Current SGA vs all-time SGs

[OhayoKD]

The only reason we're talking about midfield is because you decided to treat "ball progression" as synonymous with "successfully getting the ball past the half-way point of the playing surface". It

No, that's incorrect.

So you take James over Jordan because of ability to throw long passes better? That's your analogy to Messi and Ronaldo?

It's one reason. Not a big one.

The "point" of the analogy is that in soccer there are various box-scores which don't just rely count what happens at or near the very end of a sequence of play, and people recognize there is production there. So even if Ronaldo and Messi are close in goals/assists, you have plenty of eye-tests and box-scores agreeing that messi is better. In basketball offensive production is reduced to points assists and/or rebounds. A.K.A what happens at the end of a possession. This creates a false equivalency in "production". If you want to argue "actions before the end of a possession" is not notable or worth counting then do so, but "there is no midfield" is a red-herring.

If that's the "point" of this analogy, then it's a horrible analogy because it doesn't give you any clearer picture of your take. Of course the whole possession matters, we're not discussing with guys looking at ppg here.[/quote]
Pretty much all the popular advanced stats and the inputs they're based on in basketball only look at the end of a possession. And that's the lens the sport is commonly viewed. I'm not sure why you're making it just scoring though. I've said assists are "at the end of possessions" too.

This point also suggests that Messi does "more" than Ronaldo outside of scoring goals, assuming that Ronaldo is just a pure striker that didn't do much beyond that. That's actually not true, Ronaldo does a lot of things Messi doesn't on the court. Things that Messi does are just more valuable overall.

I am assuming Messi does way more than Ronaldo does besides scoring. What are these "lot of things" he does better besides scoring traits? Only things that come to mind are him tackling a bit more, winning headers, blocking a bit more, and moving more off-ball (and I don't know i've ever seen it measured but I assume he stresses defenses more without the ball). I think assists makes the passing look alot closer than it is. Messi can ping pong the ball from his own box to a teammate in the other box (iirc he did it 3 times vs Croatia) and hit crazy diagonal through crosses 3 times vs France and run through real madrid's entire defense in the champions league semi-final. Messi also clears Ronaldo in like every passing metric and had a world cup run where he matched Modric statistically being used as a deep-lying creator. If it was just goalscoring I could buy a "well Ronaldo does better in higher leverage moments" case but the outside of scoring gap has to be pretty big I think. Peak messi was a better presser/positioner defender I feel but we don't have metrics for that pre 2015 i think.

OK, but that again leaves us with your analogy being empty.
Space is very important in rugby as well, would you try to create some fuzzy analogies of basketball and rugby players as well? What's the purpose of this?

I mean I've done it with football for passing. I don't watch rugby though. And honestly my interest in football is the stories/first things first bits. There's way too many ads and pauses for me. I like messi-cr7 analogy because it's the only other team-sport comp can think off where between 2 similar players by end-of-poss stats one player has an advantage in creation quality, creation quantity, ball progression, and consensus there is the opposite. Anyway I didn't bring it up this thread.

I am not talking about Giannis penetrating, I am talking about teams building walls inside the paint. And Phonzie and Mbappe don't need to have the ball for an opposing defense to drop their line of confrontation while they're on the field.

The way defenses react to them and the influence on defensive coverage of these two players are fundamentally different though. I get that both players affect defenses and force them to provide additional help, which opens up the space - but again, that's very basic thing and I don't see any reason to use such analogy because it doesn't provide any value in understanding these basic concepts.[/quote]
I mean it's specifically they make teams vacate space ahead. It's not relevant to what's being discussed anyway but if I see an opportunity to bring up Phonzie's xG halving speed-gravity I can't resist. Mbappe is just being mentioned so I can hide the agenda.

