Horford won't sign a Contract Extension before next summer

[PandaKidd]

^^^^^^^^^^Kicking the can down the road.

But , to be honest, Hawks fans kind of live that way. Delusional in the present, overly optimistic about the future.

[Jamaaliver]

^^^^^^^^^^Kicking the can down the road.

But , to be honest, Hawks fans kind of live that way. Delusional in the present, overly optimistic about the future.

What's frustrating, eye-opening, odd to think...

If we had this exact same veteran core, but had Giannis and Gorgui Dieng in the pipeline...we'd be in the ideal scenario. An above average veteran team with great young prospects to trade or build around.

That 2013 season where we held onto Josh and refused to embrace a full rebuild...really cost us in the long term.

[PandaKidd]

If they continue down this path (assuming a resign of AH/Baz3) then basically we are hoping THJ and Edy Tavere turn into Mozgov and..........like.........a 15ppg scorer.

[observer1995]

[quote="PandaKidd"]
they won 60 games last year because they played an injury decimated East without (DROSE, Paul George, Chris Bosh, D WAde)
[quote]

Funny to be bringing up this when in games that Atlanta was seriously trying to win, the only game in which Chicago or Miami has a legit health gripe is the last ATL vs MIA game last season.
In games that Atlanta was seriously trying to win, Rose was healthy both times and Bosh and Wade played in 2 of 3 games (didn’t really even need to do research to confirm this).
In fact who even gives a sh** about Rose’s health? His MVP form is gone and ain’t coming back…
(Notice I didn’t even bring up Indiana, they have a legit gripe on the entirety of last season as everyone on their team got hurt, not just George but I’ve watched them play a good amount and they are decent but not as good as 2011-2014)
The real difference hasn’t even been against those teams, it’s TBD if it is (late January-early February will uncover if whether it is), it’s not taking teams that are .500 or below seriously and getting totally burned five times already.

[PandaKidd]

They won 60 games in a conference that had 3 teams go to the playoffs under .500 or right at .500.

Rose was off an on last year.
George missed the entire season practically.
Wade wasnt healthy, Bosh was hurt mid way through the season. Im not talking about vs the hawks specifically, mainly that they had a cake walk to the ECF last year and it was a struggle.

The east is better now.

[MaceCase]

When you recognize that there's not a single contract on the Hawks guaranteed past 2016/17 with the cap also rising astronomically, perhaps the hyperbole on the Hawks being "locked in" or "SET" should be toned down....

But the thing is...Cap Space hasn't particularly served us well in the last decade plus.

By my count, cap space has directly led to going on 10 All-Star seasons from players acquired with it in the past decade. Perhaps our definitions of "well" differ.

Adding a young player entering their prime that might not be attainable in Free Agency doesn't seem like a complete disaster of an idea.

Yea, sounds a lot like Tim Hardaway Jr...........which you hated.

[Jamaaliver]

Adding a young player entering their prime that might not be attainable in Free Agency doesn't seem like a complete disaster of an idea.

Yea, sounds a lot like Tim Hardaway Jr...........which you hated.

Actually, I hated that we over paid for THJ.

I was advocating acquiring THJ even before we made the trade.

Trading a top 20 pick for an injured player coming off a down year was ill advised. ThIs has been my gripe regarding THJ

And yes, I have a multiple quotes confirming it if necessary.


Sent from my iPad using RealGM Forums

[PandaKidd]

We overpaid for THJ, we PROBABLY could have had THJ AND a top 20 pick. But we vastly overpaid for him.

Cap space leads us to TIER 2 PLAYERS, ever have never signed the big fish. EVER.

Shoot for Dwight Howard and CP3, sign PM and DMC.

Jamaal, who are we luring in FA that changes the face of this team if 4 out of the 5 starters return? I dont see a SG/SF that makes us vastly better.

92.9 was talking yesterday about THIS EXACT SAME THING im talking about (and you are) , that the team is headed toward re-upping an aging core if they dont make a move at the trade deadline. Mark Owen was saying (paraphrasing) " if you resign AH and Bazemore, what are you improving over this years team? in 2 years, those signings will look terrible because AH, i love him, hes a 15/7 guy and im not sure you want a guy on a max deal making that kind of money".

He advocated signing Derozan and Whiteside, do whatever it takes, make the trades now, whatever. He said we need to get younger, not lock into older aging bigs whose ceiling we have seen already. Get us youth in the pipeline, you have vet Millsap and SPlitter to coach knucklehead Whiteside, Derozan would give you the scorer/slasher you need.

I was shocked, thank god we arent the only ones.

[MaceCase]

Adding a young player entering their prime that might not be attainable in Free Agency doesn't seem like a complete disaster of an idea.

Yea, sounds a lot like Tim Hardaway Jr...........which you hated.

Actually, I hated that we over paid for THJ.

I was advocating acquiring THJ even before we made the trade.

