Issues with JordansBulls's RPOY voting

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Issues with JordansBulls's RPOY voting 

Post#1 » by Benjammin » Tue Aug 10, 2010 2:36 am

JordansBulls wrote:1. Julius Erving - MVP, won Title, Led in WS and PER in the playoffs and season as well as scoring

2. Kareem - League MVP, statisically dominant, 1st team all NBA and 1st Team Defense

* Lost Game 7 of the NBA Finals at home.

3. John Havlicek - Finals MVP, 2nd in playoff Win Shares, 1st Team All NBA and 1st Team Defense

4. Dave Cowens - 4th in MVP Voting, 3rd in playoff Win Shares, 2nd Team All NBA and 2nd Team Defense

5. Walt Frazier - 6th in MVP voting, 1st team all NBA and 1st Team Defense

http://webuns.chez-alice.fr/finals/1974.htm#


Why does this not surprise me? It would be interesting to compare your voting patterns when it comes to Kareem as compared to the consensus. I wonder what that would show? There does seem to be a pattern to your voting, intentional or otherwise.
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Re: Retro POY '73-74 (ends Fri Morning) 

Post#2 » by JordansBulls » Tue Aug 10, 2010 2:57 am

Benjammin wrote:
JordansBulls wrote:1. Julius Erving - MVP, won Title, Led in WS and PER in the playoffs and season as well as scoring

2. Kareem - League MVP, statisically dominant, 1st team all NBA and 1st Team Defense

* Lost Game 7 of the NBA Finals at home.

3. John Havlicek - Finals MVP, 2nd in playoff Win Shares, 1st Team All NBA and 1st Team Defense

4. Dave Cowens - 4th in MVP Voting, 3rd in playoff Win Shares, 2nd Team All NBA and 2nd Team Defense

5. Walt Frazier - 6th in MVP voting, 1st team all NBA and 1st Team Defense

http://webuns.chez-alice.fr/finals/1974.htm#


Why does this not surprise me? It would be interesting to compare your voting patterns when it comes to Kareem as compared to the consensus. I wonder what that would show? There does seem to be a pattern to your voting, intentional or otherwise.


Who are you?

Because I vote a player who won League MVP and the Title the same year #1? Or because I don't vote a guy who lost a series with HCA #1? Or that I don't vote a guy who loses in Round 1 #1 or that doesn't make the playoffs #1?
Hell you can you look at the voting for a lot of these guys and it hasn't been consistent. I gurantee you that had any other player not made the playoffs, most of the time they wouldn't be getting ranked top 2-3 in the league.

Also this will be no different from 1969 either when West dominated but lost Game 7 of the Finals with HCA.

Anyway here is my voting when a player wins league mvp and the title the same year.



I just can't justify ranking another player ahead of a player in that season if a player ended up winning the Season MVP and NBA title the same year. To me that should be virtually unanimous.

Examples:

1961 Bill Russell
1962 Bill Russell
1963 Bill Russell
1965 Bill Russell
1967 Wilt Chamberlain
1968 Connie Hawkins (ABA)
1970 Willis Reed
1971 Kareem
1974 Julius Erving (ABA)
1976 Julius Erving (ABA)
1980 Kareem
1983 Moses Malone
1984 Larry Bird
1986 Larry Bird
1987 Magic Johnson
1991 Michael Jordan
1992 Michael Jordan
1994 Hakeem Olajuwon
1996 Michael Jordan
1998 Michael Jordan
2000 Shaquille O'neal
2003 Tim Duncan


If you want to talk about bias then check some who voted Kareem #1 in 1976 over Dr J when he didn't even make the playoffs.

Or check last year when a bunch were putting Gilmore #5 behind Kareem or others.
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Re: Retro POY '73-74 (ends Fri Morning) 

Post#3 » by penbeast0 » Tue Aug 10, 2010 3:10 am

I'm with JB on this one Benjammin, he's been fairly consistent with his HCA fixation. His voting is in line with his pattern so far without any "Jordan issues" needed to explain this year. Plus, the Kareem voting has greatly overstated his impact on team wins in my opinion; he's been getting "career" votes (not that the actual voting for MVPs doesn't do this a lot).