It's a reason. Being plenty capable doesn't make you as capable. The only players who did it more (keeping it strictly to dribbling) than Lebron did in 09/10 were Magic and Nash. When you pair that with being the best scorer in the league (3rd best all-time) and being able to frequently draw and consistently capitalize on 3+ defenders focusing on you, you get a Messi analog. Lebron has two seasons where he was simultaneously the league's most prolific scorer, progressor, and creator and he was hyper-efficient in both. Messi is probably the only modern soccer player you can say that was ever true for.

Have you tracked enough games to be certain about that? I think that statement would require hundreds of games tracked.

I guess not, but like you said for Bird, the signals are undeniable. Given what's on tape (for hard tracking I think it's 6 between me, tsherkin, ceo, and lebronny) the most compelling explanation for me is he's outpacing his assists as a playmaker by alot. My concern with Lebronny's tracking is mostly gone now that I've went and looked at what they count as a creation. All the creations have at least one defender taken out and one extra affected, almost all of them have 2 taken out, and up until a week ago they were only counting when a shot was generated so I don't think there's weak stuff being filtered in. And Lebron is torching what they'd tracked over several playoffs for everyone else and he's racking up alot more edtos per creation when they have me vet their stuff than for the others. And this is all 2007 or earlier Lebron who isn't even being used as a primary ball-handler for large stretches of the game.

Because in the premier league the weaker teams have higher lines of confrontations than they do in other leagues creating more midfield battles than other leagues. Basing that off some measure of defensive whatever i don't remember.

That's interesing, but it would depend on what leagues were compared to PL. Remember that Europe has a lot of leagues around, it doesn't end with the top 3.
I don't watch PL at all, I watch basically only international and UCL these days (and some Polish league in person sporadically).

I watch CCL more than UCL now.

[lessthanjake]

+The general consensus in the footballing world is that Ronaldo is probably the GOAT of the Champions League!

Di Stefano exists.

Fair point, but I do think most would give it to Ronaldo at this point—especially given how long ago Di Stefano played. For purposes of my post, though, the relevant thing is just that the general consensus is that Ronaldo would be above Messi on a Champions League GOAT list.

Messi derives his GOAT status overall from the existence of the other contexts where he has won more and also has better box stats.

He has probably the strongest case, Pele still exists though.

Agreed, though assessment of Pele is genuinely difficult due to a relative lack of film so it’s hard to really know exactly how he stacks up with Messi—he’s definitely the biggest contender with Messi though IMO. That said, the most relevant thing for purposes of this discussion is that Messi is widely considered greater than Ronaldo due to the existence of the many non-Champions-League contexts where he has won more and also has better “box stats.” In the competition where Ronaldo has won more and has similar or better box stats, he is generally considered greater than Messi.

[70sFan]

+The general consensus in the footballing world is that Ronaldo is probably the GOAT of the Champions League!

Di Stefano exists.

Fair point, but I do think most would give it to Ronaldo at this point—especially given how long ago Di Stefano played. For purposes of my post, though, the relevant thing is just that the general consensus is that Ronaldo would be above Messi on a Champions League GOAT list.

Messi derives his GOAT status overall from the existence of the other contexts where he has won more and also has better box stats.

He has probably the strongest case, Pele still exists though.

Agreed, though assessment of Pele is genuinely difficult due to a relative lack of film so it’s hard to really know exactly how he stacks up with Messi—he’s definitely the biggest contender with Messi though IMO. That said, the most relevant thing for purposes of this discussion is that Messi is widely considered greater than Ronaldo due to the existence of the many non-Champions-League contexts where he has won more and also has better “box stats.” In the competition where Ronaldo has won more and has similar or better box stats, he is generally considered greater than Messi.

You're talking with 70sFan, era doesn't matter to me

We actually have relatively many Pele games (though most of them past his prime) and we can evaluate his abilities, which were definitely incredible. I don't have the horse in this race though, Messi is legit GOAT candidate.

[TheGOATRises007]

Di Stefano exists.

