Dirk (along with Jordan) is the most consistently resilient playoff performer we've seen against top defenses. His 28/13 playoff numbers are without condition. As far as defense, he obviously had specific flaws that could be picked on, be¡tú he brought so many positives to the table as well. I know getting back in transition and boxing out aren't sexy, and to some may not even be worth discussing in this project, which is a shame, but they matter. They matter a lot. If they didn't, your coach wouldn't have been drilling it into your head since the age of 5.

Now one final thing: the absolute cream of the crop top offensive player are such because they never let up on the pressure they put on the defense. 24 seconds of unrelenting pressure. Dirk did this as well as anyone. For one thing, the entire court is within his shooting range. Anywhere he catches the ball, he's a threat to pop his J. He'd find sneaky ways to compromise the defense all the time; trailing behind the transition attack for an early 3, beating his guy down the floor to get position on the block, setting an early down screen, etc. There's nowhere to rest and nowhere to hide when your facing Dirk. He doesn't pound the ball. He doesn't take bad shots. He forces you to adapt to him, and if you don't, it's instant death. That's terrifying.

As for KG, what's his case over Shaq, Kobe, Hakeem, or even DRob?

Well, for most of those guys, the answer is that he has a serious argument as defensive GOAT, while also winning an MVP for offense at his peak. That type of portability and versatility is literally just a KG thing. As far as D Rob, KG was a much better offensive player and was better for longer to boot. As for Hakeem, well I see them as about even. Hakeem is amazing.

[70sFan]

.

Quoting you penbeast0 just as my sign-off: this might be my last post for about 3 days, so please carry the project on.

I was going to forward you some materials to sort of place my votes for me while I'm off the grid, but that wouldn't really be fair (we don't allow that for anyone else). I didn't miss a single thread in the last project, and was hoping I could do the same here, but I'm gonna have to miss the #7 thread.

Wanted to get my picks in for this one, though.
For this spot I've been flip-flopping between Wilt and Shaq (I've pretty well flip-flopped on them continually for the last 2.5 years), with an outside chance for Magic. If someone could have convinced me that Magic was actually a better defender than I thought, it might have been enough to favor him. But the consensus was pretty consistent with what I thought previously: basically a neutral in his best defensive years, at least smallish negative in lesser defensive years.
It doesn't bode well that the video provided by Blackmill of '83 Magic (stated to be one of his better defensive years) shows him making fairly frequent defensive mistakes (though sample size obviously an issue there). I'll not be upset if he did come out of no where and take either this spot or the next, but I'm not comfortable lending him my vote given the defensive short-comings and the lacking longevity. So I'm sticking with either Wilt or Shaq.

Wilt is basically the most statistically dominant (for peak or prime) player ever. My reservations with him have been with how his impact doesn't appear to stack up to his statistical output in multiple years (a couple years don't even appear particularly close). For all the ridiculous scoring numbers, we almost never see a team offense worth its salt in those years. This is in stark contrast to Shaq's career (who led multiple good, or occasionally elite, offenses). Now it's true Shaq always had some pretty good help; but it's also true that Shaq's offensive on/off, RAPM, and WOWY stats all say the same thing: that he was a juggernaut of offensive impact (basically the only center of the databall era to have had---fairly consistently in his prime---offensive impact in line with the very best perimeter offensive stars). A lot of it I think has to do with his offensive gravity, and his relentless pursuit of destroying the rim.

otoh, Wilt was the better defender, generally speaking. More consistent in the regard, likely higher defensive peak as well (though Shaq in '00 was a very nice anchor, fwiw). The couple years where all indications suggest very poor correlation of stats to impact for Wilt appear to be largely as a result of poor defensive effort.

70sFan presented a table showing him being more "switched on" defensively in the playoffs, though (not every single year, but semi-consistently so, and occasionally achieving some truly elite team defenses in the playoffs. I decided to look at some similar studies for Shaq (again assuming that---being a center---these guys influence the team defense more than any other one player).....

