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Something I feel doesn't get discussed enough on these boards, and something I feel should be an ongoing conversation regarding the league today is the defensive impact of perimeter players that are exceptionally good 3 point line defenders while still committing to the common NBA tactic of shading off their man to help on paint penetration.

With the increasing prevalence of the 3 pointer in the league (numbers are only trending upwards in nearly every conceivable 3 point category as the seasons go on), being able to effectively close out on shooters while preventing blow by's and penetration is a skill that's becoming increasingly valuable in the NBA. The point I'm trying to make is that effective perimeter defenders that can help wall off the paint on penetration and effectively shut down 3 point shooters actually have a larger impact on the game than fans like to give them credit for, especially relative to bigs.

Big men that can patrol the paint are seen as having a large impact because they effectively end possessions for the opposition that lead to good shots at the rim. In much the same way, elite help defenders end possessions by effectively closing out on shooters through either taking them out of their rhythm on set shots or causing them to hold the ball and reset the offense which generally leads to less efficient shots due to sets breaking down.

If the name of the game on defense is to prevent the opponent from taking good shots, why is it that we as basketball fans fail to see the value in players that are consistently excellent in getting over screens/avoiding being screened (which helps to prevent the breakdown that occurs from the second line of defense rotating over to stop penetration), and are able to contest shooters on kick outs effectively. Especially the ones that cover enough ground to be able to take that extra step or two over towards the paint that completely changes how penetrating wings negotiate defensive breakdowns.

And with this in mind, perhaps the whole idea of big men being the only viable candidates for DPoY awards may see a shift in upcoming years. I welcome any thoughts on this.

tldr; Maybe perimeter defenders that shut down the 3 ball consistently have more of an impact on the game than we seem to give them credit for.

Heej wrote:And with this in mind, perhaps the whole idea of big men being the only viable candidates for DPoY awards may see a shift in upcoming years. I welcome any thoughts on this.

I think that successful perimeter defense involves team-wide rotations, so it's really hard to single one guy (cough, LeBron, cough) as being so much better than everyone else.

It's much easier to identify a defensive big man who is the heart and soul of a team defensively. Those types of players aren't going to stop being really important.

This is an interesting point, but how does one defend the three specifically? It's almost always a standard jumpshot (sometimes a set shot), but it's not something that requires a special skill. I think magicmerl is spot on, it's mostly about making sure nobody's left wide open, which is a team effort. If somebody doesn't get to the open guy, that means the rotation fell apart.

Interesting to see the change 1 year brings. Kawhi Leonard winning DPotY. Kyle Korver being widely considered the lynchpin of the offense for the top Eastern Conference team. The devastating effect Tony Allen's erasing of Klay Thompson had on the Golden State offense during their second round series.

I believe perimeter defense (ESPECIALLY PG defense) is absurdly undervalued by fans in terms of its importance in the league today. Any further thoughts ?

fpliii wrote:This is an interesting point, but how does one defend the three specifically? It's almost always a standard jumpshot (sometimes a set shot), but it's not something that requires a special skill. I think magicmerl is spot on, it's mostly about making sure nobody's left wide open, which is a team effort. If somebody doesn't get to the open guy, that means the rotation fell apart.

well, remember danny green in the 2013 finals games 1-5 and then afterwards? Or Kyle Korver through the RS vs the playoffs?

Eg What Miami did is they forced Green to put the ball on the floor to get a shot off and also they pressured him before the catch with light shading. These guys are still role players; they can't handle that type of attention on a sustained basis.

Swagalicious wrote:

fpliii wrote:This is an interesting point, but how does one defend the three specifically? It's almost always a standard jumpshot (sometimes a set shot), but it's not something that requires a special skill. I think magicmerl is spot on, it's mostly about making sure nobody's left wide open, which is a team effort. If somebody doesn't get to the open guy, that means the rotation fell apart.

well, remember danny green in the 2013 finals games 1-5 and then afterwards? Or Kyle Korver through the RS vs the playoffs?

Eg What Miami did is they forced Green to put the ball on the floor to get a shot off and also they pressured him before the catch with light shading. These guys are still role players; they can't handle that type of attention on a sustained basis.

