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Return to Sender: The Mark Williams Thread

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Re: Welcome To Charlotte: Mark Williams 

Post#101 » by wilson115 » Mon Jun 27, 2022 1:30 am

Surprising seeing the narrative Steve won't play Mark/Kai because they aren't traditional post-up big men. I recall things differently.

2013-14:
Al Jefferson: 35 minutes per game, 73 games started -- Al's first year, back when he put up 20-10 per and made 3rd team All-NBA.

2014-15:
30.6 mpg, 61 starts -- Had his season derailed by injuries and the Lance Stephenson show, was still good for 16.6 ppg.

2015-16:
Al Jefferson: 23.3 mpg, 18 starts
Cody Zeller: 24.3 mpg, 60 starts -- Big Al down to 12 ppg, traded in the offseason with the team finding a new starting center.

DECEMBER 5, 2016

Zeller is averaging five screen assists per game, the third best mark in the NBA this season. He's doing so despite averaging just 25 minutes, 10 less than Washington Wizards center Marcin Gortat, whose 6.4 screen assists per game lead the league.

Hornets head coach Steve Clifford has seen the entirety of Zeller's evolution since he assumed his perch in 2013. Clifford, an NBA lifer, had previously spent five seasons as an assistant coach with the Magic, where he had helped build an offense around Dwight Howard's prowess as the big man in the pick-and-roll.

The results speak for themselves. Zeller is now more involved in the Hornets offense than ever before. He's averaging a career high 10.5 points per game on a blistering 59.1 percent from the field, with many of those looks coming as the roll man following a screen.

But the most telling stats are how much more potent the Hornets have been with Zeller on the floor: They're outscoring opponents by 13.1 points per 100 possessions with him in the game and are 18.6 points per 100 possessions when he plays versus when he sits, both team highs, per Basketball-Reference.com.

https://bleacherreport.com/articles/2679310-the-art-of-the-pick-the-nbas-most-popular-play-requires-an-unsung-hero

Unfortunately this was shortly before injuries hit and the narrative became Zeller's "inability to stay healthy" to go with the Hornets' inability to win without him. I distinctly recall the reddit boards hailing Tyler Hansbrough as a franchise savior, the thinking being he could replicate Cody's PnR prowess whenever Cody inevitably lost time to injuries. Only Tyler didn't get much of a chance to prove it his one season with the team, also his last in the league.

Still on-tangent, the other "traditional" big man often mentioned in the same breath as Steve:

Vucevic is now a mismatch on offense versus almost every center in the league, as many are hesitant to defend in the midrange and behind the three-point line.

This season the Magic continued to craft a defensive strategy to complement Vucevic’s best traits: his footwork and his basketball IQ. It helps when you have defensive genius like coach Steve Clifford at the helm and when healthy, Jonathan Isaac helps cover up many of his faults.

What Vucevic brings to the floor on offense is most important, as the Magic already showed they can be one of the best defensive teams in the league. Pairing an uptempo, modern offense with their already stout defense is the number one goal going into next season.

There is nothing complex about his best plays. He simply sets a strong screen — his 5.8 screen assists per 75 possessions ranks him in the 94th percentile in the league, according to Basketball Index — and goes to the open space.

https://orlandomagicdaily.com/2020/09/27/2020-orlando-magic-player-evaluations-nikola-vucevics-game-continues-to-evolve/

Oversimplifying things but basically Vuc is super-sized Cody Zeller with a jump shot. To the point, for most of his coaching career the signature Steve Clifford big man has been a mobile big useful in the PnR and only briefly a traditional low-post bruiser.

To the point, asking Mark Williams and Kai Jones to move their feet, set picks on the perimeter, and catch lobs at the rim should be within their abilities a lot more than seeing them become back-to-the-basket maestros. Under Steve, Cody Zeller became the team's starting center his third year in the league. Physically Cody has nothing on this crop of young bigs, so what's holding them back....
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Re: Welcome To Charlotte: Mark Williams 

Post#102 » by CuseMayne » Mon Jun 27, 2022 2:22 am

LofJ wrote:
BigSlam wrote:I actually think that Kai and Mark compliment each other really well as a starting 4 and 5.


Same here, Mark Williams as the rim protecting defensive captain and Kai as the athletic help defender roaming the court and creating havoc.


a la JJJ in Memphis...? That's worked out pretty well for the Grizz.
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Re: Welcome To Charlotte: Mark Williams 

Post#103 » by JDR720 » Mon Jun 27, 2022 2:43 am

Plumlee is going to be one of Cliffs favorites. He is basically a more skilled version of Cody/McBob.

I think that's the main reason why Williams probably isn't going to play much. Maybe he'll get 15mpg as a backup.