Playoff Defense
‘99: rs rDRTG: +2.1
Avg offense faced: +2.5 rORTG
Avg rDRTG in playoffs: +4.55
Overall defense (relative to playoff competition): +2.05

‘00: rs rDRTG: -5.9
Avg Offense faced: +2.6 rORTG
Avg rDRTG in playoffs: +4.0
Overall defense: +1.4

‘01: rs rDRTG: +1.8
Avg Offense faced: +2.4 rORTG
Avg rDRTG in playoffs: -4.8
Overall defense: -7.2

‘02: rs rDRTG: -2.8
Avg Offense faced: +2.5 rORTG
Avg rDRTG in playoffs: -1.8
Overall defense: -4.3

‘03: rs rDRTG: +1.1
Avg offense faced: +2.25 rORTG
Avg rDRTG in playoffs: +3.95
Overall defense: +1.7

‘04: rs rDRTG: -1.6
Avg offense faced: +/- 0.0 rORTG
Avg rDRTG in playoffs: -2.2
Overall defense: -2.2


....So it's a bit all over the map in these years, but overall there is a slight positive trend in playoff defensive performance (on average it improves by 0.5-0.6 below expectation based on rs performance). Not as big a shift as was seen in Wilt's data, but just putting that out there.

Shaq generally continues to be an offensive monster in the playoffs, too.
Wilt a noticeably better rebounder, though.


So I'll admit it feels a bit like a coin-flip, but I want to get a pick in before I head off the grid (and again: I'll be back sometime Monday, penbeast), so I'm just going with my gut here:

1st vote: Shaquille O'Neal
2nd vote: Wilt Chamberlain

(wish I could just make it a half vote for each, though)

Thanks for this data. Big thanks to ElGee for his graph too.

So it seems that Wilt was comfortably better defender and Shaq has clear edge as an offensive anchor. Seems exactly the same I always thought about them.

To be fair, I don't think the offensive gap is as huge as ~+5. Don't forget that Shaq played with Penny, Kobe and Wade. All three were better offensive players than anyone pre-West Wilt's teammates. Greer and Walker were great and Arizin had still strong year in 1960, but it's not the same.

I believe the gap is similar offensively and defensively. That's why I'm on Wilt side, because, although I believe in bigs offensive impact more than most posters here (for example, I'm really high on Kareem offensive impact), I don't like low impact defenders at C position. Of course, Shaq (and Moses) were too good offensively to really blame them and he (and again, Moses) showed that he could be elite defender in some separated seasons (1997, 2000, 2001 PS). Wilt wasn't GOAT in terms of defensive consistency either, but Shaq has more question marks in that aspect in his prime. He also became weak defender after 2006, so his post-2006 years doesn't help in this comparison.

All in all, it's really a matter of preference. I believe in Wilt's offense more than most and his defensive gap, along with longevity and durability (and rebounding) makes me taking The Big Dipper. Both choices are legit and I wouldn't argue with Shaq supporters.

What a shame that we don't have more 1960s games. It would help us understand better Wilt, his role, weaknesses, strengths... It would help us understand how big role his teammates played in his game. Maybe NBA will show us some footage in recent future. I hope so....

[Dr Spaceman]

Speaking of Hakeem, I would love someone to go in depth on Hakeem's pre-93 defense. It's consistently a barrier to us being able to rate him properly.

[Dr Spaceman]

What is KG T-Wolves defense ranks in the league? I don't think KG is a good anchor. He is a great complentary defensive player, in the tune of a Pip or Lebron rather than a Hakeem/D-Rob.

Look at 08. He had quality teammates instead of garbage, and had a historic defense.


Sent from my iPhone using RealGM mobile app

Problem with this is that Hakeem had weak support too, but was able to anchor great defenses despite that. For the talk of KG defensive impact, why was Minny so bad? One wouldn't expect them to be the best, but they weren't anywhere comparable to Hakeem's.

DRTG
96 Min - #20
97 Min - #15
98 Min - #23
99 Min - #11
00 Min - #12
01 Min - #16
02 Min - #15
03 Min - #16
04 Min - #6
05 Min - #15
06 Min - #10
07 Min - #21

Boston had a historically great defense in 2008, yes. But one great year does not equal TD and Hakeem or other great defensive anchors. KG was often injured after 08, and even when he was hurt they were good defensively.

