RealGM 2020 Top 100 Project: #18

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RealGM 2020 Top 100 Project: #18 

Post#1 » by trex_8063 » Tue Nov 17, 2020 11:46 pm

2020 List
1. LeBron James
2. Michael Jordan
3. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar
4. Bill Russell
5. Tim Duncan
6. Wilt Chamberlain
7. Magic Johnson
8. Shaquille O'Neal
9. Hakeem Olajuwon
10. Larry Bird
11. Kevin Garnett
12. Kobe Bryant
13. Jerry West
14. Oscar Robertson
15. Dirk Nowitzki
16. Karl Malone
17. David Robinson
18. ???

Target stop time somewhere around 5pm EST on Thursday.

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Re: RealGM 2020 Top 100 Project: #18 

Post#2 » by eminence » Tue Nov 17, 2020 11:51 pm

Would just like to say I'm very fine with folks who are fluid in their voting process. I would say I have some set criteria I follow (roughly era dominance based on play, with a preference for longevity and a fairly even offense/defense balance) but I have no problem with someone who's growing their criteria with every ballot.

Democracy.

And congrats to Robinson! A worthy pick here.
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Re: RealGM 2020 Top 100 Project: #18 

Post#3 » by Odinn21 » Wed Nov 18, 2020 12:00 am

18. Moses Malone
I believe this will be my most controversial choice so far but I'm pretty confident in this pick.
His single season peak was tier 2 on overall for me. I'd put 1982 or 1983 Moses in the same tier as 2004 Garnett, even though I'd rate Garnett slightly higher. One of the things going for Moses though, his 3 season peak from 1980-81 to 1982-83 is definitely at the top level among the available names. He does not come short in peak, extended peak, prime and extended prime for me. His career resume is also massive.
He was one of the most skilled bigs on offense. His name rarely comes up among the best low post scorers but he literally had every move in his book and he was at least pretty good on some and great or best on most. Look at the players he thought; Hakeem Olajuwon and Charles Barkley. Also he was at least as good as old man Duncan from mid range.
The arguments against him usually go such as this;
- "He wouldn't be that good in the modern times which utilize PnR far more."
Portability is very important, yes. But, TBH, this is like saying Oscar Robertson did not shoot enough threes to me. Don't see the point of penalizing a player for a play style that was not there in his time.
Also, one of the things that gets easily overlooked while thinking about Moses' portability is that he's quite possibly the greatest foul drawing big. That would make wonders in any era. I don't have the exact numbers right now because BBRef made their play index service paid but I know that Moses Malone before fell out of his prime made young Hakeem Olajuwon fouled out in majority of their h2h games. I wrote the exact numbers in the past on the forum, if I find, I'll edit this part.
- "He was a negative impact on defense."
This is flat out wrong and it's not about some preference unlike the previous point. If Moses Malone was a negative impact on defense, then how did the Sixers improved on defense after losing their best defender in order to get Moses?
1982 Sixers; 7th in DRtg with -3.0 rDRtg
1983 Sixers; 5th in DRtg with -3.8 rDRtg
The thing about his defense was, he was inconsistent. He had bad defensive seasons and good defensive seasons, in the end both sides would cancel out each other and I'd put down Moses Malone as an average defender. But I never get the point of talking about him as if he was Nowitzki who got way more traction than him so far.
- "He was not an impact player."
This is also one of the wrong assumptions about him. I think I watched enough games of him to get the sense of a very positive impact player.
Also there was a Dipper 13 thread at the time, showing on/off Rtg numbers for the '80s Sixers. I'm looking for that, couldn't find it so far. If anyone has the link, it'd be appreciated.
Edit; Found it.
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1ZxRM9p2dFil5w6s21VEB4HnQZJymEY8_2vej-jREuUo/edit#gid=459687126
Just look at the numbers he had in '83 and '85 in Philly. (I tend to consider 1984 of Moses as something like 2005 for Bryant, a down year but also an outlier.)