(Still don't see how anyone can rate him top 4 in 75 with 3 guys equal statistically plus playing 82 games AND leading their teams to outstanding seasons plus Rick Barry taking a really weak team to the title while Kareem's team finishes under .500 and out of the playoffs and he misses 15+ game.)
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Re: Retro POY '73-74 (ends Fri Morning) 

Post#4 » by Benjammin » Tue Aug 10, 2010 3:12 am

JordansBulls wrote:
Benjammin wrote:
JordansBulls wrote:1. Julius Erving - MVP, won Title, Led in WS and PER in the playoffs and season as well as scoring

2. Kareem - League MVP, statisically dominant, 1st team all NBA and 1st Team Defense

* Lost Game 7 of the NBA Finals at home.

3. John Havlicek - Finals MVP, 2nd in playoff Win Shares, 1st Team All NBA and 1st Team Defense

4. Dave Cowens - 4th in MVP Voting, 3rd in playoff Win Shares, 2nd Team All NBA and 2nd Team Defense

5. Walt Frazier - 6th in MVP voting, 1st team all NBA and 1st Team Defense

http://webuns.chez-alice.fr/finals/1974.htm#


Why does this not surprise me? It would be interesting to compare your voting patterns when it comes to Kareem as compared to the consensus. I wonder what that would show? There does seem to be a pattern to your voting, intentional or otherwise.


Who are you?

Because I vote a player who won League MVP and the Title the same year #1? Or because I don't vote a guy who lost a series with HCA #1? Or that I don't vote a guy who loses in Round 1 #1 or that doesn't make the playoffs #1?
Hell you can you look at the voting for a lot of these guys and it hasn't been consistent. I gurantee you that had any other player not made the playoffs, most of the time they wouldn't be getting ranked top 2-3 in the league.

Anyway here is my voting when a player wins league mvp and the title the same year.



I just can't justify ranking another player ahead of a player in that season if a player ended up winning both the Season and Finals MVP. To me that should be virtually unanimous.
And this from when both awards have existed.

Examples:

1961 Bill Russell
1962 Bill Russell
1963 Bill Russell
1965 Bill Russell
1967 Wilt Chamberlain
1968 Connie Hawkins (ABA)
1970 Willis Reed
1971 Kareem
1974 Julius Erving (ABA)
1976 Julius Erving (ABA)
1980 Kareem
1983 Moses Malone
1984 Larry Bird
1986 Larry Bird
1987 Magic Johnson
1991 Michael Jordan
1992 Michael Jordan
1994 Hakeem Olajuwon
1996 Michael Jordan
1998 Michael Jordan
2000 Shaquille O'neal
2003 Tim Duncan


If you want to talk about bias then check some who voted Kareem #1 in 1976 over Dr J when he didn't even make the playoffs.

Or check last year when a bunch were putting Gilmore #5 behind Kareem or others.


I appreciate your answer, aside from the rather prosaic "who are you?" comment. Your standard may be arbitrary, and not taking into account the difference in strength between the ABA and NBA at that point, but if you apply it consistently I applaud you for it. It certainly makes things much easier than analyzing a player's impact in context. If you truly believe that Dr. J had more impact offensively and defensively against weaker competition than Kareem did, counting both the regular season and the playoffs, then I am not going to convince you otherwise, regardless what I write. I am not the first to ask you about your voting patterns, so perhaps that accounts for your answer.
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Issues 2 

Post#5 » by shawngoat23 » Tue Aug 10, 2010 4:48 am

penbeast0 wrote:I'm with JB on this one Benjammin, he's been fairly consistent with his HCA fixation. His voting is in line with his pattern so far without any "Jordan issues" needed to explain this year. Plus, the Kareem voting has greatly overstated his impact on team wins in my opinion; he's been getting "career" votes (not that the actual voting for MVPs doesn't do this a lot).


I think it's pretty fair to say that JB is a fan of Michael Jordan, and while his voting pattern is sometimes different from other voters (but never in a hugely drastic way), it's also been very consistent with what he's stated for years was important to him:

1) Winning championships as the #1 guy
2) PER
3) Win shares
4) Accolades (for example, as indicated by MVP voting)

And conversely, he's always docked players pretty hard for losing with HCA, which seems counterintuitive to me, since I feel a player should be commended for overachieving in the regular season and falling short in the postseason (versus say, underachieving in the regular season AND falling short in the postseason despite efforts to step it up). Consistently applying this "losing with HCA" standard doesn't really distinguish between the two cases, but if nothing else, JB has been remarkably consistent in applying this criterion, so you can't really accuse him of being inconsistent with how he applies things.

