Better Player Right Now: Stephen Curry or Jokic

[ropjhk]

If I have a team without much talent then it's Jokic easily as he's the better floor raiser and could drag virtually any team to the playoffs (while Curry doesn't have the physical or mental makeup to do so)...

Didn't Curry carry the Warriors just last season to the play-in or am I dreaming?

Dreaming of a world where the play-in is considered to be the playoffs?

[moderndarwin]

Curry by a large margin.

The dubs won by exposing Joker over and over and over again on defense. He gets abused on that side. Doesn’t make any difference who else they got out there they can’t hide that. And when the team exposing him has a Steph Curry it’s like Thanos level inevitably that they’ll win.

[Big J]

It's silly that Joker would be considered better after the postseason that Curry just had unless we are just talking who is the better regular season player.

[Hobo4President]

Swap teams and Warriors don't win a title with Jokic instead of Curry. End of story.

I think they do

[DroseReturnChi]

Curry=4 championships
Jokic=0 championships

And the answer is Curry so that is not even a question

Sorry but doesnt work like that. Jokic isnt even same age.

[Pennebaker]

I'm taking Curry.

Jokic is one of those guys that is going to struggle to win a championship.

He's not physically imposing and he lacks intensity so he's not going to be able to win by the force of his own will like so many other stars before him.

Curry wasn't physically imposing either but he could bury you under threes.

I'm not sure Jokic can bury any team with any part of his game.

[BigGargamel]

RIGHT NOW? Like right this second? Neither. Well..Jokic could be playing some pickup ball in his driveway, not sure what time it is in Serbia. It's almost 10 in California so Steph is probably hanging out watching TV or something.

[Impuniti]

and i would argue the nuggets dont even make the playoffs with curry instead of joker

You can argue it but you'd be arguing against a guy who literally took a last placed team to the best improved record of such a team who was not joined by another star.

highest payroll in the nba, curry didnt do it alone

That's a completely pointless statement. It's a team game, nobody can win championships on their own. Or are we jumping into the Warriors are stacked storyline again?

[DroseReturnChi]

RIGHT NOW? Like right this second? Neither. Well..Jokic could be playing some pickup ball in his driveway, not sure what time it is in Serbia. It's almost 10 in California so Steph is probably hanging out watching TV or something.

he literally plays golfs everyday and probably parties if you didnt know. and notorious for going mia who knows he could be doing dumb ****. jokic is born to play basketball while the other is solely for the money and fame.

[NO-KG-AI]

I'd still be afraid to take Jokic over Curry purely for like one series or a playoff run on a top team, but if I need someone to power my team through a season or carry a injured or weaker squad, it's comfortably Jokic IMO. Jokic has to show he can do what Curry can do on a top end contender when the chips are down. I'd think he can, but his story is still incomplete.

[runtmc]

Im as big of a Steph fan as there is, and I still feel like he is one of the most under-appreciated players of all-time -- I personally have him 5th or 6th all-time, and I think his peak is arguably as good as any player's peak in history. All that said, even though what Steph accomplished this year is nothing short of legendary status, carrying a team on his back at age 34 to a dominant playoffs/finals, getting better and better as the playoffs went on to eventually logging one of the all time great Finals performances -- all that said, if we're talking about who is better today? It's Jokic.

The guy is putting up all-time historically great seasons. He's got 2 of the top 20 all-time WS/48 seasons the last 2 years, this season he put up the single best season for PER in NBA history -- ever -- beating out Wilt's legendary 50ppg season, which had been the single best PER season in NBA history for 60 years.

Jokic put up 27p/14r/8a/1.5s/1b on crazy 66 TS%, with a 32.8 PER. Those stats are just insane, there's never been anyone like him. And oh by the way, it's not like he dropped off in the playoffs, despite playing against GS in the first round (who had one of the best -- if not the best -- defenses in the NBA this season), avging 31p/13r/6a/1.5s/1b on 64% TS and 33.1 PER. Basically identical to his RS numbers, which was arguably the greatest RS of all time. That kind of consistency from the RS to the playoffs is pretty nuts, honestly.