The only aspect I'd hold against him is his passing. He was not a black hole, he was a decent facilitator. Though his passing lacked in some sense and you wouldn't see him those cutting passes to a guard under the basket. That type of stuff was the only major gap in his game for me.
His skillset was great, his scoring volume was great, he had the proper impact on offense, he's among one of the greatest rebounders. We usually overlook rebounding, the neutral aspect of the game, in this offense and defense evaluations. His defensive inconsistencies and passing issues are there to be addressed surely but, his great qualities are enough for me to put him on 14th spot.

Note: I have been voting for Malone since the #12 thread for the #14 spot.

19. George Mikan
To be honest, I probably even watched footages of Bob Pettit way more than Mikan, let alone Russell or other '60s legends. But Mikan's legacy and impact has to be in the top 20. I'll never be sure about his exact placement on the list but it's time I start to include him on my ballot.

20. Julius Erving
Among remaining names, it's hard for me to put Barkley, Curry or Durant ahead of Erving for career value. Erving not replacing his ABA impact in NBA usually gets held against him but I don't see him as a worse player in 1977 compared to 1976 just because there was the merger. I just don't agree with that notion. Also, from 1980 to 1982, IMO his impact was nothing short of his successful days in ABA. Maybe his performance was a notch below. But I feel like that time frame before Bird's (and Magic's prime) is underrated and looking at those 3 seasons on overall, Kareem, Moses and Dr. J were all great and they were all-time level great. It's one of the time frames that's underappreciated for battle for the best player.

---

A quick recap with changes compared to the 2017 list so far;

1. LeBron James (+2)
2. Michael Jordan (-1)
3. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar (-1)
4. Bill Russell -
5. Tim Duncan -
6. Wilt Chamberlain -
7. Magic Johnson -
8. Shaquille O'Neal -
9. Hakeem Olajuwon -
10. Larry Bird -
11. Kevin Garnett (+1)
12. Kobe Bryant (-1)
13. Jerry West (+2)
14. Oscar Robertson (-1)
15. Dirk Nowitzki (+2)
16. Karl Malone (-2)
17. David Robinson (+1)

I don't agree with Garnett jumping ahead of Bryant. Also similarly for West jumping Robertson and Nowitzki jumping Malone, but probably more strongly about these 2.
Also Erving was 16th in the 2017 project. Even if he gets in now, he'll be the biggest loser so far. I'm not sure if I agree with it but I have Moses ahead of him, even though I can change him with Mikan, I won't have him ahead of Moses.
The issue with per75 numbers;
36pts on 27 fga/9 fta in 36 mins, does this mean he'd keep up the efficiency to get 48pts on 36fga/12fta in 48 mins?
The answer; NO. He's human, not a linearly working machine.
Per75 is efficiency rate, not actual production.
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Re: RealGM 2020 Top 100 Project: #18 

Post#4 » by Dr Positivity » Wed Nov 18, 2020 12:03 am

My top 2 here are Erving and Pettit. Many players are either short on prime season (Curry, Wade, etc.) or have something in their personality I don't love (Barkley, Paul). Erving and Pettit are excellent MVP players who did it for consistent and long enough time, highly respected leaders, high peaks in the playoffs.
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Re: RealGM 2020 Top 100 Project: #18 

Post#5 » by sansterre » Wed Nov 18, 2020 12:22 am

I'm happy to crunch hellocentrism scores / SRS scores (I can do postseason too), as well as playoff regular season offense/defense numbers and drop-offs for all players under discussion if that's something that would be of interest to others.
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Re: RealGM 2020 Top 100 Project: #18 

Post#6 » by eminence » Wed Nov 18, 2020 1:15 am

I've been championing Mikan and will continue to do so, but a bit of an aside - him being the 'first' giant is quite romanticized, he was simply the first great one. Shoun was ~6'11 for Akron all the way back in the 20's. Otten/Siewert/Morgenthaler/Hermsen all entered the league within a couple of years of Mikan, but only Otten really panned out. Plenty of other guys in the near 7 ft range played before or at the same time as Mikan, it's just none put it all together like Mikan(well, maybe Kurland). Anywho, the point is that a fair number of big guys tried to dominate the game, Mikan was the first to succeed.
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Re: RealGM 2020 Top 100 Project: #18 