Fair point, but I do think most would give it to Ronaldo at this point—especially given how long ago Di Stefano played. For purposes of my post, though, the relevant thing is just that the general consensus is that Ronaldo would be above Messi on a Champions League GOAT list.

He has probably the strongest case, Pele still exists though.

Agreed, though assessment of Pele is genuinely difficult due to a relative lack of film so it’s hard to really know exactly how he stacks up with Messi—he’s definitely the biggest contender with Messi though IMO. That said, the most relevant thing for purposes of this discussion is that Messi is widely considered greater than Ronaldo due to the existence of the many non-Champions-League contexts where he has won more and also has better “box stats.” In the competition where Ronaldo has won more and has similar or better box stats, he is generally considered greater than Messi.

You're talking with 70sFan, era doesn't matter to me

We actually have relatively many Pele games (though most of them past his prime) and we can evaluate his abilities, which were definitely incredible. I don't have the horse in this race though, Messi is legit GOAT candidate.

There are a good amount of Pele's full games on 1 website even during his prime.

But 60% of his video footage was all destroyed in a fire at a Santos camp once from what I heard.

[70sFan]

Fair point, but I do think most would give it to Ronaldo at this point—especially given how long ago Di Stefano played. For purposes of my post, though, the relevant thing is just that the general consensus is that Ronaldo would be above Messi on a Champions League GOAT list.



Agreed, though assessment of Pele is genuinely difficult due to a relative lack of film so it’s hard to really know exactly how he stacks up with Messi—he’s definitely the biggest contender with Messi though IMO. That said, the most relevant thing for purposes of this discussion is that Messi is widely considered greater than Ronaldo due to the existence of the many non-Champions-League contexts where he has won more and also has better “box stats.” In the competition where Ronaldo has won more and has similar or better box stats, he is generally considered greater than Messi.

You're talking with 70sFan, era doesn't matter to me

We actually have relatively many Pele games (though most of them past his prime) and we can evaluate his abilities, which were definitely incredible. I don't have the horse in this race though, Messi is legit GOAT candidate.

There are a good amount of Pele's full games on 1 website even during his prime.

But 60% of his video footage was all destroyed in a fire at a Santos camp once from what I heard.

Yeah, it's more than what we have from Wilt and Bill... even with years of my efforts.

[lessthanjake]

You're talking with 70sFan, era doesn't matter to me

We actually have relatively many Pele games (though most of them past his prime) and we can evaluate his abilities, which were definitely incredible. I don't have the horse in this race though, Messi is legit GOAT candidate.

There are a good amount of Pele's full games on 1 website even during his prime.

But 60% of his video footage was all destroyed in a fire at a Santos camp once from what I heard.

Yeah, it's more than what we have from Wilt and Bill... even with years of my efforts.

FWIW, I feel similarly about Wilt and Russell. For people that we don’t have fulsome film on, we should have a healthy bit of uncertainty about exactly how good they were. Which goes both ways by the way. My point about Pele isn’t that he can’t be the GOAT because of a lack of footage. I think if we had fulsome footage, we could potentially find that he was even *better* than we thought!

That said, do you know why we have less footage of Wilt and Russell? Wasn’t the NBA televised at the time? Were their games mostly televised and the tapes have been lost? Or were their games mostly not actually televised, even though games were occasionally on TV? I’m not sure the answer to that question. I’m assuming it’s the latter since I think the NBA was just on network TV at the time so I assume only a small percent of games were televised. But if their games were widely seen on television contemporaneously and we just don’t have them anymore, then I do think that’d be meaningfully different than Pele, whose games weren’t widely seen at the time either (aside from the World Cup and obviously by people who attended in person). That’d at least give more credence to contemporaneous perception at the time. But I really have no idea the actual facts on this, and I suspect you might know a lot better than I do.

[B-Mitch 30]

TV programs weren't filmed back then in general Jake.

