Eurobasket 2022 (daily OP updates), day 11, all quarter finals teams known, Italy shocks Europe, eliminates Serbia

[UcanUwill]

I have no idea why we (Greece) have such good odds here. I don't think that we're going to be very good.

Giannis is amazing, don't get me wrong, but in FIBA competitions he can be slowed down. The major difference in the ruleset affects him quite a lot. His playstyle is a perfect fit for the NBA but it can be countered in FIBA competitions.

I know, I have been one of the biggest Giannis critics, and FIBA Giannis struggles are real. But still, oddmakers do put odds on who they think will most likely win, they try to predict what actual gamblers think, and a lot of people I imagine just see Giannis and expect Greece will be huge.

Giannis just need spacing, and other players are just such a crap fit. I mean who even are best Greek players beside Giannis right now, I guess Papagianis and Calathes. Neither can shoot at all. Papapetrou and Thanasis cant shoot either. Its Giannis with non shooters, a recipe for disaster. I dont know what is situation on Dorsey, if he plays for Greece, I imagine at least him and Sloukas and Papanikolau should be on the court with Giannis at all times, make Calathes and Papagiannis second lineup guys and let them run pick and rolls when Giannis sits.

[Nuntius]

I know, I have been one of the biggest Giannis critics, and FIBA Giannis struggles are real. But still, oddmakers do put odds on who they think will most likely win, they try to predict what actual gamblers think, and a lot of people I imagine just see Giannis and expect Greece will be huge.

That's a great point. I didn't take into account that they try to predict what actual gamblers think.

Giannis just need spacing, and other players are just such a crap fit. I mean who even are best Greek players beside Giannis right now, I guess Papagianis and Calathes. Neither can shoot at all. Papapetrou and Thanasis cant shoot either. Its Giannis with non shooters, a recipe for disaster.

Yeah, I know. That's why I don't think it will work

[Nuntius]

I have no idea why we (Greece) have such good odds here. I don't think that we're going to be very good.

PG Kostas Sloukas / Nick Calathes
SG Tyler Dorsey / Giannoulis Larentzakis
SF Ioannis Papapetrou / Kostas Papanikolaou / Thanasis Antetokounmpo
PF Giannis Antetokounmpo / Dinos Mitoglou
C George Papagiannis / Kostas Antetokounmpo / Vassilis Kavvadas

Coach: Dimitris Itoudis

If all the players were available to play, the roster would probably be something like that. It looks quite strong on paper. The problem is Greece usually has 5-10 of its best players missing in every tournament, since like 2009.

But that might be different now that they finally kicked out the insane old club team run federation, and put an actual independent sports body in. A lof of the players didn't want to play because they hated the federation.

The other big problem Greece had since 2009 was that all of the coaches it had (except Pitino) were downright awful. Now they have one of the best European coaches, which is an enormous upgrade from what they usually have.

So it's possible that the best players actually show up now and the coaching should finally be proper. With that being said, it's a team with Calathes, Sloukas, and Dorsey at the guard positions..........

Calathes is the worst shooter to ever play at point guard in EuroLeague history. He makes Rubio look like Curry...

Sloukas has a very low basketball IQ, he's a horrible defender, and he is a gigantic choker. He's like the AntiSpanoulis - you almost expect him to choke the game away.

Dorsey offers nothing to a basketball team other than being able to hit open jumpers off screens. He's probably the least skilled guard Greece had in decades.

So, there are a couple of reasons to be very optimistic for Greece (new coach and new federation), but that guard rotation is so atrociously awful, when you compare it to what standard of play that Greece's guards usually were over the last 40 years (Galis / Giannakis), (Papaloukas / Diamantidis), (Spanoulis / Zisis). It's still drastically worse guards than the players since like the 70s.

And as you said, so fare Giannis's production has a huge decline under FIBA rules, when he plays with Greece. Maybe he can change that at some point, but his game is 100% made for NBA rules and reffing, and is one of the worst kinds of skill sets for FIBA rules and reffing.

Ah, Vasilakopoulos is out? I had no idea. I had given up hope on it so I didn't keep up with news. That is indeed great to hear.

And, yeah, Itoudis is indeed a very good coach so that's good too.

[Mirotic12]

Ah, Vasilakopoulos is out? I had no idea. I had given up hope on it so I didn't keep up with news. That is indeed great to hear.

And, yeah, Itoudis is indeed a very good coach so that's good too.

