therealbig3 wrote:Fair enough, I did say as of now, because I could be convinced to put Price back ahead of Deron...but I'm not really seeing Parker over Deron.
If Deron's not having superstar impact, then clearly neither is Parker. The only real edge he has on Deron is longevity. Parker doesn't really hit his prime until 05, so we have 7 prime seasons from him, compared to 4 for Deron. Are three extra seasons for Parker enough to compensate for the fact that he's clearly not as good as Deron, and clearly had an inferior peak? And I understand that APM is big for you, and I know that Deron isn't all that impressive in those terms...but he's still better than Parker, from what I've seen. Ilardi's study ranks Parker ahead of Williams, but all of the RAPM studies rank Williams ahead of Parker.
And btw, I don't think Utah gave up on Deron. Well I mean they did, but I don't think it's because they lost confidence in him as a franchise player. A few reasons for my thinking:
-Everyone, including the fan base, the media, teammates, coaches, and Williams himself, was shocked that he was traded
-Williams led them to a bunch of very successful seasons, they just couldn't get past the Lakers or Spurs
-He did fight with Sloan...but what superstar hasn't had a problem with their head coach at some point?
-I think the whole situation with Melo scared Utah into thinking they could potentially lose their superstar for nothing, so they decided to trade him for what they could get
I don't really see what Williams could have done to have them give up on him as their franchise player...they were a perennial playoff team with him (always a middle seed it seemed), and he always played well in the playoffs for them. They still could have made the playoffs if they kept him in 2011...after he was traded, their playoff hopes went out the window.
I can definitely see the case for Deron over Parker, I do think though that Deron was put in a gaudy stat situation for a while before he actually started having real star-level impact, and I think Parker's in a situation where gaudy stats would just never happen. As such I do think people overrate the longevity of Deron as a superior player, and people tend to not appreciate that being the 3rd leg of a stable dynasty-ish team is a pretty big deal. No argument from me though that Deron's the superior peak player though so at a certain point it comes down to GOAT-philosophy rather than anything more pressing.
Re: The trade. Yeah, this is something we're going to have to meditate on for a long time, maybe forever. While it sounds like I'm using it to damn Deron, what I'm really doing is trying to be cautious in how I elevate him when I see red flags.
I mean, it's all well and good to say Utah was just being proactive knowing they couldn't re-sign Deron...but the primary piece they got for Deron was a power forward, and their two best current players not named Deron were both...power forwards, one of whom they just acquired this year. To say that we're going to be looking at Jazz management with a critical eye for years to come is an understatement. They look like they are completely crazy at this point after decades of being considered one of the 3 best run franchises in the league.
I'll also make clear that I personally factor in off court stuff to my list. It's the reason why I have Duncan ahead of Shaq.
So anyway, maybe in the end we come off thinking that the Jazz were completely crazy, and that Deron is indeed an MVP-level performer with know negative intangibles, and at that point my evaluation of Deron's career is going to get a more vehement thumb's up from me. At this point though, there is a legit question of what all he's accomplished.
A question to ponder: I would certainly expect that no one considers Deron to be a HOFer right now. If I asked the same question of Tony Parker, how would you react? Even if you say "No" to him as well, do you hesitate a bit longer?