[TheGOATRises007]

FWIW, I feel similarly about Wilt and Russell. For people that we don’t have fulsome film on, we should have a healthy bit of uncertainty about exactly how good they were. Which goes both ways by the way. My point about Pele isn’t that he can’t be the GOAT because of a lack of footage. I think if we had fulsome footage, we could potentially find that he was even *better* than we thought!

Oh Pele's absolutely in my GOAT conversation and it's very annoying to read how often he gets disrespectful by football casuals.

Think of how one_and_done views past players and multiply it x2 for how certain casuals view Pele.

He's pretty much the 1st global superstar athlete and Brazil viewed him as a national treasure. Brazil as a footballing nation wouldn't be Brazil without Pele. They were perennial underachievers before his ascension as a teenager.

But it's a shame we don't have more footage of past legends in every sport.

[70sFan]

There are a good amount of Pele's full games on 1 website even during his prime.

But 60% of his video footage was all destroyed in a fire at a Santos camp once from what I heard.

Yeah, it's more than what we have from Wilt and Bill... even with years of my efforts.

FWIW, I feel similarly about Wilt and Russell. For people that we don’t have fulsome film on, we should have a healthy bit of uncertainty about exactly how good they were. Which goes both ways by the way. My point about Pele isn’t that he can’t be the GOAT because of a lack of footage. I think if we had fulsome footage, we could potentially find that he was even *better* than we thought!

That said, do you know why we have less footage of Wilt and Russell? Wasn’t the NBA televised at the time? Were their games mostly televised and the tapes have been lost? Or were their games mostly not actually televised, even though games were occasionally on TV? I’m not sure the answer to that question. I’m assuming it’s the latter since I think the NBA was just on network TV at the time so I assume only a small percent of games were televised. But if their games were widely seen on television contemporaneously and we just don’t have them anymore, then I do think that’d be meaningfully different than Pele, whose games weren’t widely seen at the time either (aside from the World Cup and obviously by people who attended in person). That’d at least give more credence to contemporaneous perception at the time. But I really have no idea the actual facts on this, and I suspect you might know a lot better than I do.

I don't know why exactly, I do know that the league does everything to collect all the old footage that still exists and hide it for us. Why do they do that? I have no idea...

[EmpireFalls]

It’s very possible that SGA is having a prime-level Jordan season right now. I originally pushed back on it but seeing the utter domination vs the Cavs has changed my view a bit. There’s absolutely zero statistical boxes that he doesn’t hit compared to MJ. His efficiency is thru the roof. He gets whatever he wants pretty much at all times and has fouls to rely on when that fails. He gives the offense such a high floor because he punishes mismatches or even slightly unbalanced defenses ruthlessly. How many of his baskets were 4 second dribble-shoot bailouts at the end of the shot clock, probably 5 or 6? He’s just relentless as well.

I really don’t have an argument RS wise for Kobe or MJ being “better” than this. In fact I’d go as far as to say that there is zero argument for it.

All eyes on the playoffs now.

[GSP]

It’s very possible that SGA is having a prime-level Jordan season right now. I originally pushed back on it but seeing the utter domination vs the Cavs has changed my view a bit. There’s absolutely zero statistical boxes that he doesn’t hit compared to MJ. His efficiency is thru the roof. He gets whatever he wants pretty much at all times and has fouls to rely on when that fails. He gives the offense such a high floor because he punishes mismatches or even slightly unbalanced defenses ruthlessly. How many of his baskets were 4 second dribble-shoot bailouts at the end of the shot clock, probably 5 or 6? He’s just relentless as well.

I really don’t have an argument RS wise for Kobe or MJ being “better” than this. In fact I’d go as far as to say that there is zero argument for it.

All eyes on the playoffs now.