The Greek sports system finally replaced him, by, if I remember the details right, putting in a rule that he was too old to stay in charge of the federation. They also finally took away his control of the Greek league's refs. The result was that immediately a normal coach (Itoudis), instead of the recent parade of clown coaches joined the NT, and Olympiacos instantly won the Greek double.

There is absolutely zero chance of that ever happening under the old federation's "leadership". In 100 years, Olympiacos would have not won the Greek double under the previous federation. So yeah, the long nightmare of the federation finally ended.

They put the owner of Promitheas in charge of the federation. He's considered to be one of the best basketball executives in Europe.

[Mirotic12]

I know, I have been one of the biggest Giannis critics, and FIBA Giannis struggles are real. But still, oddmakers do put odds on who they think will most likely win, they try to predict what actual gamblers think, and a lot of people I imagine just see Giannis and expect Greece will be huge.

Giannis just need spacing, and other players are just such a crap fit. I mean who even are best Greek players beside Giannis right now, I guess Papagianis and Calathes. Neither can shoot at all. Papapetrou and Thanasis cant shoot either. Its Giannis with non shooters, a recipe for disaster. I dont know what is situation on Dorsey, if he plays for Greece, I imagine at least him and Sloukas and Papanikolau should be on the court with Giannis at all times, make Calathes and Papagiannis second lineup guys and let them run pick and rolls when Giannis sits.

Papanikolaou can't shoot either. Actually, Papapetrou is a better shooter than he is. If you are basing it on shooting ability, then Larentzakis would be the clear choice over Papanikolaou.

[CharityStripe34]

Yeah, perhaps Itoudis can come up with some lineups to maximize spacing for Gianni but it's not awesome considering the woeful guard situation. It's a shame that Gianni came along and became the best player alive from Greece, only for the rest of the NT to be in a major dry spell in terms of talent. So fun thinking of having Diamantidis, Spanoulis and Papaloukas all playing alongside him at the same time. Sigh....

[UcanUwill]

I imagine putting Papanikolaou as big near Giannis, Giannis as center, Papanikolau as other big, then Sloukas, Dorsey and find another good shooter guard, and its a lineup I would go. Not sure if Greece has better spacer as Papanikolau at big position, I mean Papa can play, he is legit 6'8 and strong boy,

[Mirotic12]

I imagine putting Papanikolaou as big near Giannis, Giannis as center, Papanikolau as other big, then Sloukas, Dorsey and find another good shooter guard, and its a lineup I would go. Not sure if Greece has better spacer as Papanikolau at big position, I mean Papa can play, he is legit 6'8 and strong boy,

Larentzakis is one of the best shooters in Europe. He's got a quick release, really deep range, and he's a natural shooter. He just doesn't play much because he has a bad tendency to try to do too much and make boneheaded plays. He's a better shooter than Dorsey is though, so they have another shooter at 2/3 if they need it.

They could also select Georgios Tsalmpouris to the team, if they wanted a stretch the floor big man at the 4/5 position. Tsalmpouris is 7-2 and he's quite a good long distance shooter. I just don't think he would get much playing time though, because the 3 bigs Papagiannis. Kostas A., and Kavvadas should man the 5 spot. So it's not like Tsalmpouris would play much at 4, backing up Giannis. Unless Giannis played at the 5 as you say, but I don't see it.

They already tried playing Giannnis at the 5 in two different summers. It didn't work at all. He's not big enough or heavy enough to guard the real centers. Most European teams have 1-2 huge 7 feet+ 280+ type guys and they would just throw Giannis around like a rag doll under the rim. Remember it's not the NBA, where you can't physically impose on Giannis, because the refs will call a foul. In FIBA, they almost always let those big guys bang and be physical, and that's a 30-50 pound weight difference for Giannis against a lot of those bigs. I think Giannis' brother Kostas, would likely be the team's small ball 5 instead.

That is unless, if FIBA started reffing Giannis like they used to ref Pau Gasol. Defenders couldn't touch Pau at all in FIBA, like Spain owned the refs in almost every game. It was weird. But normally they let the bigs be physical and that certainly was how it was before, when they tried to use Giannis at the 5. He was giving up way too much rebounds and points around the basket.

But yeah, they could probably use Giannis at the 5, in certain match ups. But it's probably unlikely to work against any true bigs for too long on defense and the boards. Just think how in FIBA, the big man can just stand in the lane. Imagine Giannis trying to deal with Gobert or Boban under the basket on defense, with FIBA rules, physicality and reffing.

