Top 20 Offensive Player Peaks

[lessthanjake]

Nash had ample time and postseason appearances to up his volume, so here I kind of agree with you in some sense that his talent has the potential to score on higher volume. However, he did not do it, so it still has to be a what if with Nash, and a mental thing, but playing that high volume game is tougher as a small player so he couldn't overcome.

Draft Nash in 2025 and he probably would. Its a shame.

I think it’s important to realize that what you’re saying Nash did not do is simply to increase his shooting volume. You are not saying that Nash did not lead absolutely elite playoff offenses. And nor could you, since he led some of the absolute best playoff offenses in history, and we know that his teams’ relative offensive rating with him on the court in the playoffs was better than anyone in the play-by-play era (including LeBron, Steph, and Jokic). Your position may be that his offenses would’ve been even better if he’d increased his shooting volume, but that doesn’t mean he didn’t already lead the best playoff offenses ever. He actually did. It just wasn’t enough to win titles, because the teams’ defenses were bad (in part because of Nash himself, to be fair).

I would also note that he did actually increase his scoring volume a lot in one difficult series—particularly against the Mavericks in 2005. It was an incredible performance. And the Suns in that series had an even better relative net rating than they averaged in general with Nash. If that is indicative of what could’ve happened if Nash had always increased his scoring volume, then it just means that Nash could’ve been *far and away* the best offensive player ever. Even without that though, his team results offensively, including in the playoffs, are already the best of anyone else.

It's hard for me to agree to that when he never got within 2 games of even winning the WCF. At some point winning, results and success - overcoming barriers (which to me is increasing your ppg and doing more, as to the volume debate and he didn't/couldn't (figure it out?) has to matter more than idk what ur using here, but if you are in contention for best offensive player ever, with a pretty decent team around you, you gotta at least get past the WCF. For me it would need to be even more than that again but yeah...

I'm not going to talk in absolutes because I didnt see in realtime, but I am just using logic.

But here’s the problem. Let’s take the playoff series Nash’s Suns lost.

What were the Suns’s opponent-relative offensive ratings with Nash on the floor in those series?

- 2005 vs. Spurs: +17.16
- 2006 vs. Mavs: +7.98
- 2008 vs. Spurs: +4.09
- 2007 vs. Spurs: +8.57
- 2010 vs. Lakers: +17.75

These are incredibly high numbers. Those series average out to a ridiculous +11.1 rORTG with Nash on the floor. For reference, that’s higher than the weighted average rORTG of LeBron’s teams with LeBron on the court *only in the years LeBron won a title.* Just to make sure this is clear: Nash’s Suns averaged better offense with Nash on the floor in the playoff series they *lost* than LeBron’s teams did with LeBron on the floor in the playoffs just in the years they won the title. And Nash’s Suns also averaged better offense with Nash on the floor in the playoff series they lost than Steph’s Warriors averaged with Steph on the floor in the playoffs just in the years they won the title. Offense was really obviously not the problem here!

Even if we expanded out the sample to include every single playoff series Nash lost in his career (including with the Mavs and Lakers), the weighted average rORTG with Nash on the floor was +7.03 in series losses. That’s great offense! For reference, that’s a bit higher than the weighted average of LeBron’s playoff on-court rORTG from 2006-2020, when including *all* series, including victories. And it’s only just below the same relevant number for Steph. These guys won a bunch of titles in their careers, while averaging comparable playoff offenses to what Nash averaged in his career *just in the series that Nash lost.*

The idea that the fault for these playoff series was Nash’s offense is just clearly wrong. Nash’s teams lost despite incredible offense. And that’s especially true on the Suns (which was the team where he really was the focal point of the offense).

[tsherkin]

He had tons of time to figure it out. If you did not do it, you couldn't. How long does he need? He didn't have the instincts or mindset for it, or he would have done it.

Those instincts needed to be developed at a young age, and some of it is personality. Steve Nash does seem unselfish and like a good teammate. I think it would be harder for him than say a young Kobe to be more selfish, so it would need to be more instinctive, but that needs to be shaped when you are younger and much more neuroplastic.