From that perspective, his ballot makes perfect sense. Both Erving and Kareem won MVPs in their respective leagues. Both led their leagues in WS (with a slight edge to Kareem). Erving led the ABA in PER at 25.7; Kareem was 2nd in the NBA at 24.4. Both had HCA, but Erving's Nets won it all, while Kareem's Bucks lost in 7 to the Celtics in a controversial Finals.

I certainly question whether his criteria is "accurate" in identifying the best players each year, but what I do not question is his consistency in applying those criteria. He's probably more consistent than anyone else on the panel in regards to sticking with what he deems important.
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Re: Retro POY '73-74 (ends Fri Morning) 

Post#6 » by Manuel Calavera » Tue Aug 10, 2010 6:11 am

The only reason he thinks HCA is important is because Jordan never lost with it, and the only reason he thinks PER/WS are important is because it gives him an excuse when we get to Bill Russell. His "criteria" has been refined over the years by arguing with people and he's come up with an extremely convoluted way to say that Jordan is the best.

I think most people do that. Wilt Chamberlain is my GOAT and my "criteria" or whatever for determining that was probably made up to reinforce my bias. The same can probably be said for most Kobe, Magic, Bird, Kareem and Russell fans. But to actively sabotage a project because you can't stand that another player might be "greater" in some fans eyes than your favorite player is kinda sad.
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Re: Retro POY '73-74 (ends Fri Morning) 

Post#7 » by ElGee » Tue Aug 10, 2010 8:02 am

shawngoat23 wrote:
penbeast0 wrote:I'm with JB on this one Benjammin, he's been fairly consistent with his HCA fixation. His voting is in line with his pattern so far without any "Jordan issues" needed to explain this year. Plus, the Kareem voting has greatly overstated his impact on team wins in my opinion; he's been getting "career" votes (not that the actual voting for MVPs doesn't do this a lot).


I think it's pretty fair to say that JB is a fan of Michael Jordan, and while his voting pattern is sometimes different from other voters (but never in a hugely drastic way), it's also been very consistent with what he's stated for years was important to him:

1) Winning championships as the #1 guy
2) PER
3) Win shares
4) Accolades (for example, as indicated by MVP voting)

And conversely, he's always docked players pretty hard for losing with HCA, which seems counterintuitive to me, since I feel a player should be commended for overachieving in the regular season and falling short in the postseason (versus say, underachieving in the regular season AND falling short in the postseason despite efforts to step it up). Consistently applying this "losing with HCA" standard doesn't really distinguish between the two cases, but if nothing else, JB has been remarkably consistent in applying this criterion, so you can't really accuse him of being inconsistent with how he applies things.

From that perspective, his ballot makes perfect sense. Both Erving and Kareem won MVPs in their respective leagues. Both led their leagues in WS (with a slight edge to Kareem). Erving led the ABA in PER at 25.7; Kareem was 2nd in the NBA at 24.4. Both had HCA, but Erving's Nets won it all, while Kareem's Bucks lost in 7 to the Celtics in a controversial Finals.

I certainly question whether his criteria is "accurate" in identifying the best players each year, but what I do not question is his consistency in applying those criteria. He's probably more consistent than anyone else on the panel in regards to sticking with what he deems important.


Sorry, I don't see how it's been consistent at all (and I can think of a bunch of voters who have been consistent throughout). His ballot is a confusing smokescreen, other than the fact that I know who he's going to shaft before the year begins ( :wizard: )

Just look at the last 5 years:

Walton's first in 78...but he lost with HCA!? He missed the playoffs. He missed 24 regular season games. But in 1975, Kareem is left off because he misses 17 games and the playoffs. Yowzers.

Kareem (4th) does well on his checklist in 78, but presumably is leveled for winning only 45 games. Of course, he played in by far the toughest division in basketball and posted a 2.6 SRS. Who's his No. 2? George Gervin. Who won 52 games (3.2 SRS)...and lost with HCA! So maybe HCA doesn't matter? My head is starting to hurt.

Then, in 77 Erving is ahead of Kareem, despite Kareem trumping Erving in literally every JB category (MVP, PER, WS, All-NBA, All-D, Playoff stats, team record). They BOTH lost with HCA to the same team.

