Welcome to Boston, Jaden Springer!

[shackles10]

Couple nice steals from Jaden tonight against Atl.

Definitely. You can see the potential, but he's not even been given a chance against backups so it's a highlight against end of bench buys. Gotta curb my enthusiasm at least a little because of that. The defense definitely looks to be there though so makes you wonder when our defense has struggled, there's been times when we could have used energy off the bench, but Joe hasn't turned to him once.

[Hal14]

Couple nice steals from Jaden tonight against Atl.

Definitely. You can see the potential, but he's not even been given a chance against backups so it's a highlight against end of bench buys. Gotta curb my enthusiasm at least a little because of that. The defense definitely looks to be there though so makes you wonder when our defense has struggled, there's been times when we could have used energy off the bench, but Joe hasn't turned to him once.

While Joe hasn't played him in meaningful mins, it's only been 8 games. And there's only been 2 games where we've given up more than 113 points (league average this season so far is 113 PPG).

With that being said, Joe also didn't play Springer in any meaningful mins last season after the trade either. If we get deeper into the season, like 20 or 25 games in and he's still only played in garbage time, then there probably isn't much sense in talking about him anymore.

But until then, I think there's at least some reason for optimism, especially since when he does get a chance in garbage time, he usually looks pretty good..

[shackles10]

Couple nice steals from Jaden tonight against Atl.

Definitely. You can see the potential, but he's not even been given a chance against backups so it's a highlight against end of bench buys. Gotta curb my enthusiasm at least a little because of that. The defense definitely looks to be there though so makes you wonder when our defense has struggled, there's been times when we could have used energy off the bench, but Joe hasn't turned to him once.

While Joe hasn't played him in meaningful mins, it's only been 8 games. And there's only been 2 games where we've given up more than 113 points (league average this season so far is 113 PPG).

With that being said, Joe also didn't play Springer in any meaningful mins last season after the trade either. If we get deeper into the season, like 20 or 25 games in and he's still only played in garbage time, then there probably isn't much sense in talking about him anymore.

But until then, I think there's at least some reason for optimism, especially since when he does get a chance in garbage time, he usually looks pretty good..

You know we will continue to talk about him though lol. In fairness there isn't much else to talk about. It's not like we have high draft picks or ability to make any meaningful trades.

[playa-hater]

Baring quite a few players being out Springer will not get the chance to look good. Hard enough for decent shooters/scorers to look good in garbage time, but an offensively challenged player will really struggle. Even if his jumper goes in occasionally, he looks so awkward and limited in most offensive situations.

I just think Stevens took a chance when he traded for Springer. It didn't work out as good as he hoped perhaps. And that is Ok. Impossible to bat 1000 on every player.

[Dogen]

Couple nice steals from Jaden tonight against Atl.

"Good Citizens! By lawful decree, on-ball theft is not considered a punishable offense in Springerstan. Rather, it is worthy of praise, moral admiration, and great reward in this life and the one beyond."

- The Ministry of Springerstan

[djFan71]

Definitely. You can see the potential, but he's not even been given a chance against backups so it's a highlight against end of bench buys. Gotta curb my enthusiasm at least a little because of that. The defense definitely looks to be there though so makes you wonder when our defense has struggled, there's been times when we could have used energy off the bench, but Joe hasn't turned to him once.

While Joe hasn't played him in meaningful mins, it's only been 8 games. And there's only been 2 games where we've given up more than 113 points (league average this season so far is 113 PPG).

With that being said, Joe also didn't play Springer in any meaningful mins last season after the trade either. If we get deeper into the season, like 20 or 25 games in and he's still only played in garbage time, then there probably isn't much sense in talking about him anymore.

But until then, I think there's at least some reason for optimism, especially since when he does get a chance in garbage time, he usually looks pretty good..

You know we will continue to talk about him though lol. In fairness there isn't much else to talk about. It's not like we have high draft picks or ability to make any meaningful trades.

At some point we'll need a 4th guard, it's just a matter of if he can capitalize enough to be worth the $. I've always thought he needs to have at least some playmaking/ball handling at his size. Less so on this team due to all the other players, but if you're going to fill in when Jrue rests or something, you need to be able to do something on both ends.