Trading a top 20 pick for an injured player coming off a down year was ill advised. ThIs has been my gripe regarding THJ

And yes, I have a multiple quotes confirming it if necessary.


Sent from my iPad using RealGM Forums

So the front office demonstrated that they could match your "savvy" by acquiring a young talent "current teams would not have had a legit shot at getting them in Free Agency" but that's not satisfactory enough, you want to quibble on the how. It's early so I expect waffling.

[Jamaaliver]

So the front office demonstrated that they could match your "savvy" by acquiring a young talent "current teams would not have had a legit shot at getting them in Free Agency" but that's not satisfactory enough, you want to quibble on the how. It's early so I expect waffling.

What are you talking about?

Here's my take on the acquisition immediately following the draft:

Yeah, that's basically the market saying we overpaid. [THJ] was NOT valued that highly by anyone else.

Rules for overpaying

• The player is a transcendent talent that can't be duplicated
• There will likely be no other opportunity to acquire the player
• The move puts you over the top as a championship contender

This acquisition fits none of the above.

Here

Trading a first rounder for THJ WHILE STILL RECOVERING FROM A LINGERING INJURY was not a particularly savvy move by any means. Overpaying for a player no one wants is foolish.

At this point even Budenholzer acknowledges the move can and should be questioned.

Budenholzer said, “It’s very fair (that people are second-guessing that [THJ] deal). But I’m very happy with the work (Hardaway) is doing behind the scenes....

Here

[Jamaaliver]

...It's early so I expect waffling.

I've been pretty consistent in my opinion on the subject as well:

The issue isn't what Bud thinks he can get THJ to be in the system. The issue is VALUE. Hardaway, coming off a terrible season, simply wasn't worth the 19th pick straight up. Knicks underpaid, cleared an ill fitting piece from their roster and still got a kid they like in Grant.

Bad. Asset. Management. Bud and Wes got hussled.

Night of the Draft

Acquiring THJ isn't really a huge issue. I've actually advocvated getting him in a larger trade recently.

But trading him for ONLY the 19th pick seems like a poor use of resources on our part.

Even additional future 2nd rounders from NY could have made it slightly more palatable.

Day After the Draft

I agree. [THJ] could be good. I actually proposed a trade that would bring him over to us just a few weeks back.

But, I'm not sure Wes believes in THJ more BIG-PICTURE than any other player drafted after 14 last night.

I suspect they think he can contribute more IMMEDIATELY than other young collegiates. This draft move was about acquiring short term, immediate help. That's a strategy very much in line with Ferry's 1st round drafting (outside of 2013.)

...We're fighting to stay relevant now, future be damned.

Day After Draft

But the value of 19 just really seems greater than THJ when his stock was considered so low.

When every pundit, opposing GM and Knick fan all agree that the trade was a lopsided loss for the Hawks, the market has essentially confirmed we overpaid for a guy we probably could have gotten a few months back for 2nd rounders...or the future Minny pick.

Food for thought:

Is THJ really a markedly better option than John Jenkins?

Day After Draft

[Jamaaliver]

It's early so I expect waffling.

Don't want to be considered a 'waffle iron'. So I dug up a few more quotes:

Yeah. I'm torn cause I do like THJ. But, I agree. #19 was worth more than this kid. We can't effectively win any trades because we have so few highly regarded players to move.

But if we go into next season with the same exact core...at much higher salaries...with THJ as one of the few major upgrades

...does that get us closer to a title?

Day After Draft

2. I'm reserving judgment on THJ's abilities and fit until after the season. It's more about the value of that trade. The #15 pick we had last spring was simply worth more than THJ and a couple of future 2nd rounders. (In my humble opinion.)

If NY was interested in obtaining Grant or any other young prospect available at 19, we simply should have negotiated for more value in return. There's a reason most every analyst and pundit considered it a massive win for the Knicks. It's because the value we gave was much greater than what we received. Simple Market value.

3 Months after the Draft

But I digress. I simply wish Wes had gotten more for #15. Phil gifted JR, Shump, Tyson & , Amare...but somehow managed to scam us for THJ.

3 Months after Draft

If THJ goes on to have a long and prosperous Hawks career...GREAT. We'll have done well in the trade. (Particularly if no one drafted at 19 or later turns into a NBA caliber player.

But none of that changes the fact that AT THE TIME OF THE TRANSACTION we paid more than anything NYK could have possibly hoped to get elsewhere....I'm not sure a more experienced GM couldn't have gotten more by playing multiple teams against each other, having so many options on the table.

Three months after Draft

[MaceCase]

What are you talking about?

That you suggest a strategy to acquire young talent but become hyper-critical of the price paid for said talent. You could have saved yourself the afternoon had you spent the 10 seconds to read what I wrote.

[PandaKidd]

What are you talking about?

That you suggest a strategy to acquire young talent but become hyper-critical of the price paid for said talent. You could have saved yourself the afternoon had you spent the 10 seconds to read what I wrote.

Missing the point in multiple threads today?