Also, I don't see why you have to tear down Steph to give Jokic his flowers -- Steph was unreal, had a monster season, won a chip, finals MVP, moved himself into top-10 all time status in a lot of people's mind, etc. But it isn't a knock to say he didn't have the best season in NBA history, or arguably the best season in history. Jokic did. Dude is just on a different planet right now.

Let me put it this way, Curry was 3rd in ESPN's RPM this season, behind Jokic/Embiid. But the difference between Jokic and Curry was about the same as the difference between Curry and Trae Young or Curry and Chris Paul. That's how big the gap is.

[ChartFiction]

Easily Curry. The only player I'm entertaining over Curry is Giannis and I'm still taking Curry.

Give me Curry and I can have a championship team within two years. Winning with Curry is easy mode.

[ChartFiction]

Let me put it this way, Curry was 3rd in ESPN's RPM this season, behind Jokic/Embiid. But the difference between Jokic and Curry was about the same as the difference between Curry and Trae Young or Curry and Chris Paul. That's how big the gap is.

jokic single season rpm is inflated by outlier drpm from having no big behind him most of the season. it'll fall off immediately next season and you will probably think he fell off if this is your understanding of players.

[lars_rosenberg]

If I have a team without much talent then it's Jokic easily as he's the better floor raiser and could drag virtually any team to the playoffs (while Curry doesn't have the physical or mental makeup to do so)...

Didn't Curry carry the Warriors just last season to the play-in or am I dreaming?

"Carrying to the play in" lol

Jokic carried his team to almost 50 wins without his 2nd and 3rd best players all year. Curry still had his 3rd best player and still couldn't achieve what Jokic did lol.

Jokic didn't have to carry Oubre, Wanamaker and clueless rookie Wiseman. While the Nuggets weren't a great team this season, at least they didn't have players actively hurting the team like last year Warriors had.
Removing those guys and replacing them with decent players like Otto Porter and Gary Payton II turned the Warriors into champions.
And yes, they got Klay back, but you can't deny Klay's performance was extremely underwhelming both during the regular season and the playoffs.

[runtmc]

Let me put it this way, Curry was 3rd in ESPN's RPM this season, behind Jokic/Embiid. But the difference between Jokic and Curry was about the same as the difference between Curry and Trae Young or Curry and Chris Paul. That's how big the gap is.

jokic single season rpm is inflated by outlier drpm from having no big behind him most of the season. it'll fall off immediately next season and you will probably think he fell off if this is your understanding of players.

Okay, first of all, RPM adjusts for backup quality -- it isn't raw plus minus -- so no, that's not true. Second, his primary backups were Jeff Green and Demarcus Cousins, both of whom were solid -- it's not like they're G-league scrubs.

And last, "if this is your understanding of players"? You act like I based the entire post off of RPM and used that as my only justification for the entire post, which is nothing but a straw man.

Will his best-in-nba-history PER, top-20-in-all-of-NBA-history WS/48, nba-best VORP/BPM/WS all disappear too? You act like RPM is the only advanced metric that shows Jokic had a historic season. It was literally one of many metrics I could have picked to make a point about the gap between Jokic and the rest of the league this past season.

[dhsilv2]

I'm taking Curry.

Jokic is one of those guys that is going to struggle to win a championship.

He's not physically imposing and he lacks intensity so he's not going to be able to win by the force of his own will like so many other stars before him.

Curry wasn't physically imposing either but he could bury you under threes.

I'm not sure Jokic can bury any team with any part of his game.

What world are we living in? Jokic just dominated the warriors in this very post season! Scoring 31 a game at record level efficiency while dropping another 6 dimes and grabbing 13 boards a game....

[dhsilv2]

Let me put it this way, Curry was 3rd in ESPN's RPM this season, behind Jokic/Embiid. But the difference between Jokic and Curry was about the same as the difference between Curry and Trae Young or Curry and Chris Paul. That's how big the gap is.

jokic single season rpm is inflated by outlier drpm from having no big behind him most of the season. it'll fall off immediately next season and you will probably think he fell off if this is your understanding of players.