Great point, there's a lot more that individual defenders/teams can do today (as long as they're adept playing defense with their feet of course as opposed to their arms, since hand-checking has been gradually curtailed since 78-79).

I've always been a big proponent of the dominant defensive big, but some of these perimeter guys have been able to have an awesome impact in recent years. I'm going to bump this thread, since I think it's related to this one.

Big guys impact the 3 point defense. If you have Gobert as your C, your perimeter players can gamble more, can close out more on 3 PT shooters because they know Gobert got their back.

Heej wrote:Interesting to see the change 1 year brings. Kawhi Leonard winning DPotY. Kyle Korver being widely considered the lynchpin of the offense for the top Eastern Conference team. The devastating effect Tony Allen's erasing of Klay Thompson had on the Golden State offense during their second round series.

I believe perimeter defense (ESPECIALLY PG defense) is absurdly undervalued by fans in terms of its importance in the league today. Any further thoughts ?

This is one of those rare times where bumping a thread - and bumping your own thread - is entirely appropriate. I don't remember seeing your thread before, but it was spot on.

I don't think there's any doubt that in the era of pace & space, the value of defenders with what we call "horizontal game" have gone up compared to those whose impact comes from occupying kew real estate through their verticality.

Also, that includes point guards...but I'm still not seeing indicators that point guards can truly have DPOY levels of impact in any kind of typical circumstances. And frankly I would say the reason for that is that the ideal defender of point guards is a guy who is bigger & longer than the point guard he's up against. While at times we see guys like that actually play the 1, more often than not for offensive reasons the 1 is going to be point guard-sized, and hence is going to need help to seriously manage against a top tier offensive point guard.

Joao Saraiva wrote:Big guys impact the 3 point defense. If you have Gobert as your C, your perimeter players can gamble more, can close out more on 3 PT shooters because they know Gobert got their back.

This is true as well. I am SO excited to see what Gobert becomes.

It's important to note though: Gobert can really move. I really don't know if Mark Eaton would be able to thrive in today's game, but certainly there's room for an insanely long guy who moves with fluidity and seems to have great instincts.

Additionally I think the real point here is not that the MVPs of defense have outright changed positions, but rather than there's just a change in emphasis that has meant that it's truly possible for a great defensive wing to match great defensive bigs. However, I think we're also still waiting to see what the new "perfect storm" defender looks like, the guy who has the edge bigs have with much of the strengths that are helping the wings.

I got so excited about Anthony Davis because I saw that ability in him. Oddly, as he's not looking like the guy who will very shortly be the best player in the world, he's disappointed to a degree on defense. Maybe if Thibs comes to NO Davis will re-emerge as the archetypical defender for the new era, but at this point Gobert seems like the top candidate.

Doctor MJ wrote:

Heej wrote:Interesting to see the change 1 year brings. Kawhi Leonard winning DPotY. Kyle Korver being widely considered the lynchpin of the offense for the top Eastern Conference team. The devastating effect Tony Allen's erasing of Klay Thompson had on the Golden State offense during their second round series.

I believe perimeter defense (ESPECIALLY PG defense) is absurdly undervalued by fans in terms of its importance in the league today. Any further thoughts ?

This is one of those rare times where bumping a thread - and bumping your own thread - is entirely appropriate. I don't remember seeing your thread before, but it was spot on.

I don't think there's any doubt that in the era of pace & space, the value of defenders with what we call "horizontal game" have gone up compared to those whose impact comes from occupying kew real estate through their verticality.

Also, that includes point guards...but I'm still not seeing indicators that point guards can truly have DPOY levels of impact in any kind of typical circumstances. And frankly I would say the reason for that is that the ideal defender of point guards is a guy who is bigger & longer than the point guard he's up against. While at times we see guys like that actually play the 1, more often than not for offensive reasons the 1 is going to be point guard-sized, and hence is going to need help to seriously manage against a top tier offensive point guard.