In 1976, Kareem again wins out in nearly every JB category, but he doesn't make the playoffs. So he's established that team record is enough to really drop someone! 7 team wins usurps WS, PER, MVP voting and All-team accolades.

But in 1975, Barry's No. 1 and McAdoo No. 2 and their teams won 48 and 49 games respectively. Huh? That's weird. So wins are not really that important if someone wins FInals MVP? My head really hurts now. Kareem doesn't make the list because of the missed 17 games AND the playoffs...So maybe it's that wins trump everything except if trumped by Finals MVP? I think it got it. :nod:

Except for 1985 (the only year I looked up because Kareem was involved), when Kareem was 4th in MVP voting (like Barry) and won Finals MVP (like Barry) and finished 5th...behind a rookie Jordan, who was 6th in MVP voting and won 38 games. THIRTY EIGHT. 24 fewer wins than Kareem's Lakers. So apparently team record and Finals MVP aren't really that important. :banghead:

Sorry, but that's not consistent.

And in 1974, we were 1 quarter/Richie Powers from Kareem winning MVP, FInals MVP and a title in the same year. But because someone did it in a weaker league, he gets "automatic" first status, which should illuminate how silly rigid rules are. What would JB have done if they BOTH met his "automatic" rule in the same year? :o

Rote application of rules doesn't work. Somebody has a back mark and they drop like a fly -- who cares if they were 200% better than the next player, they must move down the line! He lives off two stats, and I don't know if he even knows what they represent. Then he cites stuff like MVP ranking, but it's unclear how much that matters. If we wanted to base the project on a composite of MVP ranking or uninterpreted stats, I don't think we need a project. Then there's HCA...

But we're 35 years in - nothing's going to change. We know he'll give Russell 4 1st place votes and probably have Wilt and Russell slotted in weird positions in years they don't meet his "automatic" 1st rule. Just don't say he's consistent with his criteria.

PS - I went crazy with the emoticons because, at this point, I think there should be some levity to this issue, and emoticons are fun. Although I don't know what the hell this one means: :droop: This project has been fun and should stay that way, even if we disagree.
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Retro POY '73-74 (ends Fri Morning) 

Post#8 » by Warspite » Tue Aug 10, 2010 9:40 am

Best POST EVER
HomoSapien wrote:Warspite, the greatest poster in the history of realgm.
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Re: Retro POY '73-74 (ends Fri Morning) 

Post#9 » by andykeikei » Tue Aug 10, 2010 11:24 am

Warspite wrote:Best POST EVER

Agree man!! ElGee pretty much just sum it up for me.

Nothing against JB here, but "Retro POY" IMO is not a popularity contest. You don't have to defend your favorite player here. This should be a place where we all be open minded and learn more about the history of NBA, and different viewpoints to look at the players. This should not be a place where you set some silly rigid criteria so your hero could win it all, even when so many posters point out the faults in your standard. And you never reply or counter those points, so to me that just lose the whole point of creating this thread, just my $0.02.
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Re: Retro POY '73-74 (ends Fri Morning) 

Post#10 » by JordansBulls » Tue Aug 10, 2010 12:07 pm

ElGee wrote:
shawngoat23 wrote:
penbeast0 wrote:I'm with JB on this one Benjammin, he's been fairly consistent with his HCA fixation. His voting is in line with his pattern so far without any "Jordan issues" needed to explain this year. Plus, the Kareem voting has greatly overstated his impact on team wins in my opinion; he's been getting "career" votes (not that the actual voting for MVPs doesn't do this a lot).


I think it's pretty fair to say that JB is a fan of Michael Jordan, and while his voting pattern is sometimes different from other voters (but never in a hugely drastic way), it's also been very consistent with what he's stated for years was important to him:

1) Winning championships as the #1 guy
2) PER
3) Win shares
4) Accolades (for example, as indicated by MVP voting)

And conversely, he's always docked players pretty hard for losing with HCA, which seems counterintuitive to me, since I feel a player should be commended for overachieving in the regular season and falling short in the postseason (versus say, underachieving in the regular season AND falling short in the postseason despite efforts to step it up). Consistently applying this "losing with HCA" standard doesn't really distinguish between the two cases, but if nothing else, JB has been remarkably consistent in applying this criterion, so you can't really accuse him of being inconsistent with how he applies things.

