2021-22 RealGM All-Season Awards - Discussion Thread

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Re: 2021-22 RealGM All-Season Awards - Discussion Thread 

Post#141 » by tsherkin » Sun May 1, 2022 7:33 pm

Texas Chuck wrote:Sure feeling more and more like for me POY is a 2 man race now. It's does Giannis catch Jokic? And early evidence has me thinking yes, he does.

I thought they were clearly the 2 best RS players with apologies to Embiid as a clear 3rd and now Embiid's opportunity to gain ground is hampered.

And frankly Giannis could stranglehold this award a la Lebron for many years to come. He's just so good. He won't ever get that due here because of how he does it, but his impact is simply undeniable for me.


The thought of Giannis with a consistent jumper is terrifying to me. During the 2020 and 2022 RS, he shot it pretty well in tiny samples (especially this year), but if he can lean on that a little and replace one of those wild-ass turnover/foul/no ground gained drives a game with a quality J or two, that'd be horrific for the defense. He's a pretty special physical talent. Needs to go left more, but goodness, he's talented. And his passing looks really nice about now. Also, that Moses Malone move he pulled in today's game was hilarious and awesome.
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Re: 2021-22 RealGM All-Season Awards - Discussion Thread 

Post#142 » by LukaTheGOAT » Tue May 3, 2022 8:49 pm

Tyler Herro has a -52.8 on/off these playoffs.

The Heat are -7.8 with him and +44.5 without him (117 minutes without him).

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Re: 2021-22 RealGM All-Season Awards - Discussion Thread 

Post#143 » by jalengreen » Tue May 3, 2022 8:56 pm

LukaTheGOAT wrote:Tyler Herro has a -52.8 on/off these playoffs.

The Heat are -7.8 with him and +44.5 without him (117 minutes without him).

The hero no one needs.


he was absolutely horrendous in the first round. looked better yesterday though
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Re: 2021-22 RealGM All-Season Awards - Discussion Thread 

Post#144 » by LukaTheGOAT » Tue May 3, 2022 8:59 pm

jalengreen wrote:
LukaTheGOAT wrote:Tyler Herro has a -52.8 on/off these playoffs.

The Heat are -7.8 with him and +44.5 without him (117 minutes without him).

The hero no one needs.


he was absolutely horrendous in the first round. looked better yesterday though


Yeah, I was being sarcastic about the Heat not needing him. I believe he will be huge for their half-court offense if they want to win a title, but yeah the first round was really rough.
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Re: 2021-22 RealGM All-Season Awards - Discussion Thread 

Post#145 » by sp6r=underrated » Mon May 9, 2022 3:55 pm

LukaTheGOAT wrote:Tyler Herro has a -52.8 on/off these playoffs.

The Heat are -7.8 with him and +44.5 without him (117 minutes without him).

The hero no one needs.


This is a point I'm annoying on. I know that plus/minus is an excellent tool and essential one for player analysis. But Plus/minus needs an enormous sample size to have value.

In a small sample size it can't be the main focus of player evaluation.
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Re: 2021-22 RealGM All-Season Awards - Discussion Thread 

Post#146 » by sp6r=underrated » Mon May 9, 2022 4:01 pm

tsherkin wrote:
Texas Chuck wrote:Sure feeling more and more like for me POY is a 2 man race now. It's does Giannis catch Jokic? And early evidence has me thinking yes, he does.

I thought they were clearly the 2 best RS players with apologies to Embiid as a clear 3rd and now Embiid's opportunity to gain ground is hampered.

And frankly Giannis could stranglehold this award a la Lebron for many years to come. He's just so good. He won't ever get that due here because of how he does it, but his impact is simply undeniable for me.


The thought of Giannis with a consistent jumper is terrifying to me. During the 2020 and 2022 RS, he shot it pretty well in tiny samples (especially this year), but if he can lean on that a little and replace one of those wild-ass turnover/foul/no ground gained drives a game with a quality J or two, that'd be horrific for the defense. He's a pretty special physical talent. Needs to go left more, but goodness, he's talented. And his passing looks really nice about now. Also, that Moses Malone move he pulled in today's game was hilarious and awesome.