Iirc, he was G league Finals MVP playing at least some PG, so in theory it's in there. But, we've yet to really see it other than the one SL game. He may be a AAAA guy as a ball-handler. I'm struggling to come up with a D-only guard that's done much. Bigs, some wings, you can rattle off names. But guards I'm drawing a blank.

[Hal14]

At some point we'll need a 4th guard, it's just a matter of if he can capitalize enough to be worth the $. I've always thought he needs to have at least some playmaking/ball handling at his size. Less so on this team due to all the other players, but if you're going to fill in when Jrue rests or something, you need to be able to do something on both ends.

Iirc, he was G league Finals MVP playing at least some PG, so in theory it's in there. But, we've yet to really see it other than the one SL game. He may be a AAAA guy as a ball-handler. I'm struggling to come up with a D-only guard that's done much. Bigs, some wings, you can rattle off names. But guards I'm drawing a blank.

Dennis Smith Jr. Gary Payton II. Early career Caruso, early career Bruce Brown, Deanthony Melton is mostly just a defensive guard, early career Nickeil Alexander Walker, Jalen Suggs before his 3 ball started to fall, Miles McBride before the 3 ball started to fall, Jose Alvarado, Davion Mitchell, Dyson Daniels prior to this season has offered very little on offense, Kris Dunn has offered very little on offense for most of his career, etc.

He has upside as a shooter and as a driver. The ball handling/playmaking isn't great..he was a PG in college but more of a score-first PG..was a SG in HS, and hasn't played much PG since being drafted. When he was G league finals MVP he was more of a scorer as well as good defender. And he's only 22, so I do think there's some potential there as a guy who can hit open catch and shoot 3's and attack off the dribble here and there. But if all he gets for playing time is a few mins of garbage time here and there, he won't be able to develop those offensive skills enough.

[djFan71]

At some point we'll need a 4th guard, it's just a matter of if he can capitalize enough to be worth the $. I've always thought he needs to have at least some playmaking/ball handling at his size. Less so on this team due to all the other players, but if you're going to fill in when Jrue rests or something, you need to be able to do something on both ends.

Iirc, he was G league Finals MVP playing at least some PG, so in theory it's in there. But, we've yet to really see it other than the one SL game. He may be a AAAA guy as a ball-handler. I'm struggling to come up with a D-only guard that's done much. Bigs, some wings, you can rattle off names. But guards I'm drawing a blank.

Dennis Smith Jr. Gary Payton II. Early career Caruso, early career Bruce Brown, Deanthony Melton is mostly just a defensive guard, early career Nickeil Alexander Walker, Jalen Suggs before his 3 ball started to fall, Miles McBride before the 3 ball started to fall, Jose Alvarado, Davion Mitchell, Dyson Daniels prior to this season has offered very little on offense, Kris Dunn has offered very little on offense for most of his career, etc.

He has upside as a shooter and as a driver. The ball handling/playmaking isn't great..he was a PG in college but more of a score-first PG..was a SG in HS, and hasn't played much PG since being drafted. When he was G league finals MVP he was more of a scorer as well as good defender. And he's only 22, so I do think there's some potential there as a guy who can hit open catch and shoot 3's and attack off the dribble here and there. But if all he gets for playing time is a few mins of garbage time here and there, he won't be able to develop those offensive skills enough.

Most those guys except GPII & Dunn, maybe Melton, were getting time in hopes of developing on O or did develop it like you said. I was more meaning established 1-way defensive guards. But, yeah, there's always some.

I definitely wanna see what he can do. It really is all about the $ and opportunity. If he was min, we'd be talking about it so much less. There's even a world where he sticks the rest of the year and we decline the QO and resign him as a min. Not super likely, but if they still see the potential and aren't going to get under the 2nd apron anyways, it's a one-time cost.

It's about balancing if he'd be better than other vet mins and/or 30/32ish draft picks (or what they could consolidate too).

[Fencer reregistered]

The roster crunch is pretty ridiculous for Springer right now. White and Holiday are all-defensive-team guards who made the US Olympic Team. And Pritchard leads the betting odds right now for 6MotY.

Meanwhile, Joe has 4 natural SFs he's happy to play at the forward spots, and he also likes playing double big, so 3-guard minutes are scarce.

[redslastlaugh]

There’s just no minutes for Springer and even if Jrue/White are out on a given night, Jaden does not get the call.