[UcanUwill]

Who exactly would rag doll Giannis

[CharityStripe34]

I imagine putting Papanikolaou as big near Giannis, Giannis as center, Papanikolau as other big, then Sloukas, Dorsey and find another good shooter guard, and its a lineup I would go. Not sure if Greece has better spacer as Papanikolau at big position, I mean Papa can play, he is legit 6'8 and strong boy,

Larentzakis is one of the best shooters in Europe. He's got a quick release, really deep range, and he's a natural shooter. He just doesn't play much because he has a bad tendency to try to do too much and make boneheaded plays. He's a better shooter than Dorsey is though, so they have a shooter in that way if they need it.

They could also select Georgios Tsalmbouris to the team if they wanted a stretch the floor big man at the 4 position. Tsalbouris is 7-2 and he's quite a good long distance shooter. I just don't think he would get much playing time though, because the 3 bigs Papagiannis. Kostas A., and Kavvadas should man the 5 spot. So it's not like Tsalbouris would play much at 4, backing up Giannis. Unless Giannis played at th3 5 as you say, but I don't see it.

They already tried playing Giannnis at the 5 in two different summers. It didn't work at all. He's not big enough or heavy enough to guard the real centers. Most European teams have 1-2 huge 7 feet 280 type guys and they would just throw Giannis around like a rag doll under the rim. Remember it's not the NBA, where you can't physically impose on Giannis, because the refs will call a foul. In FIBA they almost always let those big guys band and be physical, and that's a 30-50 pound weight difference for Giannis against a lot of those bigs.

That is unless if FIBA started reffing Giannis like they reffed Pau Gasol. Defenders couldn't touch Pau at all in FIBA, like Spain owned the refs in almost every game. It was weird. But normally they let the bigs be physical and that certainly was how it was before when they tried to use Giannis at the 5. He was giving up way too much rebounds and points around the basket.

But yeah, they could probably use Giannis at the 5, in certain match ups. But it's unlikely to work against any true bigs. Just think how in FIBA, the big man can just stand in the lane. Imagine Giannis trying to deal with Gobert or Boban under the basket with FIBA rules, pnjysicality and reffing.

They also let bigs play solid defense so that'll help Gianni play more physical on D around the rim.

[CharityStripe34]

And Gianni has crushed Gobert multiple times (who's allowed to play against him, I've seen the games).

[Mirotic12]

Who exactly would rag doll Giannis

Greece tried using him at center already in two previous summers. In the prep games they scrapped it. Because the other team's centers were abusing him on defense and rebounding around the basket. I mean seriously, it's not the NBA. They don't protect players, by keeping dinosaur bigs from throwing their weight around, like they do in the NBA. That's some 275 pound to 300 pounds bigs out there. Giannis was outsized by like 20 plus kilos. Trust me, it didn't work for very long on defense.

And Gianni has crushed Gobert multiple times (who's allowed to play against him, I've seen the games).

I'm talking about defending and boarding right at the rim. As in Giannis trying to defend them right at the basket. With FIBA rules, he's banging against much bigger guys either in height, or weight, or both. It doesn't even have to be Gobert. He's just an example for an NBA forum. He was having problems with Georgia's big men around the basket, for example. Same with Serbia, same with Brazil, etc.

[CharityStripe34]

Yeah there are some heavy-set slugs in the Eurobasket.

[Mirotic12]

Yeah there are some heavy-set slugs in the Eurobasket.

Yep. Which is better suited to the rules and reffing. Mostly half court basketball, you can stand in the lane, the refs let bigs be physical on defense, and the defenders have the natural space around them, unlike in the NBA. In other words, you can't do offensive fouls in FIBA, like you can in the NBA.

Under NBA rules, it would probably work well to use Giannis at 5 for Greece. But it's so much different playing with the FIBA style. Greece is the same way. All those years they had a dinosaur like Bourousis, and now they have the gigantic Papagiannis (he's like 7-3), and Kavvadas, who is like a freak of nature physically (he's like muscle bound 130+ kilos probably).

It's just so much different than the NBA, where guys like Lopez or Boban are hard to even have on the floor.

[UcanUwill]

Yeah there are some heavy-set slugs in the Eurobasket.

