Peaks Project #30

[Dr Positivity]

Ballot 1 - Walt Frazier 1972
Ballot 2 - Alonzo Mourning 2000
Ballot 3 - Dwight Howard 2011

Re: Zo vs Howard on offense. Howard's TS% is higher but league TS% is also .018 higher in 2011 than 2000. Howard's ORTG advantage is 113 to 112 despite league ORTG being 3.2 pts higher in 2011. I consider Howard's offensive game to have benefitted from having all that 3pt shooter spacing around him. Zo's midrange shot also adds an element of spacing to his team. Overall I don't have a reason to prefer Howard to Zo offensively.

If McHale was healthy in 87 playoffs he'd probably be on my ballot but I take playoff injuries to be a big factor, I prefer to pick a season like 88 or 86 as his season and don't have it quite that high

[Clyde Frazier]

Ballot #1 - 72 Frazier

If you aren't at least considering Frazier at this point, my only guess is that you question how he'd perform in more recent eras. Outside of not having a 3PT shot, I don’t really see any issues holding him back. He’s arguably the best perimeter defender of his generation, could run an offense well, yet was far from ball dominant in his overall play. He also proved his ability to step up in the playoffs over multiple finals / championship runs.

I'd like to go with one of the championship years, but 72 was his best combo of RS and PS, so sticking with that for now. Reed didn't play in the finals, so the knicks just had no match for wilt, who put up 19.4 PPG and 23.2 RPG on 60% from the field. West was actually held to 19.8 PPG on 32.5% from the field in the series (24.8 PPG on 47.7% FG in RS)! Clyde was certainly doing work in that series on both ends of the court.

RS: 23.2 PPG, 6.7 RPG, 5.8 APG, 57.6% TS (+7.2% vs. league avg), .223 WS/48

PS: 24.3 PPG, 7 RPG, 6.1 APG, 58.6% TS, .227 WS/48

Matching / exceeding his already stellar reg season play is very impressive.

A quick note about frazier's defense: people tend to say "racking up steals doesn't mean you're a good defender", but that's typically referring to guys who gamble on D for the steal. Frazier rarely did that. He got his steals by playing the passing lanes, and uniquely knocking the ball out of the players' hands by tapping it from behind. His size at 6'4" allowed him to guard both positions, and he was quick enough to body up smaller guys and make it difficult for them.

I think he's more than deserving of a spot in this range.

https://youtu.be/TVaCNzvvNf0?t=1m1s

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3bYpndoQOiU -- Yeah, it's an AS game, but it's from 72 specifically, and gives a nice look at him from that year

Ballot #2 - 75 Gilmore

Spoiler:

http://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/KEN/1975.html

Excellent reg season capped off by an equally impressive championship run. By 75, the ABA was a more than legitimate pro league, and gilmore did put up similar #s for 2 seasons once he got to the NBA. I like what gilmore brought to the table offensively more than dwight and mourning, and I’d say reed is right there, too, but gilmore had a special season in 75. At the very least, deserves more of a look than he's gotten up to this point.

Ballot #3 - 2011 Dwight

Statistically well within the range of those being discussed. Watching him that season, he used his athleticism to his advantage more than I had ever seen before, especially on the defensive end. Pretty much robbed of MVP that yr, too.

[70sFan]

1st ballot - Bob McAdoo 1975
2nd ballot - Elgin Baylor 1961
3rd ballot - Artis Gilmore 1975/1976

I missed last ballot due to busy time. I'm glad that Nash won it, big fan of his game

I've voted for Bob and Elgin for a few rounds, so I don't need to explain this choices again. About Gilmore - here is good thread about him:
http://forums.realgm.com/boards/viewtopic.php?t=1403558
I'm not sure which year should I take. Also, it's tough choice between Howard and Gilmore. Both are great defensive players and very good on offensive end. Why I picked A-Train? First of all, I'm very subjective in this comparison But I'm trying to be fair for both players. Let's compare them:

a) rebounding
While Artis was amazing rebounder (as good in ABA as in NBA), he's clearly worse than Howard. In my opinion Howard is one of the best rebounders EVER (same tier with Moses, Russell, Wilt). Solid edge for Dwight.

b) offense
They are very close in terms of offense. Both are super-efficient. Both are bad passers and TOV-prone. Dwight draws more fouls, but Gilmore is better FT shooter. Dwight huge FTr is caused by him being poor FT shooter. Gilmore still drawed tons of fouls and he was able to hit FTs. This is big factor in my opinion. Also, with such a close comparison, I'm into basing on eye-test. Gilmore looks more dominant in my opinion. In fact, I don't think any defender could stop him when he wanted to shoot. Another thing is BBIQ - neither of them are good passers, but Artis looks smarter on the court. Both averaged over 4 tpg. but Artis rarely forced shots or played selfish (in my opinion too rarely...). So overall, I'd give the edge for Artis, but small one.

c) defense
This is hard for me to evaluate. From what I've seen, Gilmore was amazing defender in his prime. Not sure if as good as Dwight, but elite for sure. Both anchored best defences in the league (1975/1976 ABA and 2009 NBA). I just don't have enough knowledge to choose here, but I don't think either one have big edge.

When we also factor things like durability, Intangibles and other things - Gilmore is better overall (for me at least).

[Narigo]

1. 1974 Bob Lanier
Second best player after Kareem Abdul Jabbar in 74. Has a good hookshot in the lowpost and has a solid jumper. He was a really solid passer. He was a excellent defender that anchored a better defense team(with a terrible supporting cast) than the Boston Celtics that had Hondo and Prime Cowens and the Bullets who had Unseld and Hayes.

2. 1972 Walt Frazier
Im taking 72 over 70 because he was better scorer in the playoffs. Led the Knicks to the NBA finals without Willis Reed. Averaged 23/8/8 in the finals on 61ts%. He is also one of the best point guard defenders ever.

3. 1969 Willis Reed
Im taking Reed over centers over Gilmore and Howard because imo he is a more capable scorer than both. Reed can shoot from the mid range area and he can also pretty good in the low post area as well. Probably not as good as Howard on defense but hes still above average on that end.

[trex_8063]

Thru post #23:

Elgin Baylor - 8
Dwight Howard - 8
Walt Frazier - 6
Artis Gilmore - 5
James Harden - 4
Bob McAdoo - 3
Alonzo Mourning -2

I really don't want to do a run-off, nor do I really want to make final decisions based on six ballot sheets. So I'm going to leave this open a little while longer to see if a couple more people will show up and cast a ballot. WE ARE NOT IN RUN-OFF.

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[eminence]

Didn't get a chance to do the comparison I wanted to do, but gonna stick with the bigs for this ballot.

1st. Dwight Howard 08-09

2nd. Artis Gilmore 74-75 Some of the stuff Q brought up convinced me to put Artis over 'Zo.

3rd. Alonzo Mourning 99-00

[trex_8063]

Thru post #26:

Dwight Howard - 11
Elgin Baylor - 8
Walt Frazier - 8
Artis Gilmore - 7
James Harden - 4
Bob McAdoo - 3
Alonzo Mourning -3
Bob Lanier - 3
Willis Reed - 2

Calling it for Howard. Will have #31 up shortly.....