Post#7 » by Magic Is Magic » Wed Nov 18, 2020 2:59 am

Voting for the #18 spot:

1. Kevin Durant
2. Charles Barkley
3. Doctor J

1. I really dislike Kevin Durant's move in 2017 but his overall resume is hard to ignore. 4x Scoring Champion, MVP, 4 Finals, 2 Finals MVPs, 11-straight seasons of 25 ppg or more, 10x All Star (approaching Oscar level who had 12), ROY. KD has averaged 25 ppg or higher every single playoff run and has one of the top 6 all time Finals when ranked by Game Score. He is 14th all time in MVP win shares, 10th all time in playoff points. Again, strongly dislike his move in 2017 but the rest is hard to ignore. I don't think any player not already included in the top 14 has that resume to match up with him.

-Top 10 all time playoff scoring (every one ahead of him in playoff points is already ranked ahead of him except for Tony Parker but KD will pass TP in his next playoff run in 2021 meaning he will be at least top 9 all time in playoff scoring)
-11-straight 25 ppg seasons
-EVERY playoff run is 25 ppg or higher
-4 Scoring Titles
-4 Finals
-2 Finals MVPs
-1 Regular season MVP
-No one else is close offensively if you ask me, and probably not even remotely close. He has that uncanny ability to pull off a 30 ppg 50/40/90 season, something that very few have ever been able to do



2. Charles Barkley. Sir Charles is a legend, but a ringless legend! If he won a championship I'm sure he would be much higher up but I find it very hard to make the top 15 without a championship when so many other ATGs were able to win a ring. 11x All-Star, 11x All NBA, 1993 MVP and a brilliant Finals performance too. He also has the only single playoff game in league history with a GameScore over 50.0 (1994, WC1). Charles rebounding ability was also on another level, especially for his height and he is a respectable top 25 in MVP win shares as well (Karl Malone is #8). I think 1993 is the one year where Jordan truly stopped someone from winning a championship because Barkley was on a roll and probably not losing to anybody except an all-time performance by MJ where had to average 40 ppg for the series to beat Chuck.

3. Upon more careful inspection it was brought to my attention I needed to put some more respect on Doctor J's name and thus this selection has been made. I'm not sure how much I should hold it against him that his best years were in the ABA but at any rate, Doctor J has had an impressive career either way. It can be said that MJ learned some of his moves from Doctor J and that alone says a lot, but allow me to continue. Julius Erving 3x Champ (2x NBA, 1x ABA) 12x All NBA (7x NBA, 5x ABA), 4x MVP (1x NBA, 3x ABA). So as I mentioned earlier, I wonder how much weight I give to his ABA accomplishments.
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Re: RealGM 2020 Top 100 Project: #18 

Post#8 » by DQuinn1575 » Wed Nov 18, 2020 3:44 am

eminence wrote:Would just like to say I'm very fine with folks who are fluid in their voting process. I would say I have some set criteria I follow (roughly era dominance based on play, with a preference for longevity and a fairly even offense/defense balance) but I have no problem with someone who's growing their criteria with every ballot.

Democracy.

And congrats to Robinson! A worthy pick here.


Agree, I didn’t come in with a set list, and am (hopefully) being open minded and changing my opinions on some players- while maybe being a little ( okay maybe more than a little) stubborn on others. Hopefully we all disagree a little, and it’s a good sign that people are willing to listen and change their opinions. And yes, Robinson was a great pick.
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Re: RealGM 2020 Top 100 Project: #18 

Post#9 » by penbeast0 » Wed Nov 18, 2020 3:54 am

Mikan still my pick for top spot. Easily the most dominant player ever outside of the big 5 of LeBron, Jordan, Russell, Wilt, and Kareem; more so than the others in our top 10 and you could put him ahead of Wilt and Kareem in that regard pretty easily too. You have to say that his competition was primitive and racially limited and that knocks him down a lot but I have him above the rest here.

The next two spots are a lot closer and a lot more problematic. In terms of shorter careers, I have Steph Curry who peaks the highest but has less than a 6 year prime. Julius Erving is also definitely in the mix here for me. If I want to win a title with this guy as my best player, Curry or ABA Erving are my first choices and Julius played a longer time although his first years in Philly where he was trying to fit in rather than take over as the primary are an issue.