Further, when we look at all-time great defensive or offensive anchors, there a clear impact shown on their teams. You pretty much never see an elite d-anchor or o-anchor have their team dip below #15 in DRtg/ORtg. #10 is very rare, and they usually are in the Top 5. KG doesn't stack up to Russell, TD, DRob, or Hakeem in this regard. Maybe around the level of Alonzo.

Right, but KG was the best offensive player in the league some of those years, which TD nor Hakeem never were. That Garnett could do both is the whole reason people would vote for him here. He was simply more focused on offense at this point in his career.

[Dr Spaceman]

I hope it's okay if I can jump in at this point. Garnett is getting traction and he deserves it. If people are having him more than a couple of spots behind Duncan, I think there's a problem. Dirk is also a guy I'll make a case for, I have him over Bird and probably Magic. I don't see Wilt being a candidate for me for several more spots. He's way too problematic and the best we saw from him certainly isn't better than what we saw from Shaq, who doesn't exactly have a clean record himself.

You think Dirk is a top 6 candidate? I get you are high on him, but my god are you overrating him. I've yet to see a convincing argument for Dirk to rank ahead of Kobe career wise. Kobe has the stroger resume to start with, and it's not like Dirk has some noticeable edge in box scores or the oh so loved RAPM. Dirk's a longevity guy and he barely has that over Kobe if at all.

I think his peak offense was as good as Shaq's and you didn't have to deal with him missing 25% of his team's games nor alienating his best teammates so yeah I think he's a candidate here.

[Gibson22]

Votes count?

[janmagn]

For the third straight time, I'm voting Hakeem Olajuwon

For me, Hakeem was MUCH more dominant than any other candidate. Yes, he won only two championships, but just look at his supporting casts. The guys he had in '94, namely Otis Thorpe, Kenny Smith, Vernon Maxwell and Mario Elie, were decent NBA players, but they weren't guys who could be the #2 guy for a championship winning team. Hakeem dominated his opposition, and if it wasn't for other superstars having better teammates, he could have multiple championships. We saw his pure dominance in '95. When David Robinson stole MVP from him, Hakeem just KILLED DRob in the playoffs. Olajuwon averaged 35/13/5 AGAINST THE MVP. Just dominant. He had one of the best moves of basketball, The Dream Shake. He was able to get great looks, because he always got the defender to doubt and off balance. His dominance continued to defense. He leads the NBA in career blocks. He averaged 3.1 blocks and 1.7 steals per game. Hakeem also stepped up his game in the playoffs, a fact that can be seen in his regural season stats versus playoffs.

A quote from Michael Jordan in 2005 interview:
"But if I had to pick a center, I would take Olajuwon. That leaves out Shaq, Patrick Ewing. It leaves out Wilt Chamberlain. It leaves out a lot of people. And the reason I would take Olajuwon is very simple: he is so versatile because of what he can give you from that position. It's not just his scoring, not just his rebounding or not just his blocked shots. People don't realize he was in the top seven in steals. He always made great decisions on the court. For all facets of the game, I have to give it to him."

Here's the link if someone wants to read the whole interview
http://www.cigaraficionado.com/webfeatures/show/id/One-on-One-with-Michael-Jordan_6189/p/2

2nd vote: Magic Johnson

[mischievous]

I hope it's okay if I can jump in at this point. Garnett is getting traction and he deserves it. If people are having him more than a couple of spots behind Duncan, I think there's a problem. Dirk is also a guy I'll make a case for, I have him over Bird and probably Magic. I don't see Wilt being a candidate for me for several more spots. He's way too problematic and the best we saw from him certainly isn't better than what we saw from Shaq, who doesn't exactly have a clean record himself.

You think Dirk is a top 6 candidate? I get you are high on him, but my god are you overrating him. I've yet to see a convincing argument for Dirk to rank ahead of Kobe career wise. Kobe has the stroger resume to start with, and it's not like Dirk has some noticeable edge in box scores or the oh so loved RAPM. Dirk's a longevity guy and he barely has that over Kobe if at all.