Zero argument for an Mj season over this? this is like when ppl were saying Harden is having a better scoring season than Mj lol. Prolly on pace to be better than any Kobe Rs but not even clearly above 09 Wade nvm "zero argument" for an Mj season

[EmpireFalls]

It’s very possible that SGA is having a prime-level Jordan season right now. I originally pushed back on it but seeing the utter domination vs the Cavs has changed my view a bit. There’s absolutely zero statistical boxes that he doesn’t hit compared to MJ. His efficiency is thru the roof. He gets whatever he wants pretty much at all times and has fouls to rely on when that fails. He gives the offense such a high floor because he punishes mismatches or even slightly unbalanced defenses ruthlessly. How many of his baskets were 4 second dribble-shoot bailouts at the end of the shot clock, probably 5 or 6? He’s just relentless as well.

I really don’t have an argument RS wise for Kobe or MJ being “better” than this. In fact I’d go as far as to say that there is zero argument for it.

All eyes on the playoffs now.

Zero argument for an Mj season over this? this is like when ppl were saying Harden is having a better scoring season than Mj lol. Prolly on pace to be better than any Kobe Rs but not even clearly above 09 Wade nvm "zero argument" for an Mj season

So far, in the regular season, yeah I don’t really see an argument for any MJ season being clearly better. It’s all in similar areas at the moment.

Long way to go… but that’s the territory we’re in.

[Jaqua92]

It’s very possible that SGA is having a prime-level Jordan season right now. I originally pushed back on it but seeing the utter domination vs the Cavs has changed my view a bit. There’s absolutely zero statistical boxes that he doesn’t hit compared to MJ. His efficiency is thru the roof. He gets whatever he wants pretty much at all times and has fouls to rely on when that fails. He gives the offense such a high floor because he punishes mismatches or even slightly unbalanced defenses ruthlessly. How many of his baskets were 4 second dribble-shoot bailouts at the end of the shot clock, probably 5 or 6? He’s just relentless as well.

I really don’t have an argument RS wise for Kobe or MJ being “better” than this. In fact I’d go as far as to say that there is zero argument for it.

All eyes on the playoffs now.

Zero argument for an Mj season over this? this is like when ppl were saying Harden is having a better scoring season than Mj lol. Prolly on pace to be better than any Kobe Rs but not even clearly above 09 Wade nvm "zero argument" for an Mj season

So far, in the regular season, yeah I don’t really see an argument for any MJ season being clearly better. It’s all in similar areas at the moment.

Long way to go… but that’s the territory we’re in.

No, it isn't. At all. You're talking about the greatest to ever play, at his best, not having an argument over SGA.

Months from now, just remember, you guys are setting him up here.

This is unprecedented. Not his play, but that some of you are calling an unproven player better than the GOAT at his peak, based on less than half a season sample size is absurd

[Jaqua92]

It’s very possible that SGA is having a prime-level Jordan season right now. I originally pushed back on it but seeing the utter domination vs the Cavs has changed my view a bit. There’s absolutely zero statistical boxes that he doesn’t hit compared to MJ. His efficiency is thru the roof. He gets whatever he wants pretty much at all times and has fouls to rely on when that fails. He gives the offense such a high floor because he punishes mismatches or even slightly unbalanced defenses ruthlessly. How many of his baskets were 4 second dribble-shoot bailouts at the end of the shot clock, probably 5 or 6? He’s just relentless as well.

I really don’t have an argument RS wise for Kobe or MJ being “better” than this. In fact I’d go as far as to say that there is zero argument for it.

All eyes on the playoffs now.

Zero argument for an Mj season over this? this is like when ppl were saying Harden is having a better scoring season than Mj lol. Prolly on pace to be better than any Kobe Rs but not even clearly above 09 Wade nvm "zero argument" for an Mj season

OKC fans need to come down to earth. I've never seen anything like this.

[EmpireFalls]

MJ wasn’t always the GOAT, once upon a time he was just Michael, putting up shockingly similar advanced stats to current SGA, on a remarkably similar game style as well.

It appears that the frothing-at-the-mouth hero worship defense you see of Lebronettes and Jordanites on the GB applies here too.