1. George Mikan
2. Julius Erving
3. Steph Curry
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Re: RealGM 2020 Top 100 Project: #18 

Post#10 » by Dutchball97 » Wed Nov 18, 2020 10:15 am

Wow, 15-17 was a real rough stretch. Hope these longevity/regular season candidates are going to stop at some point.

Really not looking forward to having to vote Kawhi for 50 spots straight as I very much doubt he'll get traction around the 30-40 range considering the likes of Dr J, KD, Curry, Wade and Barkley can't even get ahead of Karl Malone or D-Rob.
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Re: RealGM 2020 Top 100 Project: #18 

Post#11 » by 70sFan » Wed Nov 18, 2020 10:40 am

Dutchball97 wrote:Wow, 15-17 was a real rough stretch. Hope these longevity/regular season candidates are going to stop at some point.

Really not looking forward to having to vote Kawhi for 50 spots straight as I very much doubt he'll get traction around the 30-40 range considering the likes of Dr J, KD, Curry, Wade and Barkley can't even get ahead of Karl Malone or D-Rob.

Again, you're assuming that Malone and Admiral were worse basketball players than KD, Dr J, Barkley or Wade. Not everyone agree with that.
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Re: RealGM 2020 Top 100 Project: #18 

Post#12 » by Dutchball97 » Wed Nov 18, 2020 10:58 am

70sFan wrote:
Dutchball97 wrote:Wow, 15-17 was a real rough stretch. Hope these longevity/regular season candidates are going to stop at some point.

Really not looking forward to having to vote Kawhi for 50 spots straight as I very much doubt he'll get traction around the 30-40 range considering the likes of Dr J, KD, Curry, Wade and Barkley can't even get ahead of Karl Malone or D-Rob.

Again, you're assuming that Malone and Admiral were worse basketball players than KD, Dr J, Barkley or Wade. Not everyone agree with that.


How am I assuming anything? If you can defend Karl Malone or D-Rob's peak over any of the guys listed be my guest but it's gonna be a scuffed argument. If play-offs isn't important to you, why not vote Giannis?
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Re: RealGM 2020 Top 100 Project: #18 

Post#13 » by 70sFan » Wed Nov 18, 2020 11:16 am

Dutchball97 wrote:
70sFan wrote:
Dutchball97 wrote:Wow, 15-17 was a real rough stretch. Hope these longevity/regular season candidates are going to stop at some point.

Really not looking forward to having to vote Kawhi for 50 spots straight as I very much doubt he'll get traction around the 30-40 range considering the likes of Dr J, KD, Curry, Wade and Barkley can't even get ahead of Karl Malone or D-Rob.

Again, you're assuming that Malone and Admiral were worse basketball players than KD, Dr J, Barkley or Wade. Not everyone agree with that.


How am I assuming anything? If you can defend Karl Malone or D-Rob's peak over any of the guys listed be my guest but it's gonna be a scuffed argument. If play-offs isn't important to you, why not vote Giannis?

If defense isn't important to you, then maybe you think that Robinson didn't peak high. Others value defense significantly higher though, so they can believe that Admiral was better than Durant or Barkley.

Giannis has 3 elite seasons, we don't vote for him for the same reason we don't vote for Bill Walton. Giannis isn't worse player than Durant in terms of peak.
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Re: RealGM 2020 Top 100 Project: #18 

Post#14 » by Dutchball97 » Wed Nov 18, 2020 11:23 am

70sFan wrote:
Dutchball97 wrote:
70sFan wrote:Again, you're assuming that Malone and Admiral were worse basketball players than KD, Dr J, Barkley or Wade. Not everyone agree with that.


How am I assuming anything? If you can defend Karl Malone or D-Rob's peak over any of the guys listed be my guest but it's gonna be a scuffed argument. If play-offs isn't important to you, why not vote Giannis?

If defense isn't important to you, then maybe you think that Robinson didn't peak high. Others value defense significantly higher though, so they can believe that Admiral was better than Durant or Barkley.

