trex_8063 wrote:Owly wrote:Magic Is Magic wrote:
Reggie Miller is the most overrated player I've ever seen. Top 40 discussion when he doesn't have a single all NBA 1st or 2nd team, or on the 1st or 2nd all defense. 0 top 5 MVP votes. 0 top 5 in single season total Points, Rebounds or Assists. I was shocked when his score was the lowest based out of 55 players. He isn't close to 39. Many players did way more than him.
The thing is the awards/accolades are an indirect proxy for player performance rather than a direct one (albeit direct ones might be incomplete [boxscore composites], noisy [impact] or both). If you trust those voters heavily Miller is a long way out, if you discount it based on the belief you have better tools one may conclude Reggie belongs here (or not).
Ranking thresholds will be arbitrary, using them in counting stats for single aspects of the game also doesn't mean much (Danny Fortson was an elite rebounder but not an elite player). Leaving aside that Miller has10 top 5 ts% seasons, these single factors don't mean that much. Depending on your box composite of choice, weighting of playoff performance (and means of analysis of such), your reading of the impact of his gravity etc, I can see ways of having him here.
If you are say, into Win Shares (15th all time NBA only, 18th with ABA included) weigh the playoffs highly, factor in opponents for playoff analysis, believe that the Knicks strong defense overall in that era makes them a tough defense for shooting guards to the same degree (in appraising his playoff performance) and take a bullish view on his impact you could justify a high ranking. That's not necessarily me but I wouldn't necessarily object either if applied as a consistent criteria and if I did disagree I'd want to be clear in the reasoning for the criticism (e.g. "criteria is fundamentally flawed because ...." or "I don't think you can have applied this criteria consistently, because ..."). That Miller doesn't rate here for you is fine. Belief that he absolutely shouldn't rate here justified by him not doing so by your own criteria (without exposition why that criteria is better than the flawed, alternate angles) ... is harder to get behind.
Some fine points.
Doctor MJ already replied to him on this topic in a prior thread, particularly regarding Reggie's "standing" in terms of media-awarded accolades.
The thing about these types of awards [especially pre-databall] is that if fans or media persons were looking at two players: one averages 26 ppg on league-average TS% for a slightly below average offense, while the other averages 23 ppg on +10% rTS for a top 5-7 offense (and let's say neither is exceptional [though not necessarily "equal"] at everything else).......almost all of them will favour the first player. The reason: 26 is more than 23. It's literally that simple of an equation to them.
At some point one really needs to look at what is earned/not earned, and who is snubbed.
Where Reggie is concerned, even noting a few years of interest kind of illustrates the point.....
'91Reggie averaged 22.6 ppg on a
league-leading +11.6% rTS (
) along with 4 apg and a 2.03 Ast:TO ratio, as the clear best player and offensive anchor of the 7th-rated offense in the league. Didn't miss a single game either, fwiw.
He is not invited to the All-Star game (even as a replacement for the injured Isiah Thomas), nor given All-NBA honours.
Hersey Hawkins [in the same conference]---who admittedly is better defensively, though still no All-D, fwiw----averages 22.1 ppg on +5.8% rTS, along with 3.7 apg and a 1.40 Ast:TO ratio, for the 13th-best offense [despite playing with Charles Barkley]; team no better overall either.......he IS invited to the All-Star game.
Joe Dumars [also same conference] is definitely a better defensive player [though probably overrated in this regard, imo], averaged 20.4 ppg @ +1.8% rTS, with 5.5 apg and a 2.34 Ast:TO ratio for the 12th-rated offense [and even less rebounding than Reggie]. He not only gets invited to the All-Star game, but receives All-NBA 3rd Team honours.
Bernard King [also in the same conference]----who is definitely NOT better defensively than Reggie in this year----averages 28.4 ppg @
-0.7% rTS [just want to emphasize this is
more than 12% worse than Reggie] with 4.6 apg though a horrid turnover economy (4.0 topg--->double what Reggie averaged) for the offense that is tied for 23rd [of 27] in the league; a team that won just 30 games total. AND King missed 18 games besides.