RPM is not impacted by DRPM. Nor is BPM impacted by DBPM. When RPM or BPM or nearly any other metric is broken into O and D the O and D metrics are less accurate and less valuable than the initial metric. You do NOT calculate ORPM and DRPM separately and then add them together to create RPM.

Please for the love of basketball never make another claim like this again!

[rocketsfan100]

Jokic. He is basically a 7 foot magic Johnson that can score from anyone on the floor. He maybe the best overall offensive player in the NBA

[ChartFiction]

Let me put it this way, Curry was 3rd in ESPN's RPM this season, behind Jokic/Embiid. But the difference between Jokic and Curry was about the same as the difference between Curry and Trae Young or Curry and Chris Paul. That's how big the gap is.

jokic single season rpm is inflated by outlier drpm from having no big behind him most of the season. it'll fall off immediately next season and you will probably think he fell off if this is your understanding of players.

RPM is not impacted by DRPM. Nor is BPM impacted by DBPM. When RPM or BPM or nearly any other metric is broken into O and D the O and D metrics are less accurate and less valuable than the initial metric. You do NOT calculate ORPM and DRPM separately and then add them together to create RPM.

Please for the love of basketball never make another claim like this again!

wrong. rpm splits possessions into defense and offense. any plus minus is inherently informed by offense and defense adj to make up net. its the difference of what they score and what you score and adjusted by your teammates performance without you. tracking poss allows us to see what contributed and jokic numbers dont line up with his teams perf or his career. it is inflated and will deflate next season.

https://thedatajocks.com/what-is-real-plus-minus/

"Real plus minus is essentially xRAPM with a more sophisticated prior and split into offensive and defensive components.

Real plus minus is split into two components: offensive RPM and defensive RPM. Offensive real plus minus is meant to measure how many more points your team will score per 100 possessions with you on the court versus a league-average player. Defensive RPM is how many fewer points your team allows on defense per 100 possessions with you on the court versus a league-average player. Real plus minus is then offensive and defensive plus minus added to one another."

Cousins traded for mid season and jeff green 6'8 sf at center. inflated impact for when he's out. Full year of cousins next season his adj impact numbers plummets back to his norm. Meanwhile Curry has shown consistently he can hit alltime numbers whenever he wants.

[WarriorGM]

jokic single season rpm is inflated by outlier drpm from having no big behind him most of the season. it'll fall off immediately next season and you will probably think he fell off if this is your understanding of players.

RPM is not impacted by DRPM. Nor is BPM impacted by DBPM. When RPM or BPM or nearly any other metric is broken into O and D the O and D metrics are less accurate and less valuable than the initial metric. You do NOT calculate ORPM and DRPM separately and then add them together to create RPM.

Please for the love of basketball never make another claim like this again!

wrong. rpm splits possessions into defense and offense. any plus minus is inherently informed by offense and defense adj to make up net. its the difference of what they score and what you score and adjusted by your teammates performance without you. tracking poss allows us to see what contributed and jokic numbers dont line up with his teams perf or his career. it is inflated and will deflate next season.

https://thedatajocks.com/what-is-real-plus-minus/

"Real plus minus is essentially xRAPM with a more sophisticated prior and split into offensive and defensive components.

Real plus minus is split into two components: offensive RPM and defensive RPM. Offensive real plus minus is meant to measure how many more points your team will score per 100 possessions with you on the court versus a league-average player. Defensive RPM is how many fewer points your team allows on defense per 100 possessions with you on the court versus a league-average player. Real plus minus is then offensive and defensive plus minus added to one another."

Cousins traded for mid season and jeff green 6'8 sf at center. inflated impact for when he's out. Full year of cousins next season his adj impact numbers plummets back to his norm. Meanwhile Curry has shown consistently he can hit alltime numbers whenever he wants.

Interesting. I've always found the offensive part of these metrics as surprisingly plausible but the defensive part as unreliable. Haven't bothered to get into the weeds though.