Top 20 Offensive Player Peaks

[lessthanjake]

Nash had ample time and postseason appearances to up his volume, so here I kind of agree with you in some sense that his talent has the potential to score on higher volume. However, he did not do it, so it still has to be a what if with Nash, and a mental thing, but playing that high volume game is tougher as a small player so he couldn't overcome.

Draft Nash in 2025 and he probably would. Its a shame.

I think it’s important to realize that what you’re saying Nash did not do is simply to increase his shooting volume. You are not saying that Nash did not lead absolutely elite playoff offenses. And nor could you, since he led some of the absolute best playoff offenses in history, and we know that his teams’ relative offensive rating with him on the court in the playoffs was better than anyone in the play-by-play era (including LeBron, Steph, and Jokic). Your position may be that his offenses would’ve been even better if he’d increased his shooting volume, but that doesn’t mean he didn’t already lead the best playoff offenses ever. He actually did. It just wasn’t enough to win titles, because the teams’ defenses were bad (in part because of Nash himself, to be fair).

I would also note that he did actually increase his scoring volume a lot in one difficult series—particularly against the Mavericks in 2005. It was an incredible performance. And the Suns in that series had an even better relative net rating than they averaged in general with Nash. If that is indicative of what could’ve happened if Nash had always increased his scoring volume, then it just means that Nash could’ve been *far and away* the best offensive player ever. Even without that though, his team results offensively, including in the playoffs, are already the best of anyone else.

It's hard for me to agree to that when he never got within 2 games of even winning the WCF. At some point winning, results and success - overcoming barriers (which to me is increasing your ppg and doing more, as to the volume debate and he didn't/couldn't (figure it out?) has to matter more than idk what ur using here, but if you are in contention for best offensive player ever, with a pretty decent team around you, you gotta at least get past the WCF. For me it would need to be even more than that again but yeah...

I'm not going to talk in absolutes because I didnt see in realtime, but I am just using logic.

But here’s the problem. Let’s take the playoff series Nash’s Suns lost.

What were the Suns’s opponent-relative offensive ratings with Nash on the floor in those series?

- 2005 vs. Spurs: +17.16
- 2006 vs. Mavs: +7.98
- 2008 vs. Spurs: +4.09
- 2007 vs. Spurs: +8.57
- 2010 vs. Lakers: +17.75

These are incredibly high numbers. Those series average out to a ridiculous +11.1 rORTG with Nash on the floor. For reference, that’s higher than the weighted average rORTG of LeBron’s teams with LeBron on the court *only in the years LeBron won a title.* Just to make sure this is clear: Nash’s Suns averaged better offense with Nash on the floor in the playoff series they *lost* than LeBron’s teams did with LeBron on the floor in the playoffs just in the years they won the title. And Nash’s Suns also averaged better offense with Nash on the floor in the playoff series they lost than Steph’s Warriors averaged with Steph on the floor in the playoffs just in the years they won the title. Offense was really obviously not the problem here!

Even if we expanded out the sample to include every single playoff series Nash lost in his career (including with the Mavs and Lakers), the weighted average rORTG with Nash on the floor was +7.03 in series losses. That’s great offense! For reference, that’s a bit higher than the weighted average of LeBron’s playoff on-court rORTG from 2006-2020, when including *all* series, including victories. And it’s only just below the same relevant number for Steph. These guys won a bunch of titles in their careers, while averaging comparable playoff offenses to what Nash averaged in his career *just in the series that Nash lost.*

The idea that the fault for these playoff series was Nash’s offense is just clearly wrong. Nash’s teams lost despite incredible offense. And that’s especially true on the Suns (which was the team where he really was the focal point of the offense).

[tsherkin]

He had tons of time to figure it out. If you did not do it, you couldn't. How long does he need? He didn't have the instincts or mindset for it, or he would have done it.

Those instincts needed to be developed at a young age, and some of it is personality. Steve Nash does seem unselfish and like a good teammate. I think it would be harder for him than say a young Kobe to be more selfish, so it would need to be more instinctive, but that needs to be shaped when you are younger and much more neuroplastic.

But again, he never proved that he couldn't, and in 05 he explicitly proved that he could elevate his scoring volume effectively. He aged after that and his back problems were worse. It's worth remembering he was a 6'3 guard in his 30s at that point, but he was showing plenty of ability whilst he was a little more spry and youthful.

So again, "can't" is an inappropriate word.