I think his peak offense was as good as Shaq's and you didn't have to deal with him missing 25% of his team's games nor alienating his best teammates so yeah I think he's a candidate here.

What is Dirk's case over Hakeem? His defense was as good as anyone besides Russell, and his offense was way more impacful than Dirk's defense.

[Xherdan 23]

Comes down to Magic, Hakeem, Shaq, Wilt, Bird to me. Let's compare records with HCA.

Code: Select all

 vs 50 win teams/non-50 win teams 
Wilt:     4-3 (57%)/   9-2 (82%)
Magic:    9-2 (82%)/   20-1 (95%)
Bird:     10-6 (63%)/  14-1 (93%)
Olajuwon: 4-0 (100%)/  5-2 (71%)
Shaq:     11-3 (79%)/  13-2 (87%)


Wilt 13-5 in series with HCA
Magic 29-3 in series with HCA
Bird 24-7 in series with HCA
Hakeem 9-2 in series with HCA
Shaq 24-5 in Series with HCA


Wilt with 4 league mvps, Magic with 3 league mvp's, Bird with 3 league mvp's, Shaq and Hakeem each with 1 league mvp.


1st Vote: Magic Johnson
2nd Vote: Larry Bird

I gotta say, I really don't understand why that's always your go-to criteria.
However, in terms of using the same argument for all players, you are probably the most consistent poster on this board.

If you have the time I'd like to hear why HCA performances mean this much to you.

[SideshowBob]

Comes down to Magic, Hakeem, Shaq, Wilt, Bird to me. Let's compare records with HCA.

Code: Select all

 vs 50 win teams/non-50 win teams 
Wilt:     4-3 (57%)/   9-2 (82%)
Magic:    9-2 (82%)/   20-1 (95%)
Bird:     10-6 (63%)/  14-1 (93%)
Olajuwon: 4-0 (100%)/  5-2 (71%)
Shaq:     11-3 (79%)/  13-2 (87%)


Wilt 13-5 in series with HCA
Magic 29-3 in series with HCA
Bird 24-7 in series with HCA
Hakeem 9-2 in series with HCA
Shaq 24-5 in Series with HCA


Wilt with 4 league mvps, Magic with 3 league mvp's, Bird with 3 league mvp's, Shaq and Hakeem each with 1 league mvp.


1st Vote: Magic Johnson
2nd Vote: Larry Bird

I gotta say, I really don't understand why that's always your go-to criteria.
However, in terms of using the same argument for all players, you are probably the most consistent poster on this board.

If you have the time I'd like to hear why HCA performances mean this much to you.

http://forums.realgm.com/boards/viewtopic.php?p=24679173#p24679173

[Dr Spaceman]

You think Dirk is a top 6 candidate? I get you are high on him, but my god are you overrating him. I've yet to see a convincing argument for Dirk to rank ahead of Kobe career wise. Kobe has the stroger resume to start with, and it's not like Dirk has some noticeable edge in box scores or the oh so loved RAPM. Dirk's a longevity guy and he barely has that over Kobe if at all.

I think his peak offense was as good as Shaq's and you didn't have to deal with him missing 25% of his team's games nor alienating his best teammates so yeah I think he's a candidate here.

What is Dirk's case over Hakeem? His defense was as good as anyone besides Russell, and his offense was way more impacful than Dirk's defense.

Hakeem didn't peak on both ends at the same time. 90 is one of the best defensive seasons of all time. People rave about it. Why don't they rave about 91? 92? 88? 93-95 is one of the better offensive big man peaks in history. But it's widely acknowledged his defense slipped those years, especially in the RS.

I don't want Hakeem's 93-95 stretch to be projected over his whole career. He wasn't always that guy. His effort waned, he was a hothead (to the degree he had a religious conversion and added the 'H') he feuded with management, and he's admitted he was not a great guy to be around in his 20s. He could absolutely explode, like he did in the 86 playoffs, but he could also be over aggressive, biting on fouls and having extreme tunnel vision. He didn't really "get" how an offense should flow early in his career, and would demand the ball and shoot over double teams with alarming frequency.

I don't think it's incorrect to say Dirk had a better career based on his off-peak seasons even if Hakeem peaked higher.