Yup, if Giannis ever developed a strong jumper along with slightly better decision making he'll leap from the Tier 2 level to the GOAT level.
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Re: 2021-22 RealGM All-Season Awards - Discussion Thread 

Post#147 » by eminence » Wed May 11, 2022 5:28 am

Feels like I have 7 contenders for my POY ballot at this point, which feels unusually solidified for not being through the 2nd round. Maybe a Sun can make a run, but it seems unlikely to me so far. Summarizing each of their 1st rounds, with a a brief on how I felt about their RS. No stats for tonight included.

The Man in the Clubhouse

Nikola Jokic - #1 through the RS with a bit of room to breathe, very strong 1st round as the heavy underdog. 31/13/6 @ 64.3 TS%. Team was badly overmatched all season, 48 wins was a big success and team looked competitive as the series closed out in games 3-5. Think there are still some defensive question marks and do wish he could carry just a bit higher minutes load, but hard to ask that in what was ultimately a losing battle. As the 2nd round winds down I think he's looking stronger for #1 than he was at the end of the 1st round. Any of the main challengers will have to do something big to unseat him.

Main Challengers (2-5)

Giannis Antetokounmpo - Either my #2 or #3 with Tatum through the RS. Reigning champ, so gets a bit of his evaluation shifted towards the playoffs for me. Second best shot at #1. Main piece of a great great defense and had a strong offensive round 1. 29/13/6 @ 62.5 TS%. Not so strong on offense for the second round 32/13/8 @ 48.1 TS%. Think he'll at least need to lead the Bucks to the Finals to retain the crown. Will need strong performances to get by the Celtics first though.

Jayson Tatum - Read above for RS. The up and comer I seem higher on than most. I really really liked his RS. Ton of minutes, good scoring, great defense. Came out with a huge 1st round 30/5/7 @ 61.6 TS% while sweeping a team that felt more threatening than your average low seed. Also struggling offensively in the defensive war with Milwaukee 23/6/6 @ 49.6 TS%. Al Horford saved his bacon in game 4, probably can't have any of those going forward and expect to rise any further.

Stephen Curry - 4/5 for the RS with Embiid. Slid a bit as the RS went on, but along with Giannis has a bit of a heavier post season slant for me due to past success. 28/3/5 @ 64.1 TS% in a series where he was being worked back in a secure series win wasn't bad at all in round 1. 28/5/7 @ 58.4 TS% in round 2 is another solid performance in round 2 to date, no slippage there. A bit unique as the only real traditional guard contender this season. I consider him the most likely to rise, though #2 may be his ceiling.

Joel Embiid - Probably give him the slight edge for RS over Curry and the #4 spot. Not a super strong 1st round in my estimation, but was facing one of the tougher opponents amongst teams that advanced. 26/11/2 @ 62.3 TS%. Unfortunate injury to end the series left him out for the first two games of round 2 which unfortunately may have been all Miami needed to get a grip on the series. Has played some of his best defense of the season since returning. But if he goes out in round 2 I can't see him being higher than my #5 vote.

Punchers Chance (6-7)

Butler/Luka - Underwhelming RSs from both leave them needing to do a lot in the playoffs. I probably had them both as fringe 3rd teamers through the RS, so somewhere around #15. Butler had a great round 1 and has still looked good in round 2. Luka missed the time, but strong return vs Utah. Defensive issues vs Phoenix so far. One round at a time for each, but neither will make my ballot if they fall in round 2.
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Re: 2021-22 RealGM All-Season Awards - Discussion Thread 

Post#148 » by Doctor MJ » Wed May 11, 2022 4:15 pm

Appreciate the way eminence laid out the candidates. Good starting point for anyone who has this stuff jumbled in their head - which is a common feeling around this point in the playoffs typically.

One thing I'll say about how I tend to roll:

I tend to be reluctant to re-arrange my rankings in the playoffs when the team results go the expected way.