But again, he never proved that he couldn't, and in 05 he explicitly proved that he could elevate his scoring volume effectively. He aged after that and his back problems were worse. It's worth remembering he was a 6'3 guard in his 30s at that point, but he was showing plenty of ability whilst he was a little more spry and youthful.

So again, "can't" is an inappropriate word.

[Top10alltime]

1. Nash on/off offensive is a swing of +17.1 offense rating ( +16.6 swing without Marion / +25.3 swing without Joe / +17.5 swing without Amare ) - he also didn't upgrade a bad team to just good or great , he uplifted them to be the 2nd Best rORTG ( +8.4 ) of all time behind the Mavs 04 ( +9.2 ). You can attributed some of his impact to his teammates like Amare Stoudemire / Joe Johnson / Marion but their impact corelate with how Nash able to maximize his playmaking and court awareness to bring up the best in each one of them on offense ( it can either be collapsing the defense to leave room for Amare and Shawn to play finish with less contact / His OFFball presence can't make the Defense slack off him to help against Joe Johnson isolation ). Nash mid volume Elite efficiency scoring make him a thread to not be leaving out. I would say Nash Onball playmaking is on the same tier as Magic ( who I got 2nd ) but his Offball movement are more polished + combine with his effectiveness to score everywhere on the floor bring value more than magic offball who's less versatile scorer . Nash while Facing -3.8 rDRTG defense in the playoffs in 2005 he lead a +16.3 rORTG adj. While on court ( Curry need a super team to lead this kind of offense +17.9 rORTG in 2017 against worse defensive -1.1rDRTG. which Kawhi miss the series after game 1 ).

That's fair, due to many other reasons, Nash has an argument as GOAT offensive player ever, he is GOAT lvl offensive after all...

2. The reason I put Curry at 4th is that I do value Onball more and the like of any player I mentioned above ( maybe for the exception of MJ who I still think is better onball ) definitely wipe curry on that aspect. Onball playmaking is more valuable+more definite to an offensive engine Skillsets/ability cause the best O player is the one organize and delivery everything making it less prone to someone else mistake. Curry lead a +8.1 offense in the regular season and have offensive on/off swing +14.9 rating ( +8.4 swing without Draymond / +14.2 swing without Klay ) you will see that Curry offensive uplifted get almost cut by half when his Onball initiator and decision maker in Draymond green isn't on the floor. Curry 16 in playoffs get injured - still part of his peak year so it cannot be left out only lead a +5.2rORTG adj. Against -0.7 rDRTG defense ( Draymond was leading a +6.3 rORTG in a bigger sample size)

Again, if you have Steph there, it's fair enough. He had elite offensive situation, but so did Jordan, who did have Pippen as the on-ball initiator and decision maker on the team, so I don't see why Jordan would be ahead of Steph.

Yes, I do agree on-ball is more valuable and impactful to offense, than off-ball, but as you said in your post, Jordan is the only one who doesn't clear on-ball, and Steph ginormous gap off-ball is enough, to take him over Jordan, isn't it?

3. Jerry west - I might have been to overblown by his Resilience against the best defensive team ever ( -9.4 rDRTG )while his best teammates in Baylor got injured in the final and west unlimited scoring ability still translate to impact the floor. But I can totally see harden Playmaking ability and Regular Season lead offense being better. I don't have much to argue about

Don't see why Harden's RS alone wouldn't overcome this. But one correction, 64 Celtics was best defensive team ever, not 65/66.

4. SGA have elite impact as offensive floor even with his best teammates missing out due to injury or not on the floor with him . +11.1 offense Swing ( +16.2 swing without j'dub / +14.2 swing without chet / +14.5 without I.hart ). His scoring Volume and efficiency with how he score is nearly unschemable especially the Drive ( he lead the league ) to get bucket or FT that make the defense get less touchy cause the foul he draw each time he drive couple it with his elite midrange jumper.