[Xherdan 23]

Comes down to Magic, Hakeem, Shaq, Wilt, Bird to me. Let's compare records with HCA.

Code: Select all

 vs 50 win teams/non-50 win teams 
Wilt:     4-3 (57%)/   9-2 (82%)
Magic:    9-2 (82%)/   20-1 (95%)
Bird:     10-6 (63%)/  14-1 (93%)
Olajuwon: 4-0 (100%)/  5-2 (71%)
Shaq:     11-3 (79%)/  13-2 (87%)


Wilt 13-5 in series with HCA
Magic 29-3 in series with HCA
Bird 24-7 in series with HCA
Hakeem 9-2 in series with HCA
Shaq 24-5 in Series with HCA


Wilt with 4 league mvps, Magic with 3 league mvp's, Bird with 3 league mvp's, Shaq and Hakeem each with 1 league mvp.


1st Vote: Magic Johnson
2nd Vote: Larry Bird

I gotta say, I really don't understand why that's always your go-to criteria.
However, in terms of using the same argument for all players, you are probably the most consistent poster on this board.

If you have the time I'd like to hear why HCA performances mean this much to you.

http://forums.realgm.com/boards/viewtopic.php?p=24679173#p24679173

Well, we are now 7 years after ElGee's post and JB's argument is still the same even with Jordan already voted in #1.

I don't think it's a good way to rank players or analyse basketball but I have to respect his consistency.

I'd much rather disagree with someone's criteria for ranking players (as ridiculous as it may be) than to think they're being intellectually dishonest on a basketball discussion board.

[eminence]

Hmm, not sure if anyone would have the time for this thread (I might this weekend), but I'd like to look at how much average to below average defenses generally improve in the playoffs (eg. the Wilt/Shaq situation). You always hear about defenses cranking it up in the playoffs and if the general trend is towards better playoff defenses then I'm not sure how impressive Wilt/Shaq's seasons like that really are (would have to see how they compare to the normal defensive change).

[Xherdan 23]

Now, re: Magic specifically, I think it's important to keep in mind Magic didn't truly become MAGIC until 1987, and maybe even afterward. It's tempting to look at his career as one big block, because of the offensive dynasty and the titles and such. Magic was not a godly half court player before 85. Godly transition player, godly passer, but not in offensive GOAT territory. He wasn't a great shooter, he didn't work with his back to the basket much, and I think people would be surprised how limited his half court role was compared to Kareem. We have to be careful not to project attributes of his whole career onto individual years.

As for KG, what's his case over Shaq, Kobe, Hakeem, or even DRob?

Well, for most of those guys, the answer is that he has a serious argument as defensive GOAT, while also winning an MVP for offense at his peak. That type of portability and versatility is literally just a KG thing. As far as D Rob, KG was a much better offensive player and was better for longer to boot. As for Hakeem, well I see them as about even. Hakeem is amazing.

First, the part that I didn't quote - I love everything you said about Dirk and I think he was severely underrated for most of his career. People only started to realize he was at KG/TD level in his late prime.

Now, regarding Magic I completely agree, especially this:

We have to be careful not to project attributes of his whole career onto individual years.

The thing is, that quote applies to a lot of players and you mentioned the two I have the biggest problem with - Hakeem and KG.

Don't you think that we do this exact thing when talking about their all time ranking?
Meaning, ranking Hakeem as if his entire career was '93-'94 offense and '90 defense or tlaking about '04 KG like he had that offensive game while also being '08 Celtics defensively?

Do you consider '04-'07 KG an elite defender?

[WhateverBro]

Now, re: Magic specifically, I think it's important to keep in mind Magic didn't truly become MAGIC until 1987, and maybe even afterward. It's tempting to look at his career as one big block, because of the offensive dynasty and the titles and such. Magic was not a godly half court player before 85. Godly transition player, godly passer, but not in offensive GOAT territory. He wasn't a great shooter, he didn't work with his back to the basket much, and I think people would be surprised how limited his half court role was compared to Kareem. We have to be careful not to project attributes of his whole career onto individual years.

As for KG, what's his case over Shaq, Kobe, Hakeem, or even DRob?