Giannis has 3 elite seasons, we don't vote for him for the same reason we don't vote for Bill Walton. Giannis isn't worse player than Durant in terms of peak.


Okay so play-offs really aren't important for you then if you see Giannis as having peaked higher than KD. Defense isn't half as important as offense in the NBA. Looking at the game in terms of offense on one hand and defense on the other hand is a highly flawed way of looking at things. Sure you could say D-Rob was close enough to Barkley and KD in terms of offense that his defense makes the difference but that only applies to the regular season. You're prioritizing the qualifying games over the games that actually matter.
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Re: RealGM 2020 Top 100 Project: #18 

Post#15 » by Amares » Wed Nov 18, 2020 11:45 am

Dutchball97 wrote:
70sFan wrote:
Dutchball97 wrote:
How am I assuming anything? If you can defend Karl Malone or D-Rob's peak over any of the guys listed be my guest but it's gonna be a scuffed argument. If play-offs isn't important to you, why not vote Giannis?

If defense isn't important to you, then maybe you think that Robinson didn't peak high. Others value defense significantly higher though, so they can believe that Admiral was better than Durant or Barkley.

Giannis has 3 elite seasons, we don't vote for him for the same reason we don't vote for Bill Walton. Giannis isn't worse player than Durant in terms of peak.


Okay so play-offs really aren't important for you then if you see Giannis as having peaked higher than KD. Defense isn't half as important as offense in the NBA. Looking at the game in terms of offense on one hand and defense on the other hand is a highly flawed way of looking at things. Sure you could say D-Rob was close enough to Barkley and KD in terms of offense that his defense makes the difference but that only applies to the regular season. You're prioritizing the qualifying games over the games that actually matter.


This is greatest careers list, not greatest 3-4 playoffs periods. So players like Kawhi we can consider top 50 by now, but they need few more good years at least to be ~top25 considerations. Other than that D-Rob at his prime was clearly better than Durant, Barkley or Wade, and it's playoffs included. Saying defense isn't half as important as offense you just prove your lack of knowledge about this game. Also players like Barkley or Wade has no reason to be above Malone, not only he achieved more than both, but had comparable prime and much better longevity.
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Re: RealGM 2020 Top 100 Project: #18 

Post#16 » by Dutchball97 » Wed Nov 18, 2020 11:52 am

Amares wrote:
Dutchball97 wrote:
70sFan wrote:If defense isn't important to you, then maybe you think that Robinson didn't peak high. Others value defense significantly higher though, so they can believe that Admiral was better than Durant or Barkley.

Giannis has 3 elite seasons, we don't vote for him for the same reason we don't vote for Bill Walton. Giannis isn't worse player than Durant in terms of peak.


Okay so play-offs really aren't important for you then if you see Giannis as having peaked higher than KD. Defense isn't half as important as offense in the NBA. Looking at the game in terms of offense on one hand and defense on the other hand is a highly flawed way of looking at things. Sure you could say D-Rob was close enough to Barkley and KD in terms of offense that his defense makes the difference but that only applies to the regular season. You're prioritizing the qualifying games over the games that actually matter.


This is greatest careers list, not greatest 3-4 playoffs periods. So players like Kawhi we can consider top 50 by now, but they need few more good years at least to be ~top25 considerations. Other than that D-Rob at his prime was clearly better than Durant, Barkley or Wade, and it's playoffs included. Saying defense isn't half as important as offense you just prove your lack of knowledge about this game. Also players like Barkley or Wade has no reason to be above Malone, not only he achieved more than both, but had comparable prime and much better longevity.


That's what I said about Kawhi though? His longevity isn't good enough yet to be top 20 but I'm afraid some people would rather vote for someone like Robert Parish instead of Kawhi due to longevity, while Parish wasn't even close to the player Kawhi is. Longevity should augment peak, not overrule it.

Your arguments for D-Rob and Karl Malone are just as hollow as 70sfan's arguments. Which are none. D-Rob is clearly better? Well you know I disagree so why don't explain it to me instead of just stating unsubstantiated claims?

Anyway if you're gonna act high and mighty over my basketball knowledge you can **** right off tbh. In a game where the majority of possessions end in points, while misses aren't even always caused by the defense, you can't claim offense and defense have a 1:1 ratio.