From that perspective, his ballot makes perfect sense. Both Erving and Kareem won MVPs in their respective leagues. Both led their leagues in WS (with a slight edge to Kareem). Erving led the ABA in PER at 25.7; Kareem was 2nd in the NBA at 24.4. Both had HCA, but Erving's Nets won it all, while Kareem's Bucks lost in 7 to the Celtics in a controversial Finals.

I certainly question whether his criteria is "accurate" in identifying the best players each year, but what I do not question is his consistency in applying those criteria. He's probably more consistent than anyone else on the panel in regards to sticking with what he deems important.


Sorry, I don't see how it's been consistent at all (and I can think of a bunch of voters who have been consistent throughout). His ballot is a confusing smokescreen, other than the fact that I know who he's going to shaft before the year begins ( :wizard: )

Just look at the last 5 years:

Walton's first in 78...but he lost with HCA!? He missed the playoffs. He missed 24 regular season games. But in 1975, Kareem is left off because he misses 17 games and the playoffs. Yowzers.

Kareem (4th) does well on his checklist in 78, but presumably is leveled for winning only 45 games. Of course, he played in by far the toughest division in basketball and posted a 2.6 SRS. Who's his No. 2? George Gervin. Who won 52 games (3.2 SRS)...and lost with HCA! So maybe HCA doesn't matter? My head is starting to hurt.

Then, in 77 Erving is ahead of Kareem, despite Kareem trumping Erving in literally every JB category (MVP, PER, WS, All-NBA, All-D, Playoff stats, team record). They BOTH lost with HCA to the same team.

In 1976, Kareem again wins out in nearly every JB category, but he doesn't make the playoffs. So he's established that team record is enough to really drop someone! 7 team wins usurps WS, PER, MVP voting and All-team accolades.

But in 1975, Barry's No. 1 and McAdoo No. 2 and their teams won 48 and 49 games respectively. Huh? That's weird. So wins are not really that important if someone wins FInals MVP? My head really hurts now. Kareem doesn't make the list because of the missed 17 games AND the playoffs...So maybe it's that wins trump everything except if trumped by Finals MVP? I think it got it. :nod:

Except for 1985 (the only year I looked up because Kareem was involved), when Kareem was 4th in MVP voting (like Barry) and won Finals MVP (like Barry) and finished 5th...behind a rookie Jordan, who was 6th in MVP voting and won 38 games. THIRTY EIGHT. 24 fewer wins than Kareem's Lakers. So apparently team record and Finals MVP aren't really that important. :banghead:

Sorry, but that's not consistent.

And in 1974, we were 1 quarter/Richie Powers from Kareem winning MVP, FInals MVP and a title in the same year. But because someone did it in a weaker league, he gets "automatic" first status, which should illuminate how silly rigid rules are. What would JB have done if they BOTH met his "automatic" rule in the same year? :o

Rote application of rules doesn't work. Somebody has a back mark and they drop like a fly -- who cares if they were 200% better than the next player, they must move down the line! He lives off two stats, and I don't know if he even knows what they represent. Then he cites stuff like MVP ranking, but it's unclear how much that matters. If we wanted to base the project on a composite of MVP ranking or uninterpreted stats, I don't think we need a project. Then there's HCA...

But we're 35 years in - nothing's going to change. We know he'll give Russell 4 1st place votes and probably have Wilt and Russell slotted in weird positions in years they don't meet his "automatic" 1st rule. Just don't say he's consistent with his criteria.

PS - I went crazy with the emoticons because, at this point, I think there should be some levity to this issue, and emoticons are fun. Although I don't know what the hell this one means: :droop: This project has been fun and should stay that way, even if we disagree.


Yeah and you voted Kareem #1 in 1981 despite losing in round 1 to a team below .500.

In 1985 Kareem wasn't even the best player on his own team. Magic was the best player on the team and won the finals without HCA which is why he beat Bird out who lost with HCA.
In 1978 Walton had the best record but only played 2 games in the playoffs, so you can't really say he was the reason they lost the series with HCA because he didn't even play half the series.
In 1977 I clarified why Erving was 2nd already. Not going to discuss this again, but he was great in the finals as well and still managed to even win 2 games, while Kareem got swept despite having the best record in the league. Has anyone else gotten swept with the best record in the league?
In 1974 Kareem was dominant that is true, but also lost with the best record in the league in Game 7 of the NBA Finals.
And who says the ABA was weaker, I already provided a stat that showed, it was as good as the NBA.