The guy who I think is emerging as the poster boy for this is Doncic. If Dallas gets eliminated in this round, I don't think I'll be strongly considering him for a POY slot no matter what his performances are to end the series (because I didn't think he deserved consideration through the RS)...but he wills his team past the Suns, he'll definitely be someone I'm seriously considering and all of a sudden his RS ranking won't matter nearly as much to me.

There's an absurdity to thinking like this, and it's a reason to zoom out and do player evaluation on a time scale that is not chained to the narrative of a single season, but when I think about in-season achievement, I feel like this is how I have to do it to align myself with the emphasis of the basketball world which absolutely determines the focus of the players.

The next guys who I knew from the jump would have something like this going for them are Giannis & Embiid. I had Tatum ahead of both of them in the regular season, but would not have had they achieved a better team record. Reasoning? I had those guys as better players in mind before the season, and despite Tatum's emergence, I'm still skeptical he's really on their level, so as long as the guy I perceive as superior is leading a team to a higher seed, it's easy for me to ignore things like a bit of missed time or coasting. But they didn't do that - frankly they and their teams almost seemed to be tanking to avoid the Nets - and there's all sorts of evidence indicating that Tatum actually achieved more in the RS.

And so, as we watch Giannis & Tatum play against each other this round, while if Giannis leads the Bucks past the Celtics that probably makes things pretty straight forward, I'm not sure if I'll elevate Giannis ahead of Tatum if the Celtics win even if I end the series thinking "Yup, still think Giannis is better". Others are of course free to go about things differently.

On Suns/Heat guys - a different conundrum. #1 seeds where I didn't have any of their players in my Top 5, so what will it take for them to bust their way into my Top 5 beyond simply living up to their RS seed? Frankly it's more straight forward for the Heat because they have nothing like the record of a #1 seed and their two stars - Jimmy & Bam - were handicapped by injury. If the Heat end up beating all comers on the back of one of these guys looking like the best player in the playoffs, it would be pretty simple to elevate them.

The Suns on the other hand truly defy classic "this guy is the MVP candidate from his team" logic even if people have avoided admitting it. Paul was the MVP candidate until he got hurt, then folks past that torch to Booker...even before Booker had played as much time as Paul. Then there's the matter that from an RS +/- perspective, to me Bridges is the obvious MVP. Most MPG, most minutes by a large margin, best +/- & On/Off. To me it's an act of denial the way people ignore a guy like Bridges - basically refusing to even consider him for all-star & All-NBA accolade simply because they've decided other guys are the real "stars".

Of course as I say this, part of the reason why Bridges is considered lesser than Paul, Booker & Ayton is because all 3 of those guys were better in last year's playoffs and Bridges plays a more role-player-like style that people tend to think can't really be relied upon against tough competition. While I think we should be cautious in dismissing players simply because they don't play classical star-like roles, I'm certainly watching closely these playoffs and if the Suns win it all with one of Paul/Booker/Ayton as the clear playoff MVP, that player will be a serious candidate to break into my Top 5.
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Re: 2021-22 RealGM All-Season Awards - Discussion Thread 

Post#149 » by iggymcfrack » Wed May 11, 2022 5:23 pm

The way things are shaking out, the more I feel like it's going to be Jokic as POY. He was the best player by far in the regular season and he's had a much better individual playoffs than Giannis or Embiid. Everyone knows Joker had the best regular season PER of all-time, but how many people know he had the 5th highest postseason PER of all-time this season behind only Hakeem, LeBron, bubble Donovan Mitchell, and George Mikan? He's had a really special all-timer of a season where he's done everything that you could possibly ask of him and it's going to take something special to unseat him. If Giannis carries the Bucks on his back to a title, could he usurp him for the #1 spot? Absolutely. Theoretically, Embiid could do the same even though he's injured and down 3-2 and hasn't shown any signs. But I feel like if I were doing probabilities for my POY right now, it would be something like:

88% Jokic
10.5% Giannis
1.5% Embiid

Tatum's had a fantastic year and Curry's been very good, but no way are they on an all-time level even if they tear it up the rest of the way. I think Jokic's 21/22 is legitimately a top 10 season all-time for RS and playoffs combined.
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Re: 2021-22 RealGM All-Season Awards - Discussion Thread 

Post#150 » by jalengreen » Wed May 11, 2022 6:56 pm

i think it will be interesting if giannis leads the bucks to a title

say giannis performs at a normal level for him, middleton comes back for the ECF so giannis doesn't have to carry as much of an offensive load.

would that be enough to make up the gap between jokic and him?
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Re: 2021-22 RealGM All-Season Awards - Discussion Thread 

Post#151 » by HeartBreakKid » Wed May 11, 2022 9:08 pm

jalengreen wrote:i think it will be interesting if giannis leads the bucks to a title

say giannis performs at a normal level for him, middleton comes back for the ECF so giannis doesn't have to carry as much of an offensive load.

would that be enough to make up the gap between jokic and him?


I'd still vote for Jokic.

But I predict Giannis would certainly win POY in the poll. Especially if his finals series was good.
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Re: 2021-22 RealGM All-Season Awards - Discussion Thread 

Post#152 » by iggymcfrack » Wed May 11, 2022 10:54 pm

jalengreen wrote:i think it will be interesting if giannis leads the bucks to a title

say giannis performs at a normal level for him, middleton comes back for the ECF so giannis doesn't have to carry as much of an offensive load.

would that be enough to make up the gap between jokic and him?


Jokic had a 32.8 PER on .661 TS% in the regular season and a 33.0 PER on .640 TS% in the playoffs.

Giannis had a 32.1 PER on .633 TS% in the regular season and has a 26.5 PER on .548 TS% in the playoffs so far.

If those are the kind of numbers Giannis putting up all playoffs and the Bucks somehow manage to sneak out a championship win, I think Jokic should still be POY. If Giannis somehow kicks it into higher gear and carries the Bucks to a title to the point that his final numbers end up in line with his RS numbers, then sure, give him POY.
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Re: 2021-22 RealGM All-Season Awards - Discussion Thread 

Post#153 » by Texas Chuck » Wed May 11, 2022 10:54 pm

HeartBreakKid wrote:
jalengreen wrote:i think it will be interesting if giannis leads the bucks to a title

say giannis performs at a normal level for him, middleton comes back for the ECF so giannis doesn't have to carry as much of an offensive load.

would that be enough to make up the gap between jokic and him?


I'd still vote for Jokic.

But I predict Giannis would certainly win POY in the poll. Especially if his finals series was good.


I actually think even if the Bucks repeat, Giannis won't win. He has a ton of skeptics on the PC board, including a couple of very influential posters. And even the people who don't actively post against him don't realize this is one of the best offensive players alive. He does it differently so people don't realize what he's doing. But he's an absolute dominant scorer and has enough skill as a passer to then take advantage of how much attention his scoring demands from defenses to set up teammates.

I think he has a lot to overcome because this board has become a real slave to style in recent years, and he doesn't fit the en vogue style the way Jokic and Curry do. Jokic deserves all of his flowers this year, but Curry is definitely rolling on previous achievements and a very strong advocate. His actual case isn't particularly strong on his merit.
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Re: 2021-22 RealGM All-Season Awards - Discussion Thread 

Post#154 » by falcolombardi » Wed May 11, 2022 11:05 pm

iggymcfrack wrote:
jalengreen wrote:i think it will be interesting if giannis leads the bucks to a title

say giannis performs at a normal level for him, middleton comes back for the ECF so giannis doesn't have to carry as much of an offensive load.

would that be enough to make up the gap between jokic and him?


Jokic had a 32.8 PER on .661 TS% in the regular season and a 33.0 PER on .640 TS% in the playoffs.

Giannis had a 32.1 PER on .633 TS% in the regular season and has a 26.5 PER on .548 TS% in the playoffs so far.