Honestly, if we are so deep in the tax, I don’t get why Brad just didn’t make a pick at #41 and sign that player to a roster contract, such would have saved $3 million which is probably $12-$15 million in luxury taxes. Trading for Jaden Springer also locked up a roster spot so we couldn’t add a veteran at a vet min that would also cost less against the tax.

Overall the Jaden Springer move is the most head scratching thing since Brad took over. Like even if the team wasn’t coming up for sale, Brad/Zarren knew about the repeater tax and that Springer would be $12 million more than a vet minimum signing…

Anyway, it seems like Jaden may get waived and stretched and that Anton Watson will take his roster spot. This would reduce the tax bill by $5-7 million but put 1/3 of Springers money on next years cap and one third on 26-27 … so not ideal. But ultimately that’s what I’m expecting. I wish I could text Brad Stevens and ask, “what was the thinking on Jaden Springer on the financial side, I get you liked his defense but you thought Wyc would eat the tax bill… I don’t understand, where was the miscue.”

Perhaps at the time of the trade, Jrue extension talks had stalled. If the team thought Jrue might walk in FA then Springer makes sense as insurance. If Jrue leaves, the tax problems go away. But then we extended Jrue leaving us stuck with Springer who suddenly becomes this burden financially… Anyway, I’m betting he’s waive-and-stretch …

Unless it’s too late to waive-and-stretch, that may have to occur within the preseason window… I’m not sure.

EDIT: looked it up, were too late for waive-and-stretch, deadline is August 31. So scratch that idea

The roster crunch is pretty ridiculous for Springer right now. White and Holiday are all-defensive-team guards who made the US Olympic Team. And Pritchard leads the betting odds right now for 6MotY.

Meanwhile, Joe has 4 natural SFs he's happy to play at the forward spots, and he also likes playing double big, so 3-guard minutes are scarce.

[cl2117]

Can we just send this kid to the G League if he's not going to get any meaningful run with the big club?

At least if he's crushing it in the G it might stir up enough interest in him that a team operating under the tax will take a flyer on him rather than trying to extort us for draft capital. If teams are asking to be paid to take that contract off our hands now, that's not going to change with him rotting away on the bench.

I don't think Joe should shoehorn him into lineups just to showcase him or just because we invested in him a bit, but I just don't see the value in letting him sit idle with no path to minutes. With how he played in the preseason I'm pretty confident he can go to Maine and put up good numbers, let him do that and only bring him back if and when he's got a shot at getting off the pine or traded.

[165bows]

Can we just send this kid to the G League if he's not going to get any meaningful run with the big club?

At least if he's crushing it in the G it might stir up enough interest in him that a team operating under the tax will take a flyer on him rather than trying to extort us for draft capital. If teams are asking to be paid to take that contract off our hands now, that's not going to change with him rotting away on the bench.

I don't think Joe should shoehorn him into lineups just to showcase him or just because we invested in him a bit, but I just don't see the value in letting him sit idle with no path to minutes. With how he played in the preseason I'm pretty confident he can go to Maine and put up good numbers, let him do that and only bring him back if and when he's got a shot at getting off the pine or traded.

Yeah, would be nice to see him play there or somewhere - though I think the counterpoint is he's proved everything he can there.

I do wonder if he maybe isn't quite right physically, wasn't there some talk at one point about a knee thing earlier on?

[cl2117]

Can we just send this kid to the G League if he's not going to get any meaningful run with the big club?

At least if he's crushing it in the G it might stir up enough interest in him that a team operating under the tax will take a flyer on him rather than trying to extort us for draft capital. If teams are asking to be paid to take that contract off our hands now, that's not going to change with him rotting away on the bench.

I don't think Joe should shoehorn him into lineups just to showcase him or just because we invested in him a bit, but I just don't see the value in letting him sit idle with no path to minutes. With how he played in the preseason I'm pretty confident he can go to Maine and put up good numbers, let him do that and only bring him back if and when he's got a shot at getting off the pine or traded.

Yeah, would be nice to see him play there or somewhere - though I think the counterpoint is he's proved everything he can there.

I do wonder if he maybe isn't quite right physically, wasn't there some talk at one point about a knee thing earlier on?

That's fair and I guess the other worry is that if he went down and struggled it could kill his value even more. Still I feel there is an "out of sight, out of mind" element to this. If he's down there dominating, against admittedly poor competition, that still gives teams more things to get overexcited about than watching him waive a towel at the end of our bench.