He is invited to the All-Star game AND receives All-NBA 3rd Team honours [though as a forward, but still: a "wing"].
Does all of this^^^^ seem fair, justified, or correct?
I would say that quite obviously it does not.
'92Reggie averaged 20.7 ppg @ +9.8% rTS, with 3.8 apg and a 2.00 Ast:TO ratio, as the clear best player and offensive anchor for the 6th-rated offense in the league. A somewhat better than usual 3.9 rpg this year, too, fwiw, and again not missing a single game.
He is not invited to the All-Star game, nor does he get All-NBA honours.
Michael Adams [in the same conference] averages 18.1/4.0/7.6 on
-2.5% rTS (again:
more than 12% worse than Reggie) for the 24th-rated offense, a team that won just 25 games. AND Adams was a clear defensive liability [Reggie was not].
Adams is invited to the All-Star game.
Reggie Lewis [same conference, same position] averages 20.8 ppg (with just 4.8 rpg and just 2.3 apg, similar overall turnover economy) @ +1.9% rTS for the 8th-rated offense.
He is invited to the All-Star game.
Joe Dumars again, too, fwiw.
Does all of this seem fair, justified, or correct?
I would again say quite obviously no (Michael Adams at the very least).
'93Reggie averaged 21.2 ppg @ +8.1% rTS, with 3.2 apg for the 5th-rated offense [just 1.0 worse than Jordan's Bulls, and BETTER THAN the Malone/Stockton Jazz]. Again doesn't miss a single game.
He is not invited to the All-Star game, nor does he get All-NBA honours.
Drazen Petrovic [same conference] averaged 20.6 ppg @ +5.1% rTS, with 3.1 apg and a worse turnover economy for the [tied for] 18th-rated offense. No better defensively or rebounding, either.
He is invited to the All-Star game,
and gets All-NBA 3rd Team.
Isiah Thomas is still putting up somewhat big(ish) numbers (17.6/8.5), though is at this point in his career really tanking in efficiency (-4.8% rTS,
13% worse than Reggie), while "anchoring" the [tied for] 18th-rated offense, a team that wins only 40 games.
He is invited to the All-Star game.
For that matter Isiah's teammate Joe Dumars is again an All-Star and All-NBA 2nd Team. So apparently the team that had one All-NBA 2nd team guard, another All-Star guard, AND an All-Defensive 1st Team forward........was incapable of even a winning record. That in and of itself is suggestive that they may have got some of these wrong. But I'll again ask: does all of ^^^this seem fair, justified, or correct?
'94Reggie averages 19.9 ppg on a
league-leading +10.8% rTS, with 3.1 apg for the 11th-rated offense (47 wins, +3.26 SRS overall).
He is not invited to the All-Star team, nor does he get All-NBA honours.
BJ Armstrong [same conference] averages 14.8 ppg @ +1.9% rTS with 3.9 apg, solid turnover economy, though an obvious defensive liability; this for part of a solid 55-win team, though only 14th-rated offense.
He makes the All-Star Team.
Kenny Anderson [same conference] averages 18.8 ppg and 9.6 apg, though on -3.7% rTS (
14.5%! worse than Reggie), for the offense tied for 12th in the league (45 wins overall).
He makes the All-Star team.
John Starks [same conference] is admittedly a much better defensive guard than Reggie. otoh, he averages 19.0 ppg @ -1.2% rTS (12% worse than Reggie) and 5.9 apg for the 16th-rated offense in the league; AND misses 23 games [Reggie missed only 3].
He makes the All-Star team.
Does all of this seem fair, justified, and correct?
I'll stop there, but one is hopefully getting the picture. Reggie was arguably snubbed of at least All-Star selections in '97 and '99, as well.
Magic Is Magic, I might suggest as an experiment--->see what happens if instead of 5 All-Star appearances and 3 All-NBA 3rd Teams, input into your formula
TEN All-Star appearances, 3 All-NBA 3rd Teams, and 2 All-NBA 2nd Teams......because that's more in line with what Reggie actually merited (even before getting into things like the "Reggie assist" or how he frequently elevated his play in the playoffs).
Where does your formula put him then?