Make a legitimate argument for a MJ regular season being clearly better than this one, so far. I don’t see the case for it being clearly better, and I’ve really tried. MJ obviously has a massive edge overall in their careers but this is a terrifyingly good start to a season, without their key big to boot.

[homecourtloss]

Zero argument for an Mj season over this? this is like when ppl were saying Harden is having a better scoring season than Mj lol. Prolly on pace to be better than any Kobe Rs but not even clearly above 09 Wade nvm "zero argument" for an Mj season

So far, in the regular season, yeah I don’t really see an argument for any MJ season being clearly better. It’s all in similar areas at the moment.

Long way to go… but that’s the territory we’re in.

No, it isn't. At all. You're talking about the greatest to ever play, at his best, not having an argument over SGA.

Months from now, just remember, you guys are setting him up here.

This is unprecedented. Not his play, but that some of you are calling an unproven player better than the GOAT at his peak, based on less than half a season sample size is absurd

The only thing that is absurd is the hagiography that keeps people from looking at a new type of basketball.

Did the “greatest ever” ever have a season like this without his best teammate? Currently, SGA has a higher on-court rating than Jordan did playing with his 1996 superteam in a watered-down league. Nothing anybody says about SGA right now is hyperbolic—he is by far the best player on a team that is ripping other teams to shreds in the most talented era of basketball. Who is his best teammate right now? Chet Holmgren has been injured; Caruso has been injured; Jalen Williams is still a growing player; Dort is a good defensive layer; Hartenstein has been a very good player these last two seasons. What about this roster screams highest SRS ever?

[EmpireFalls]

If it makes you feel better, I can replace “Jordan” with “LeBron” or “Steph” or “Kobe”, or really any perimeter player ever. This is astonishing stuff from Shai, although at the same time, there have been dozens of truly astonishing seasons from previous players. All I’ve said is that I can’t make a case that one is clearly better, at least not yet. What would that case even be based on? You aren’t winning any advanced or Net Rating stat argument over SGA. You also can’t use winning games. His efficiency is incredible and he fits that high shot volume + low TO archetype perfectly for Kobe + Jordanheads who insist on that player build.

I actually think his defense is slightly overrated, you could poke holes in it by saying he isn’t even the best defender on his team (Caruso+Dort+a healthy Chet)… but they would be very tiny holes. Especially given his stocks numbers and insane defensive rating.

I don’t like the amount of foul baiting trickery he employs and do wonder how he’ll hold up in the postseason. But right now, he is playing at a level that can hold a candle to anyone, ever, and I genuinely never expected this from him.

[jalengreen]

If it makes you feel better, I can replace “Jordan” with “LeBron” or “Steph” or “Kobe”, or really any perimeter player ever. This is astonishing stuff from Shai, although at the same time, there have been dozens of truly astonishing seasons from previous players. All I’ve said is that I can’t make a case that one is clearly better, at least not yet. What would that case even be based on? You aren’t winning any advanced or Net Rating stat argument over SGA. You also can’t use winning games. His efficiency is incredible and he fits that high shot volume + low TO archetype perfectly for Kobe + Jordanheads who insist on that player build.

I actually think his defense is slightly overrated, you could poke holes in it by saying he isn’t even the best defender on his team (Caruso+Dort+a healthy Chet)… but they would be very tiny holes. Especially given his stocks numbers and insane defensive rating.

I don’t like the amount of foul baiting trickery he employs and do wonder how he’ll hold up in the postseason. But right now, he is playing at a level that can hold a candle to anyone, ever, and I genuinely never expected this from him.

Throw JDub in there. Better than Dort imo

[lessthanjake]

I don’t think there’s MJ regular seasons that are clearly better than this, because it’s basically impossible to be clearly better than a guy with a 11+ BPM and a +15.5 on-off leading his team to a 12+ SRS.