I'm probably off base on that assumption given that teams don't generally take that approach but nevertheless it makes perfect sense to me. Send him down and let him get in rhythm to come back and contribute with us and/or dumped onto a team with the minutes/inclination to take a shot on him like we did.

[Hal14]

Overall the Jaden Springer move is the most head scratching thing since Brad took over. Like even if the team wasn’t coming up for sale, Brad/Zarren knew about the repeater tax and that Springer would be $12 million more than a vet minimum signing…

Anyway, it seems like Jaden may get waived and stretched and that Anton Watson will take his roster spot. This would reduce the tax bill by $5-7 million but put 1/3 of Springers money on next years cap and one third on 26-27 … so not ideal. But ultimately that’s what I’m expecting. I wish I could text Brad Stevens and ask, “what was the thinking on Jaden Springer on the financial side, I get you liked his defense but you thought Wyc would eat the tax bill… I don’t understand, where was the miscue.”

It's really not that much of a head scrather, imo.

There's 3 different types of players you could get to fill the end of bench spots:
-Vet ring chasers like Blake Griffin
-Guys who are a bit older (typically age 25-29), have been around the league a bit but are just end of bench guys cause they're not that good, low upside. But at least you know what you're gonna get from them, they can come in and play a role here and there (Svi, Brissett, Kornet when we first got him, etc.)
-Younger guys (age 24 and under...less than 4 full seasons of NBA experience) who have upside we can try to develop (Hauser and Pritchard were once in this bucket, so was Banton, Walsh, Queta, Springer)

Springer simply fits into that last bucket. He was only 21 yrs old when we got him, with only 2 full years of NBA experience - and a good chunk of that 2 years was in the G league.

It was an upside swing. It was like playing the lottery, basically. A low risk, high reward move. The potential was crazy high. Former 5 star recruit, was a 1st round pick. Really good athleticism. Potential to be an elite defender, who also shot the ball well from 3 in college (43.5% from 3 and 81% FT) and in G league showed very good ability to score on drives and in the mid range. A guy who was only 21, came into the NBA *very* young so understandable that it may take him longer to develop. But the team that drafted him was ready to move on (to clear cap space for Paul George) so it was a classic example of a guy who could end up breaking out for his 2nd team... what they call a "2nd draft" guy.

And all it took was a mid 2nd round pick to get him. Mid 2nd round picks are all lottery tickets anyways. Most don't work out, but occasionally they do. They're low risk, high reward.

Sure, we could saved some $ by just keeping that mid 2nd round pick and not making the trade. But clearly, Brad saw something in Springer and felt like the probability of Springer "hitting" was higher than some guy we could take in the mid 2nd round of a draft that was considered one of the weaker ones in recent memory (and that outweighed any potential tax savings). Especially since we already had *two* other picks in that draft..I don't think Brad was ever going to draft 3 guys in the same draft. Prior to the 2024 draft, he only took 1 guy in each of the first 3 drafts since taking over as POBO.

Plus he probably figured that Springer's contract could be a useful trade chip since we could move him and acquire a player making up to $4.0 mil which means we could get a better player in return than if we had some random minimum contract guy in that roster spot who was only making like $2 mil. So we'd only be able to trade that player for a guy making up to $2 mil..so that limits our options and means we likely can't trade for a player who is as good as if we traded Springer.

So Brad probably felt like it was low risk, high reward..and that Springer could end up being a solid player for us..but if there was a logjam and not enough mins for him, we could always just trade him and use that contract as a valuable trade chip to get a decent player in return, at a position of greater need...or perhaps you just trade the contract away to save $.

Either way, I don't think the Celtics org really minds that much about the $7 mil or so in additional tax from having Springer on the team. What they care about is winning championships. And they try to save some $ on the tax bill here and there where they can (like having Pritchard, Hauser, Kornet, Queta and Tillman on team friendly deals..Jrue, Derrick and KP all signed for less $ than they could have gotten if they waited to hit free agency. You add up all the $ savings from those deals, it's a lot more than $7 mil.

[Hal14]

I do wonder if he maybe isn't quite right physically, wasn't there some talk at one point about a knee thing earlier on?

Yes..he had a knee injury when we first traded for him, causing him to miss a few games. And earlier this season he missed some time with a knee injury..