Well, for most of those guys, the answer is that he has a serious argument as defensive GOAT, while also winning an MVP for offense at his peak. That type of portability and versatility is literally just a KG thing. As far as D Rob, KG was a much better offensive player and was better for longer to boot. As for Hakeem, well I see them as about even. Hakeem is amazing.

First, the part that I didn't quote - I love everything you said about Dirk and I think he was severely underrated for most of his career. People only started to realize he was at KG/TD level in his late prime.

Now, regarding Magic I completely agree, especially this:

We have to be careful not to project attributes of his whole career onto individual years.

The thing is, that quote applies to a lot of players and you mentioned the two I have the biggest problem with - Hakeem and KG.

Don't you think that we do this exact thing when talking about their all time ranking?
Meaning, ranking Hakeem as if his entire career was '93-'94 offense and '90 defense or tlaking about '04 KG like he had that offensive game while also being '08 Celtics defensively?

Do you consider '04-'07 KG an elite defender?

04-07 KG is definitely an elite defender. I don't even think that point is debatable. Every single one of those Wolves teams overachieved defensively compared to their talent level on that end.

[mischievous]

I think his peak offense was as good as Shaq's and you didn't have to deal with him missing 25% of his team's games nor alienating his best teammates so yeah I think he's a candidate here.

What is Dirk's case over Hakeem? His defense was as good as anyone besides Russell, and his offense was way more impacful than Dirk's defense.

Hakeem didn't peak on both ends at the same time. 90 is one of the best defensive seasons of all time. People rave about it. Why don't they rave about 91? 92? 88? 93-95 is one of the better offensive big man peaks in history. But it's widely acknowledged his defense slipped those years, especially in the RS.

I don't want Hakeem's 93-95 stretch to be projected over his whole career. He wasn't always that guy. His effort waned, he was a hothead (to the degree he had a religious conversion and added the 'H') he feuded with management, and he's admitted he was not a great guy to be around in his 20s. He could absolutely explode, like he did in the 86 playoffs, but he could also be over aggressive, biting on fouls and having extreme tunnel vision. He didn't really "get" how an offense should flow early in his career, and would demand the ball and shoot over double teams with alarming frequency.

I don't think it's incorrect to say Dirk had a better career based on his off-peak seasons even if Hakeem peaked higher.

But has any of that stuff ever prevented him from playing at a high level or succeeding? And does he have any seasons in there where his team got upset from his own poor play like Dirk in 07 or 06?

I can say that Dirk wasn't always the same guy that we saw in 06 and 2011. Still great, but he had his issues like weaker defense earlier in his career, and even when his defense improved I don't think he was much over neutral if at all.

[Xherdan 23]

Do you consider '04-'07 KG an elite defender?

04-07 KG is definitely an elite defender. I don't even think that point is debatable. Every single one of those Wolves teams overachieved defensively compared to their talent level on that end.

I don't doubt for one second he had the ability but I remember watching him at the time and it looked more like this year's Kawhi or LeBron, not consistently amazing like '08 Celtics KG.

I think losing prime Sam Cassell really put KG in a tough spot on offense and his defense suffered in these years.

[andrewww]

KG may have been a prototype big that you'd want to build around I don't doubt that, but the number of players given a pass for not being able to carry the load is surprising to me. DIrk himself up until his late prime couldn't even back down guys like Stephen Jackson in 2007 to take advantage of his height (though admittedly his post game and jumper were at its peak in 2011 but just once did it happen in a championship run), and KG certainly had more help than people are letting on (Starbury, Gugliotta, Terrell Brandon, Sam Cassell, Latrell Sprewell) and couldn't get it done until he had Pierce and Ray Ray.

Having said that, I will continue to go with the best two-way dominant player that has shown at his peak and prime he could lead teams on championship runs while being dominant on both ends of the floor simultaneously.

The real question is whom to go with as my alternate pick between Magic/Wilt. Lots of great arguments for Wilt who gets the Kobe treatment in terms of the flaws in his game. So much so that I will change my alternate pick from Magic to Wilt.

Vote: Hakeem Olajuwon
Alternate: Wilt Chamberlain