If those are the kind of numbers Giannis putting up all playoffs and the Bucks somehow manage to sneak out a championship win, I think Jokic should still be POY. If Giannis somehow kicks it into higher gear and carries the Bucks to a title to the point that his final numbers end up in line with his RS numbers, then sure, give him POY.


what about beimg the best defendive player in bucks ridiculously strong defense (best in the playoffs by a mile?)
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Re: 2021-22 RealGM All-Season Awards - Discussion Thread 

Post#155 » by jalengreen » Thu May 12, 2022 1:45 am

was really high on tatum in the regular season but man he's been so disappointing in this series. lost them two close games IMO.
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Re: 2021-22 RealGM All-Season Awards - Discussion Thread 

Post#156 » by LukaTheGOAT » Thu May 12, 2022 2:09 am

jalengreen wrote:was really high on tatum in the regular season but man he's been so disappointing in this series. lost them two close games IMO.


Marcus Smart should lose his DPOY award just for smacking the ball out of Brown's hands and being responsible for Portis scoring. Honestly, should give to Jrue for the way he neutered him at the end.
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Re: 2021-22 RealGM All-Season Awards - Discussion Thread 

Post#157 » by iggymcfrack » Thu May 12, 2022 2:25 am

falcolombardi wrote:
iggymcfrack wrote:
jalengreen wrote:i think it will be interesting if giannis leads the bucks to a title

say giannis performs at a normal level for him, middleton comes back for the ECF so giannis doesn't have to carry as much of an offensive load.

would that be enough to make up the gap between jokic and him?


Jokic had a 32.8 PER on .661 TS% in the regular season and a 33.0 PER on .640 TS% in the playoffs.

Giannis had a 32.1 PER on .633 TS% in the regular season and has a 26.5 PER on .548 TS% in the playoffs so far.

If those are the kind of numbers Giannis putting up all playoffs and the Bucks somehow manage to sneak out a championship win, I think Jokic should still be POY. If Giannis somehow kicks it into higher gear and carries the Bucks to a title to the point that his final numbers end up in line with his RS numbers, then sure, give him POY.


what about beimg the best defendive player in bucks ridiculously strong defense (best in the playoffs by a mile?)


I mean if Jokic crushed Giannis in all the impact stats in the regular season with only slightly better box score numbers, you’d have to think he’s still better in the playoffs with much better box score numbers even if Giannis is upping his effort defensively now. If Giannis keeps playing like he did tonight though, by all means give him POY. That was incredible.
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Re: 2021-22 RealGM All-Season Awards - Discussion Thread 

Post#158 » by Doctor MJ » Thu May 12, 2022 2:28 am

Those last two plays by Jrue on Smart - the first of which was a compound play with the block-strip and bounce it off the other guy - are about the most definitive statement you'll ever see of "Oh, so you think you're good at defense, lemme show you how it's done" moments you'll ever see.

Jrue feels like Hakeem to Smart's Robinson.

Now, I'd still call Giannis the top defensive impact guy on the Bucks - different role - but Jrue seems to be continuing to lay claim to the title belt of best perimeter defensive player since...I don't know. The fact he's doing this in 2022 when Kawhi stopped being ultra-elite years ago and Jrue was born before Kawhi. Just wow.
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Re: 2021-22 RealGM All-Season Awards - Discussion Thread 

Post#159 » by Doctor MJ » Thu May 12, 2022 2:30 am

Texas Chuck wrote:I actually think even if the Bucks repeat, Giannis won't win. He has a ton of skeptics on the PC board, including a couple of very influential posters.


Curious who you're referring to. :D
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Re: 2021-22 RealGM All-Season Awards - Discussion Thread 

Post#160 » by RCM88x » Thu May 12, 2022 2:37 am

Drama aside, Dillon Brooks has turned into a really really nice player, gonna fetch big money in a couple years if he can keep his play up.

Cray he was involved in that MarShon Brooks trade miscommunication fiasco in December 2018, probably one of the more hilarious moments in recent NBA history: https://www.nba.com/news/fallout-bizarre-trevor-ariza-dillon-marshon-brooks-trade
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