Cliff likes post scoring centers (Al, Vuc) or PnR screeners/passers (Cody/McBob). Williams is closer to Bismack than those guys. Hopefully Williams being able to catch a ball doesn't result in being benched like Biz always was.
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Re: Welcome To Charlotte: Mark Williams 

Post#104 » by Diop » Mon Jun 27, 2022 2:45 am

yeah if Plumlee is still here, its position to lose. Clifford will trust his veteran first, which isn't wrong, the rookie has to prove himself and earn it the hard way
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Re: Welcome To Charlotte: Mark Williams 

Post#105 » by BatumtheGlue » Mon Jun 27, 2022 3:07 am

JDR720 wrote:Plumlee is going to be one of Cliffs favorites. He is basically a more skilled version of Cody/McBob.

I think that's the main reason why Williams probably isn't going to play much. Maybe he'll get 15mpg as a backup.

Cliff likes post scoring centers (Al, Vuc) or PnR screeners/passers (Cody/McBob). Williams is closer to Bismack than those guys. Hopefully Williams being able to catch a ball doesn't result in being benched like Biz always was.

It's hard for me to not agree with it. I will be so happy if he gives Williams 20mpg as a rookie.
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Re: Welcome To Charlotte: Mark Williams 

Post#106 » by yosemiteben » Mon Jun 27, 2022 3:14 am

I mean it's kinda hard to say what Cliff prefers, he's never really had much of a choice. That's evidenced by the fact that McRoberts and Big Al were on the same roster and started next to each other, even though they were both listed by JDR as a different sort of preference.

That's kinda why I'm cautiously optimistic about him, he knows how to maximize a roster and is generally pretty good at building a scheme that fits his pieces.
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Re: Welcome To Charlotte: Mark Williams 

Post#107 » by KingCat » Mon Jun 27, 2022 7:45 am

JDR720 wrote:Williams is a lob-catcher and PJ is a 3&D player. I think they do.

I'd like a supersized lineup.

Melo
Miles
PJ
Kai
Williams


Feels like there aren't enough ball handlers in this lineup unless Kai legitimately turns into KD or Giannis.
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Re: Welcome To Charlotte: Mark Williams 

Post#108 » by wilson115 » Mon Jun 27, 2022 10:48 pm

JDR720 wrote:Plumlee is going to be one of Cliffs favorites. He is basically a more skilled version of Cody/McBob.

I think that's the main reason why Williams probably isn't going to play much. Maybe he'll get 15mpg as a backup.

Cliff likes post scoring centers (Al, Vuc) or PnR screeners/passers (Cody/McBob). Williams is closer to Bismack than those guys. Hopefully Williams being able to catch a ball doesn't result in being benched like Biz always was.

Vuc was mostly a post scorer before Steve came along and turned him into a PnR enabler.

Vucevic’s style of play is the matte to other players’ chrome. His game is slow, prodding, and methodical, a blend of old-school post moves and new-age spacing unlocked with Clifford’s guidance. The former Hornets head coach has turned Vucevic into more of a playmaker (his usage is a career-high 26.9 percent). Clifford has positioned Vucevic at the top of the floor not just to take 3s when open, but, more importantly, to screen and roll, screen and pop, and pass.

https://www.theringer.com/nba/2018/11/28/18116202/nikola-vucevic-orlando-magic-improvement

“I told him today in front of the team, I like last night,” Clifford said. “I like eight, nine threes a game. If you look in the bubble, one of the reasons he played so well, he’s inside and outside. So last night, he had three paint catches of which I think we scored six points on, or maybe even seven. Then I believe he shot eight threes. I think that’s a great blend for him.”

https://www.nba.com/magic/news/could-nikola-vucevic-do-something-no-nba-center-has-ever-done-20201218

Cody Zeller played 17 mpg starting a total of 3 games as a rookie, so Mark coming off the bench to start his career wouldn't mean Steve's neglecting his development. It's actually a plus Mark has a skilled PnR guy like contract-year Plumlee to help his transition--just like Cody learned from watching McBob the Point Forward--since Mark right now's strictly a PnR guy himself thanks to Coach K.



Mark developing passing skills like Vuc under Steve may or not be a reach, but there's bigs like Gobert who still manage to be elite in the PnR despite being terrible ball handlers.
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Re: Welcome To Charlotte: Mark Williams 

Post#109 » by LofJ » Mon Jun 27, 2022 11:11 pm

The thing that really stands out to me (besides how huge he is) is that he has fantastic hands. It doesn't matter how off target the pass is, he still catches it and immediately goes up to score. He is not Bismack, not in the slightest.
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Re: Welcome To Charlotte: Mark Williams 

Post#110 » by wilson115 » Mon Jun 27, 2022 11:29 pm

Also great at tipping contested rebounds to himself or toward teammates. Where he needs to improve is hanging on to the ball when a defender or two's whacking away, specially on the perimeter. Could be down to awareness, so correctable. Maybe.
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Re: Welcome To Charlotte: Mark Williams 

Post#111 » by CuseMayne » Mon Jun 27, 2022 11:41 pm

LofJ wrote:The thing that really stands out to me (besides how huge he is) is that he has fantastic hands. It doesn't matter how off target the pass is, he still catches it and immediately goes up to score. He is not Bismack, not in the slightest.