Why don't go talk to people who ranked Kareem #1 in 1976 over Dr J when he didn't even make the playoffs.

Yeah, because it is Kareem. I guarantee you if this was someone like Karl Malone or Moses Malone in the same situation as Kareem that he wouldn't be getting #1 from all these posters with these same results year by year.



Warspite wrote:Best POST EVER


You even said in 1976 it was a travesty that Dr J didn't get unanimous and 3 posters all voted Kareem #1 that year and all were Lakers fans. But yet, I get called out for being biased.
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Re: Retro POY '73-74 (ends Fri Morning) 

Post#11 » by JordansBulls » Tue Aug 10, 2010 12:10 pm

andykeikei wrote:Agree man!! ElGee pretty much just sum it up for me.

Nothing against JB here, but "Retro POY" IMO is not a popularity contest. You don't have to defend your favorite player here. This should be a place where we all be open minded and learn more about the history of NBA, and different viewpoints to look at the players. This should not be a place where you set some silly rigid criteria so your hero could win it all, even when so many posters point out the faults in your standard. And you never reply or counter those points, so to me that just lose the whole point of creating this thread, just my $0.02.


So why are you complaining now in the project?


Manuel Calavera wrote:The only reason he thinks HCA is important is because Jordan never lost with it, and the only reason he thinks PER/WS are important is because it gives him an excuse when we get to Bill Russell. His "criteria" has been refined over the years by arguing with people and he's come up with an extremely convoluted way to say that Jordan is the best.

I think most people do that. Wilt Chamberlain is my GOAT and my "criteria" or whatever for determining that was probably made up to reinforce my bias. The same can probably be said for most Kobe, Magic, Bird, Kareem and Russell fans. But to actively sabotage a project because you can't stand that another player might be "greater" in some fans eyes than your favorite player is kinda sad.



You are the biggest hypocrite hear, these have been all your votes from 1975 to 2000 that you voted in. None of them are given any thought. There are a random 5 players that you choose, and every one of them is based off of how everyone else is voting. If you see from mine, my votes are usually from the beginning and has nothing to do with anyone else voting.

viewtopic.php?f=64&t=1044052&start=66 - 1975
viewtopic.php?f=64&t=1043154&start=84 - 1976
viewtopic.php?f=64&t=1042101&start=83 - 1977
viewtopic.php?f=64&t=1038315&start=103 - 1980
viewtopic.php?f=64&t=1021572&start=47 - 1987
viewtopic.php?f=64&t=1020700&start=104 - 1988
viewtopic.php?f=64&t=1019399&start=105 - 1990
viewtopic.php?f=64&t=1019399 - Your original post
viewtopic.php?f=64&t=1018243&start=89 - 1991
viewtopic.php?f=64&t=1014424&start=210 - 1996
viewtopic.php?f=64&t=1013034&start=91 - 1998
viewtopic.php?f=64&t=1011634&start=114 - 2000

So yeah, before you call someone out, you better get your own stuff straight.
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Re: Retro POY '73-74 (ends Fri Morning) 

Post#12 » by fatal9 » Tue Aug 10, 2010 1:15 pm

In 1985 Kareem wasn't even the best player on his own team. Magic was the best player on the team and won the finals without HCA which is why he beat Bird out who lost with HCA.

Er, there is a ton of evidence supporting that he was.

In 1974 Kareem was dominant that is true, but also lost with the best record in the league in Game 7 of the NBA Finals.

And are you really going to sit here and argue that the '74 Bucks were a better team than the Celtics, especially considering they had lost arguably their second best player right before the playoffs started? Or is context never a factor here? How about we take out Pippen and Grant right before the '92 playoff run, and if Jordan loses in game 7 of the NBA finals with HCA (assuming he even makes it past the Knicks and Cavs) while having a statistically dominant series, would you still be holding that against him? Something tells me not.
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Re: Retro POY '73-74 (ends Fri Morning) 

Post#13 » by penbeast0 » Tue Aug 10, 2010 1:27 pm

This is the second or third of these threads where a couple of people are complaining about JB's votes. You made your point earlier, now let it go, it is hijacking an interesting thread.

I am going split off those posts and put them into a separate thread then lock it. Any more complains, send them to one of the mods, don't attack him personally in this thread.
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