Yep. Which is better suited to the rules and reffing. Mostly half court basketball, you can stand in the lane, the refs let bigs be physical on defense, and the defenders have the natural space around them, unlike in the NBA. In other words, you can't do offensive fouls in FIBA, like you can in the NBA.

Under NBA rules, it would probably work well to use Giannis at 5 for Greece. But it's so much different playing with the FIBA style. Greece is the same way. All those years they had a dinosaur like Bourousis, and now they have the gigantic Papagiannis (he's like 7-3), and Kavvadas, who is like a freak of nature physically (he's like muscle bound 130+ kilos probably).

It's just so much different than the NBA, where guys like Lopez or Boban are hard to even have on the floor.

The main reason why these type of bigs barely play in the NBA is because NBA guards are much better than average guard in FIBA or Euroleague event, and these guards just pour points through those guys. NBA would love to have Boban on the court if he wasnt so exploitable on defense.

[CharityStripe34]

Yeah there are some heavy-set slugs in the Eurobasket.

Yep. Which is better suited to the rules and reffing. Mostly half court basketball, you can stand in the lane, the refs let bigs be physical on defense, and the defenders have the natural space around them, unlike in the NBA. In other words, you can't do offensive fouls in FIBA, like you can in the NBA.

Under NBA rules, it would probably work well to use Giannis at 5 for Greece. But it's so much different playing with the FIBA style. Greece is the same way. All those years they had a dinosaur like Bourousis, and now they have the gigantic Papagiannis (he's like 7-3), and Kavvadas, who is like a freak of nature physically (he's like muscle bound 130+ kilos probably).

It's just so much different than the NBA, where guys like Lopez or Boban are hard to even have on the floor.

By the same token, having Gianni play much more physically on defense helps tremendously too as the kid is super-strong and if he's allowed to hand-check he can pick some people's pockets.

I would actually like to see Gianni expound on his floater/push-shot that he brought out in the ECF. As well as his baby-hook and 12-15ft mid range in the Eurobasket. Would Itoudis use a 4/5 pick-and-roll to get him switched onto one of these plodding centers out on the wing?

[Mirotic12]

The main reason why these type of bigs barely play in the NBA is because NBA guards are much better than average guard in FIBA or Euroleague event, and these guards just pour points through those guys. NBA would love to have Boban on the court if he wasnt so exploitable on defense.

And again, the rules and reffing. We see almost all of Team USA's guards, if not in fact all of them, be much less effective under FIBA rules, with many of them even mightily struggling. No matter what they look like in the NBA, they become very normal under FIBA rules.

I would actually like to see Gianni expound on his floater/push-shot that he brought out in the ECF. As well as his baby-hook and 12-15ft mid range in the Eurobasket. Would Itoudis use a 4/5 pick-and-roll to get him switched onto one of these plodding centers out on the wing?

Maybe, but against most of the good FIBA teams, the pick and roll isn't that effective unless it is very high. It would actually probably be more effective to use Giannis as the passer, and have Greece's good shooters play off him. All the recent coaches except Pitino wanted Calathes as the main creator and always had him playing with Giannis. Last summer, Pitino said before Spanouilis got injured in the prep stage, that the plan was to use him as the main creator and play him with Giannis (if they made the Olympics). And not to use Calathes in the lineups with Giannis. So Pitino seemed to grasp playing them together is dumb, since that's 3 of the 5 players (the center also) in the lineup that can't spread the floor, which is disaster level in FIBA play.

The previous coaches couldn't even grasp that. So hopefully Itoudis comes up with a better spacing line up. But Itoudis and Calathes have a long relationship and are good friends, so maybe he will play Calathes 30 minutes with Giannis because of that.

[UcanUwill]

France window squad looks like obvious FIBA window team, almost non of the big guns, outside of Pourier and Okobo who I wthink would fairy easiliy would make actual tournament team. But look at Slovenian team, this has to be be the strongest FIBA window roster in the world, without a doubt.

[UcanUwill]

Saw Latvia - Lithuania game yesterday, and my god is Davis Bertans not very good. Probably THE worst contract in the NBA, makes more money than entire opponent and his own team combined, and still sucks even in that setting, his defense is terrible and he cant do anything outside jacking 3s. A very poor man's Mirza Teletovic at this point, I used to fear Mirza, I dont fear Davis at all.

[UcanUwill]

Jumped the gun on Slovenian team. Canadian lineup is lit