Next please.
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Re: RealGM 2020 Top 100 Project: #18 

Post#17 » by 70sFan » Wed Nov 18, 2020 12:05 pm

Dutchball97 wrote:Okay so play-offs really aren't important for you then if you see Giannis as having peaked higher than KD.

Based on what? At Durant's peak (2014), he's been underwhelming scoring-wise in playoffs and he's worse playmaker and MUCH worse defender.

Defense isn't half as important as offense in the NBA.

This is another assumption from you, nothing else.
Looking at the game in terms of offense on one hand and defense on the other hand is a highly flawed way of looking at things.

This is true, which is why you should look at overall impact, not on offense which is what you do here. Admiral impacted the game more overall than Durant.
Sure you could say D-Rob was close enough to Barkley and KD in terms of offense that his defense makes the difference but that only applies to the regular season. You're prioritizing the qualifying games over the games that actually matter.

Admiral's defense was resiliant in playoffs though, which was already explained. Sure, his offense got worse but so did Durant's. I don't see any shift in playoffs in this comparison.
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Re: RealGM 2020 Top 100 Project: #18 

Post#18 » by Amares » Wed Nov 18, 2020 12:29 pm

Dutchball97 wrote:
Amares wrote:
Dutchball97 wrote:
Okay so play-offs really aren't important for you then if you see Giannis as having peaked higher than KD. Defense isn't half as important as offense in the NBA. Looking at the game in terms of offense on one hand and defense on the other hand is a highly flawed way of looking at things. Sure you could say D-Rob was close enough to Barkley and KD in terms of offense that his defense makes the difference but that only applies to the regular season. You're prioritizing the qualifying games over the games that actually matter.


This is greatest careers list, not greatest 3-4 playoffs periods. So players like Kawhi we can consider top 50 by now, but they need few more good years at least to be ~top25 considerations. Other than that D-Rob at his prime was clearly better than Durant, Barkley or Wade, and it's playoffs included. Saying defense isn't half as important as offense you just prove your lack of knowledge about this game. Also players like Barkley or Wade has no reason to be above Malone, not only he achieved more than both, but had comparable prime and much better longevity.


That's what I said about Kawhi though? His longevity isn't good enough yet to be top 20 but I'm afraid some people would rather vote for someone like Robert Parish instead of Kawhi due to longevity, while Parish wasn't even close to the player Kawhi is. Longevity should augment peak, not overrule it.

Your arguments for D-Rob and Karl Malone are just as hollow as 70sfan's arguments. Which are none. D-Rob is clearly better? Well you know I disagree so why don't explain it to me instead of just stating unsubstantiated claims?

Anyway if you're gonna act high and mighty over my basketball knowledge you can **** right off tbh. In a game where the majority of possessions end in points, while misses aren't even always caused by the defense, you can't claim offense and defense have a 1:1 ratio.

Next please.


You mention about none arguments like you would provide any for Malone/Barkley/Wade > D-Rob? But firstly you need to prove your ridiculous claim that "defense isn't half as important as offense in the NBA". Until you prove that, please don't waste my time even, it makes zero sense to compare players if you base on nonsenses like that. I can also mention offense is not even half as important as defense and laugh at your Barkley and Durant candidates with most all-time great defenders on plate.
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Re: RealGM 2020 Top 100 Project: #18 

Post#19 » by 70sFan » Wed Nov 18, 2020 12:42 pm

Hakeem and Duncan weren't better offensive players than Barkley either and nobody finds it ridiculous that they are much higher. Why different criteria for someone like Robinson?
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Re: RealGM 2020 Top 100 Project: #18 

Post#20 » by LA Bird » Wed Nov 18, 2020 12:46 pm

Complains about Dirk going 15th while claiming defense isn't half as important as offense. Huh?

70sFan wrote:Hakeem and Duncan weren't better offensive players than Barkley either and nobody finds it ridiculous that they are much higher. Why different criteria for someone like Robinson?

Because Robinson didn't win as a first option and that is often the only thing people look at when it comes to playoff performance.

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