That said, I do think the “doing it without Chet” aspect is being pretty overblown. Chet’s primary value is as a defender. And he’s really good on defense IMO. But the Thunder have been able to run Hartenstein at center instead in all but 5 or 6 games Chet has been out, and he’s a fantastic defender too. Hartenstein is currently ranked 3rd in the NBA in Defensive EPM, and was ranked 3rd last season too. The reason the Thunder aren’t missing a beat without Chet is a lot about Hartenstein. I realize today is maybe an odd moment to make this point, since they just easily beat the Cavs without either one, but I do think we’d see a drop off in general without Chet if they’d not picked Hartenstein up. That was a really great front office move. And the prospect of the team potentially having both of them healthy—and therefore able to have at least one of them on the court all the time—is definitely interesting/scary.

[OldSchoolNoBull]

There may not be an MJ season clearly better than this, but I would argue SGA's is not clearly better either. It's comparable, you could make arguments either way, and that alone is a huge compliment to SGA. I would offer a few thoughts:

1. Looking at SGA's numbers, it does not look like he is a different player this year than he was last year(or, to a lesser extent, the year before) in any significant way. These are his numbers for the last three seasons:

23: 31.4/5.5a/4.8r/1.6s/1.0b, 62.6% TS, +4.9
24: 30.1/6.2a/5.5r/2.0s/0.9b, 63.6% TS, +11.4
25: 31.4/6.0a/5.5r/2.0s/1.1b, 64.0% TS(+6.6 rTS), +15.4

He's marginally better in some areas this season, but it's not a huge difference. The biggest difference is probably on the defensive end. But the hype is way bigger this season than it was last season. Why? Is there something I'm missing in his individual numbers this season, or is it the bigger team numbers - W/L, SRS, etc - fueling they hype in conjunction with his individual numbers?

2. If it is the team numbers, I would simply point out that their rel ORtg this season is +3.1, down from +4.2 last season, whereas their rel DRtg this season is -9.8, up from -3.2 last season. This makes it appear as though the Thunder's marked improvement so far this season is more on the defensive end than on the offensive end. If that is the case, I don't know how much of the credit for that should be given to Shai, as opposed to internal defensive improvements from Williams/Dort/etc, and the impact of the additions of Caruso(an elite POA defender) and Hartenstein(who is a good defender and a big body in the middle - he's got like 50 pounds on Holmgren).

This is not to diminish what SGA is doing, but rather to gently push back on the notion that the Thunder's improvement this season is simply a reflection of SGA's incredible performance. Of course he's the best player, but there may be more to it.

3. Someone said that MJ isn't winning an advanced stat argument against SGA, which is quite possibly correct...because most advanced stats don't exist for MJ's best seasons. If we're talking about impact metrics, I mean. But consider this. We have partial RAPM for 1988 and 1991 - two of MJ's signature individual seasons - via Squared. For 1988, MJ is at 7.47(43 game sample), and for 1991, he's at 6.40(57 game sample). Shai is presently at 4.8, according to nbagameflow.com.

4. If we compare Jordan's 1991 season to SGA's current season:

Jordan 91: 31.5/5.5a/6.0r/2.7s/1.0b, 60.5% TS(+7.1 rTS)
SGA 25: 31.4/6.0a/5.5r/2.0s/1.1b, 64.0% TS(+6.6 rTS)

The box stats are uncannily similar, but Jordan is about a half a point higher in relative efficiency. (Though the OP said "in this league", so perhaps relative efficiency isn't wholly relevant here?)

And if we look at the team's rel ORtgs, the 91 Bulls were at +6.7 compared to the Thunder's +3.1.

So, if he's scoring on the same volume on higher efficiency while leading a better offense, and his RAPM is higher...it's an argument(for that season at least).

------------------

At any rate, I don't mean to imply that Shai is having anything less than an incredible season and, like I said, the fact that we're even legitimately comparing him to these guys is amazing. I just hope the hype isn't getting out of control.