In regards to Point Guards I believe there's a lot more value in delaying offensive sets now by cluttering passing lanes, getting around/forcing players away from screens etc. In today's league the amount of screens on-ball defenders get hit with is at an all time high and it's simply not possible to play flawless contain defense all the time which means it's always necessary for help defenders to step up and help contain drives.

But we see time and time again what happens when teams allow this current crop of PGs to get to the paint with a head of steam. These possessions usually lead to defensive breakdowns with frenzied recoveries by help defenders that end up with wide open 3s as the ball gets swung around the perimeter. In terms of EV I'd wager allowing middle penetration to a pg that can make plays in the paint and a cavalry of spaced out shooters is right up there with transition offense.

Having a hypothetical otherworldly defender at this position would essentially take away a whole sub section of High EV plays that healthy offenses rely on to thrive and mitigate the impact of inevitable crappy offensive possessions. Not only will blowing up pick and rolls meant to get your preferred shot impact the other team mentally, from a physical standpoint consistently being forced to swing the ball around and get into your secondary offense wears players down too.

Part of the reason why I feel it's devalued by metrics is that we're in the golden era of PGs. It's hard to look like a good defender when everyone you're matched up with night in and night out is highly competent relative to most other positions save PF. I may seem all over the place with this but what I'm getting at is Basketball is such a nuanced game that I find it hard to believe that the ability to defend the oppositions main playcaller/initiator at a high level doesn't carry more defensive impact.

Cutting off the head of the snake is a euphemism common to many sports and it seems to me it's more if an indication that the current metrics we have now can't properly quantify the impact of doing so successfully.

Joao Saraiva wrote:Big guys impact the 3 point defense. If you have Gobert as your C, your perimeter players can gamble more, can close out more on 3 PT shooters because they know Gobert got their back.

Little guys that close out on 3 point shooters properly don't put their bigs in situations where they may end up fouling, giving up a dump off or lob pass, or get out of defensive rebounding position going for a contest. Big guys may help clean up for little guys' mistakes but the little guys are also keeping these bigs out of bad positions defensively and allowing them to finish up defensive possessions cleaning up boards and staying out of foul trouble. It's a 2 way street my friend.

Heej wrote:

Joao Saraiva wrote:Big guys impact the 3 point defense. If you have Gobert as your C, your perimeter players can gamble more, can close out more on 3 PT shooters because they know Gobert got their back.

Little guys that close out on 3 point shooters properly don't put their bigs in situations where they may end up fouling, giving up a dump of or lob pass, or get out of defensive rebounding position going for a contest. Big guys may help clean up for little guys' mistakes but the little guys are also keeping these bigs out of bad positions defensively and allowing them to finish up defensive possessions cleaning up boards and staying out of foul trouble. It's a 2 way street my friend.

Of course perimeter defenders also help their bigs. I didn't suggest otherwise.

I just said great bigs can impact the perimeter defense.

Joao Saraiva wrote:

Heej wrote:

Joao Saraiva wrote:Big guys impact the 3 point defense. If you have Gobert as your C, your perimeter players can gamble more, can close out more on 3 PT shooters because they know Gobert got their back.

Little guys that close out on 3 point shooters properly don't put their bigs in situations where they may end up fouling, giving up a dump of or lob pass, or get out of defensive rebounding position going for a contest. Big guys may help clean up for little guys' mistakes but the little guys are also keeping these bigs out of bad positions defensively and allowing them to finish up defensive possessions cleaning up boards and staying out of foul trouble. It's a 2 way street my friend.

Of course perimeter defenders also help their bigs. I didn't suggest otherwise.

I just said great bigs can impact the perimeter defense.

Ah gotcha. But that's the thing with defense playing with better players naturally makes you look better. Case in point, Stephen Curry.

It's good to see the rhetoric shift though. Basketball will aways be a game ruled by size but as Doctor MJ points out, the importance of playing defense East-West or horizontally will only continue to rise relatively speaking.

Isn't this sort of hard to quantify defensive impact what RAPM and similar stats are supposed to show that conventional box scores don't?

In modern NBA all individual defense is at least indirectly tied to defending the 3 imo. Better individual defense means less need to help off shooters