It could certainly factor in to why he has barely gotten any playing time here.

Other factors could also be that he isn't much of a shooter - on a team that shoots more 3's than any team in NBA history. He's the 2nd youngest guy on a veteran team. Not much mins available on a deep/talented team that brought everyone back from their championship squad.

Chances are, all of it factors in a bit..

[Dogen]

"Don't Fade the Springer" (sung to the melody of "Don't Fear the Reaper")



Come on, Celtics (don't fade the Springer)
JT, take my hand (don't fade the Springer)
We'll be able to fly (don't fade the Springer)
Joey, I'm your man

La, la, la, la, la
La, la, la, la, la

[phincsfan]

I do wonder if he maybe isn't quite right physically, wasn't there some talk at one point about a knee thing earlier on?

Yes..he had a knee injury when we first traded for him, causing him to miss a few games. And earlier this season he missed some time with a knee injury..

It could certainly factor in to why he has barely gotten any playing time here.

Other factors could also be that he isn't much of a shooter - on a team that shoots more 3's than any team in NBA history. He's the 2nd youngest guy on a veteran team. Not much mins available on a deep/talented team that brought everyone back from their championship squad.

Chances are, all of it factors in a bit..

Yup to the bold.

I'm leaning towards the shooting part. Outside of Luke and Neems, everybody else can shoot the ball (not really Walsh also ). Teams know that and they have to respect that. A 7ftr like Luke and Neems can take advantage of a PnR to the basket of a drive to a lob. IMO, Springer will do more negative for the offensive end when he's on the floor. Play off him and crowd the paint with somebody. Not good for a team that relies on spacing. even if he plays for 5 minutes, it can't be during a close game.

The thing with Jordan if somebody says "hey, then why is Walsh getting minutes?" Because he's taller, longer and could make an impact not just on the defensive end but he can get rebounds. Gimme that guy over a 6'3" guy who can't shoot.

If the coaches don't trust you, it's pretty impossible to trust yourself.

[Fierce1]

I read an article where the Cs trade Springer for Westbrook via 3-team trade.

[Parliament10]

I read an article where the Cs trade Springer for Westbrook via 3-team trade.

That's gotta be in a comic book, of Bizarro World?

[Hal14]

I'm leaning towards the shooting part. Outside of Luke and Neems, everybody else can shoot the ball (not really Walsh also ). Teams know that and they have to respect that. A 7ftr like Luke and Neems can take advantage of a PnR to the basket of a drive to a lob. IMO, Springer will do more negative for the offensive end when he's on the floor. Play off him and crowd the paint with somebody. Not good for a team that relies on spacing. even if he plays for 5 minutes, it can't be during a close game.

The thing with Jordan if somebody says "hey, then why is Walsh getting minutes?" Because he's taller, longer and could make an impact not just on the defensive end but he can get rebounds. Gimme that guy over a 6'3" guy who can't shoot.

If the coaches don't trust you, it's pretty impossible to trust yourself.

To be fair, Springer is 6'4", not 6'3". And it's a bit disingenuous to say Walsh can get rebounds but Springer can't, when Springer is doing a much better job of rebounding this season..their TRB% so far this season:

Springer 13.8%
Walsh 6.7%

Of course, you do have to factor in that Springer has only played garbage time (where the stats don't mean as much and the competition is easier) whereas Walsh has played a decent % of his mins in non-garbage time, which could factor in to the discrepancy in their TRB%. But I'd still say it's a bit disingenuous to say Walsh can rebound but Springer can't.

I think it just comes down to the fact that Walsh was better in preseason than Springer, he's probably been better in practice. Walsh is younger, taller/longer so he has been getting more mins. Yet Walsh has even been struggling lately to get consistent mins - especially since KP returned to the lineup..and with Peterson possibly leapfrogging him in the rotation. So it does seem like Mazzulla prefers guys with more offensive skill to them - at least when it comes to non-bigs..

BTW, it's also worth noting some other stat comparisons this far this season with Springer and Walsh:
Steals %: Springer 6.1, Walsh 1.4
Assist %: Springer 16.2, Walsh 2.7
BPM: Springer -1.6, Walsh -4.6
FTr: Springer .571, Walsh, .038

(FTr is an indicator of a player's ability to drive the ball, pressure the rim, draw fouls, get to the FT line)