Yes, his scoring absolutely is lethal weapon, but what makes his playmaking strong enough to surpass someone like CP3??

4.1 Luka have ever traits of an Elite offense engine. Scoring ability ( versatility / efficiency ) he can score against elite defense And his playmaking off the PNR is nearly unstoppable due to Luka being able to trap the defensive player to come edge the screen on him because of his shooting as a versatile Scorer or his drive ability with his control of speed able to manipulate a single coverage defender so it obligated a help defender on him leaving the roll man wipe open. With the roll man open Luka ability to find The best way or best timing to pass the ball cannot be neutralize while the defense collapse on the driving/edge defense ( this will help his case as court vision ) and Luka delivery on the lob traits or the bounce pass are hard to predict by help defense ( the other who didn't double Luka ) and even if the roll man get rotate on Luka passing ability that make him elite at everywhere on the court make him create for the Prerimeter open cause the PNR offense. Luka on ball présence is always an advantageous skills and less prone to scheme than others player

Good job, you presented nice case, I can't really argue much here, but wouldn't this put him over Kobe too?

5. I do think Wilt playmaking ability relative to era in 67 is more impressive than what bird has in his disposal. Add to that a layer of Offensive Rebounding ability so I take wilt

What did Wilt have as a PM, that was good enough to take him over Bird? Bird wipes as a passer, decision maker, and facilitator. Peak Wilt was def a better scorer and all-time offensive rebounder, but I don't see why Bird resilient postseason (in his offensive peak 86/87 he was resilient playoff performer), his playmaking combination with still elite scoring would put him below Wilt.

6. Karl Malone is an elite offensive player in the regular season. Elite scorer with great and effective PNR action in the RS. I don't see why wouldn't he be included

He would be included, just lower on the list. TMac who isn't even on your list should be ahead, and I don't see how he isn't ahead, can you explain?

7. Rick Barry might be the more scalable and portable Scorer of his era ( in contention with west ). To catch shoot off ball - to run PNR then pull up jump shot or finish at the rim. His playmaking was decent enough to compliment his scoring. Are you choosing 75 Rick Barry instead because of the IQ and as ball distributeur ? I can totally see that year instead

This is all great and all, but not good to put him over Bird. Bird could also shoot off-ball, and has the advantages you've listed below except for scoring volume. He also has off-ball movement and better shooter. For portability and scalability that's fair.
But yeah you are right about 75 Barry, but I don't see why he isn't there along with 67. 67 is still great offensive year though, yeah.

And if Barry is ahead of Bird offensively, why not Wade too?

8. Reggie Miller except from OFFball movement and 3pt ball have nothing on bird offensive ability. Bird is a better volume scorer while still maintaining the efficiency - he a better transition initiator with his court awareness to find his man for an outlet pass - better decisions making in the half court off a double or off screen - MILES BETTER Screen setter - Better O-Reb ( even if he's didn't box out that much ) his timing and positioning were great - on ball bird also better by just a Facilitor and passer in general

Good job defending Bird, but completely contradicting your points for defending Barry and Wilt over Bird, so it's either this or Bird below them. Unless there is something missing that I don't know about, you can enlighten me there.

9. Lastly like I state in my post that I could have forgotten some player so TMac could be in the list too

TMac is having elite offensive year that season, he shouldn't be over Wade, but he should be over the two Malones and also Westbrook.