Yessir. That's what has popped out to me as well. Very promising, and is potentially an awesome running mate with Melo. So important to have decent hands as a 5, and he snatches passes consistently and goes up really quickly.
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Re: Welcome To Charlotte: Mark Williams 

Post#112 » by HornetJail » Tue Jun 28, 2022 12:25 am

I still have absolutely no way of explaining how he dropped to #15. I want to know what negatives I'm missing about him, because I still don't understand why someone with his physical abilities that doesn't completely suck at basketball, isn't an immediate top 10 pick.
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Re: Welcome To Charlotte: Mark Williams 

Post#113 » by JDR720 » Tue Jun 28, 2022 12:26 am

I think it's a combination of not having the upside of the top 4 guys and the rest already having centers.
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Re: Welcome To Charlotte: Mark Williams 

Post#114 » by JDR720 » Tue Jun 28, 2022 12:32 am

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Re: Welcome To Charlotte: Mark Williams 

Post#115 » by Liver_Pooty » Tue Jun 28, 2022 12:45 am

KEMBAtheMETEOR wrote:I still have absolutely no way of explaining how he dropped to #15. I want to know what negatives I'm missing about him, because I still don't understand why someone with his physical abilities that doesn't completely suck at basketball, isn't an immediate top 10 pick.


A league wide assumption that centers like him and Gobert get played off the court in the playoffs.
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Re: Welcome To Charlotte: Mark Williams 

Post#116 » by JMAC3 » Tue Jun 28, 2022 2:12 am

Gobert has a career average of 12.5/11.7
Capela has a career average of 12.5/10.7
J. Allen has a career average of 11.6/8.7
R. Williams has a career average of 7.2/6.6

Even though all these guys are solid rim protectors and good on glass, hard to get gassed up for a prospect who is lucky to average 15 ppg in his career season. That is why I think Mark Williams went 15th.

He isn't a shooter, hasn't shown much as a passer and he is not an Embiid, Towns or Ayton mix of size/athleticism.

If Mark can turn into the 13 ppg, 10 board, 2.5 bpg center in 28 mpg I will pretty happy, however not sure he is ever the stalwart of a team like a star wing player has which is why Dieng, Davis, Daniels and Sharpe type guys all went ahead of him.

Don't think I am tearing down the pick, just being a realist why we were able to nab him so late.
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Re: Welcome To Charlotte: Mark Williams 

Post#117 » by Diop » Tue Jun 28, 2022 3:15 am

when we drafted him, the espn clip said he has potential as a plus passer, so hopefully thats true.

i was checking the below scout video, he's going to get smashed in the pick n roll for a bit.
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Re: Welcome To Charlotte: Mark Williams 

Post#118 » by Liver_Pooty » Tue Jun 28, 2022 3:19 am

We turned Devonte into him. Seems like a win already.
Balllin wrote:Zion Williamson is 6-5, with a 6-10 wingspan. I see him as a slightly better Kenneth Faried.
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Re: Welcome To Charlotte: Mark Williams 

Post#119 » by Hornet Mania » Wed Jun 29, 2022 2:21 pm

KEMBAtheMETEOR wrote:I still have absolutely no way of explaining how he dropped to #15. I want to know what negatives I'm missing about him, because I still don't understand why someone with his physical abilities that doesn't completely suck at basketball, isn't an immediate top 10 pick.


Unless you've been labeled a 'Unicorn' by draftniks nobody wants a big in the lotto. It's understandable to an extent but imo the pendulum has swung too far and we're still in the correction phase.

Teams can play bigs off the floor, but a rock-solid C prospect should still go ahead of late-lotto guards who project as sparkplug bench scorers. It was disgraceful how a physical freak like Jarret Allen could fall through the cracks like he did a few years ago. Teams have wised up a bit already because of late-round steals like Allen and Gobert, I'd bet Williams would get drafted even lower five years ago.
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Re: Welcome To Charlotte: Mark Williams 

Post#120 » by LofJ » Sat Jul 2, 2022 8:21 pm

Read on Twitter


Big Mark is officially a Hornet!

**** Miles Bridges, we need to look forward to the future and that's all about LaMelo, PJ, Cody, Kai, Big Mark, Thor, and hopefully Bouknight.

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