If you had read his hypothesis, youd understand he wasnt mad at the THJ trade, he was mad at the price of the trade. Yes, the price you pay for assets should factor in the judging of said transaction.

Im not sure what is so hard to understand. Advocating we move a vet for a younger asset or picks isnt the same as trading a 1st round pick for THJ.

I mean go put a poll up in the GB , i guarantee almost everyone says we overpaid

[Jamaaliver]

Jamaal, who are we luring in FA that changes the face of this team if 4 out of the 5 starters return? I dont see a SG/SF that makes us vastly better.

I honestly don't know. There are no easy choices to jump into that top tier of teams.

Ferry and Bud made some aggressive choices that depleted the farm system...and when they didn't pan out, it left us lacking a bunch of assets/depth. It doesn't help that almost every team will have huge reserves of cash this offseason to pursue Free Agents.

But I still like the wings of ORL and MIL as trade targets. I like MKG. I LOVE everything I've seen/heard of Dario. But admit his adjustment to the NBA won't be a sure thing.

Had we better assets last summer, we could've obtained Nic Batum in trade.

I think LAC might approaching a point where they consider moving CP3. Having that salary on their squad precludes making big changes...but he's not good enough to carry them past SAS and GSW. (Teague and Blake could grow old together.)

I really like KCP in DETROIT. But no one else sees that potential I do. And It'd be too costly to acquire him.

Carmelo would push us back to the 2nd best team in the East...but wouldn't guarantee us a Finals run, plus would wreck our cap space. (I think.)

BRK is ready to rebuild...acquiring Brook Lopez wouldn't be terribly difficult if we can get the salaries close enough.

Kevin Martin is a guy who could start at SG immediately.

Just off the top of my head.

[Jamaaliver]

What are you talking about?

That you suggest a strategy to acquire young talent but become hyper-critical of the price paid for said talent. You could have saved yourself the afternoon had you spent the 10 seconds to read what I wrote.

I don't follow.

But I don't believe for a minute that THJ was some asset that would have been unobtainable any other way.

I have doubts NYK would have kept him in Restricted Free Agency.

I have doubts WE will keep him in Restricted Free Agency.

But, why are we arguing in the Horford thread about THJ?

Is this going to end with you telling me I'm God's mistake again?

because we disagree on sports stuff.......

[PandaKidd]

On the Horford front, back on topic, unless there are other major moves before the deadline, Id let him see what he can get elsewhere. I love AH, hes a perfect player to have in your orgnization, but, Im 100% against taking this core forward. There has to be major moves at the 1/2/3 spots. Either a trade of teague for picks, or aquiring a top tier SG/SF or both. If that comes at the expense of AH, then so be it. I think I value the other positions more than C at this point for 25 million

[MaceCase]

But, why are we arguing in the Horford thread about THJ?

You brought up Jeff Teague, Marcin Gortat, Kevin Martin, Jae Crowder, Nic Batum, Middleton, Tobias Harris, and a laundry list of other NBA players in a Horford thread. Maybe there would be less trouble following along if the topic wasn't shifted to half the NBA so often.

[Jamaaliver]

On the Horford front, back on topic, unless there are other major moves before the deadline, Id let him see what he can get elsewhere. I love AH, hes a perfect player to have in your orgnization, but, Im 100% against taking this core forward. There has to be major moves at the 1/2/3 spots. Either a trade of teague for picks, or aquiring a top tier SG/SF or both. If that comes at the expense of AH, then so be it. I think I value the other positions more than C at this point for 25 million

Makes sense. Burns my biscuits we allowed ourselves into this corner.

Once we had Tiago here making $8 million...no way I'd have re-signed Millsap. You try Horford at PF as the featured player on this team.

You instead use that $20 million (from passing on Millsap) to upgrade the wings and bench. You use the #15 pick to get a solid young piece for the future.

After the season, you know for certain whether Horfy can man the 4, if he's a franchise player worth a MAX contract. If Teague is the future at PG. And you still have all the flexibility to go in any direction after the season. Re-upping the Teague/Horford core...or dumping both and embracing the youth.

It hurts so bad we missed on Gobert/Dieng and gave up on Bebe for no gain. And wasted a pick on Adreian. And passed on Bobby Portis.

<sigh>

[jayu70]

You argue that we let Josh walk for nothing, and we should have traded him (for the record I wanted him gone when DF traded Joe and Marv but I understand why he didn't). The only offer for Josh was Milwaukee for Udrih and Udoh which meant we wouldn't have the capspace to sign Millsap. As for the draft pick in that deal it was a a protected 1st pick so chances are we would not have gotten it and it would have become a 2nd. Sometimes the best trade is no trade.
Now we should have let Millsap walk for Tiago?
Tiago can hardly stay on the floor in limited minutes off the bench and you want him starting? So are you saying we should have paid DMC in lieu of Millsap? You saw how we looked when Millsap fouled out of the Bucks game.