2. You made good point. Both MJ + Curry are in elite situation in the year I chosen as their Peak offense. Both have help to initialize the offense by capitalize on them with Pippen running the triangle offense which solitate on MJ offball Scoring to find the best position or timing to create opportunities/ Speration in benefit of MJ or The team on the backbone of MJ Scoring Goat traits. The same is with Draymond who use his quick decision making and Court awareness to usetalise Curry offball Playmaking that liberates another player due to curry Gravity.
The thing that make me choose MJ instead is that when needed MJ can be the sole offense engine with his Unmatched Scoring ability( MJ being one of the best ISOLATION and shot creator limit him less in this kind of situation ) and he still able to make play/manipulate the defense to be on him then he can deliver his creation to an open teammates. Which Stephen Curry have a hander time doing and if he the sole offensive initiator it brings down the full potential of Curry potential as Offball Playmaking also Curry as ball carrier have trouble to deliver in tough coverage ( Curry being a good but not great isolation/ shot creator for himself make the defense much easier to disturb Curry offense ). Also Lastly MJ have Elite playoff run in 91 and Curry got injured "I know it not his fault but if he doesn't have that sample of offense to show I cannot rank him higher"

I am going to focus on this here. You are absolutely right about elite situation offensively, with Pippen and Draymond running the offense for both of their teams situations.

But here you are saying Jordan has the edge being sole engine of his team based off of his scoring traits, but in actuality, Steph can be the sole engine. He is a better scorer in the RS, based off of..

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/1350098560749801553/1387957342175232020/IMG_1347.jpg?ex=686d1341&is=686bc1c1&hm=ec4658c03f8f6e8a4319f5e4e5eb8b46d79708d384601bea32ebee83ce2e9151&

This is him with his 3 point shooting, creating all of his spacing and whatnot, you can also see some off-ball scoring which is the C&S 3s.

You mentioned ISO scoring but... it isn't like a huge gap there. Steph still is great as an ISO scorer and is creating shots near the same level while having much more difficult shots than Jordan, due to him wiping with his gravity.

Compare Jordan 90-91: https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/1308308106836574210/1391933559639638156/IMG_0871.png?ex=686db2a5&is=686c6125&hm=c8caa46b55c011428c8e688d6d259c34c0411c63fee74e0f53e48cb193e19ea1&

Then compare Steph 15-16: https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/1350098560749801553/1387957758992580618/40F7808B-64A5-4327-A271-18CE9610F6C4.png?ex=686d13a4&is=686bc224&hm=e4ea609c24255db515838ebe4590aa8fab8d96c0166acd450c8cfb53ecbf9ff9&

Their efficiency is quite similar, really, it is not a significant gap either way in on-ball or off-ball scoring, they are quite similar as scorers, but overall, Steph has the edge. Jordan averaging 31 on +7.1 in 37 MP, while Steph is averaging 30 on +13 in 34 MP, so that gives it to Steph...

If you are looking for all these traits you are giving Jordan the edge for, and how he did in them, here he does: viewtopic.php?p=119153506#p119153506

Not even that impressive what he does...

Steph is able to manipulate the defense, is able to deliver shots and creations in tough coverage (most of the time it's just a spread PnR or pure isolation, two of the worst ways to score in the NBA, without that elite spacing) and is not even that bad as a on-ball PM. He has an extremely good handle as well, and is also extremely good offensive engine (better than Jordan)..



Moving on to the playmaking, here are some metrics:

2016 Steph - 56.7 passes, 81.5% morey rate, 61.5 EFG% on assists, 7.2 passer rating, 10 AST /75 via creations, 11.8% ast-pass ratio, 14.4% pTOV, 2.2 POT AST /1Minute
2016 Harden - 52.0 passes, 85.5% morey rate, 60 EFG% on assists, 6.6 passer rating, 7.8 AST /75 via creations, 14.3 ast-pass ratio, 15.7% pTOV, 2.2 POT AST /1Minute
2016 Russ - 57.1 passes, 67.3% morey rate, 58.5 EFG% on assists, 8.5 passer rating, 11 AST / 75 via creations, 18.3% ast-pass ratio, 12.3% pTOV, 2.3 POT AST /1Minute

Not ALL of the weight should be put on the metrics, but Steph with his off-ball PM is still going to be like that with his creation and his passing is quite good (not deep bag but still).... If I ever get to tracking Steph... I'll edit that in to here....



That's all and why Steph is better offensive player at his peak (15-16) than 90-91 Jordan (his offensive peak), have a great day!!!