Better Player Right Now: Stephen Curry or Jokic

[WarriorGM]

and i would argue the nuggets dont even make the playoffs with curry instead of joker

You can argue it but you'd be arguing against a guy who literally took a last placed team to the best improved record of such a team who was not joined by another star.

I get why people would be suspicious of a guy with the word warriors in his name in this thread but it is true that the Warriors really did suffer as a franchise for a long time before Curry. A lot of credit to Curry for his work ethic and attitude that helped his entire team be better.

Suspicious of me? When I've been more accurate than 90% of the people around here? Be suspicious of the people who are perennially wrong.

[ChartFiction]

RPM is not impacted by DRPM. Nor is BPM impacted by DBPM. When RPM or BPM or nearly any other metric is broken into O and D the O and D metrics are less accurate and less valuable than the initial metric. You do NOT calculate ORPM and DRPM separately and then add them together to create RPM.

Please for the love of basketball never make another claim like this again!

wrong. rpm splits possessions into defense and offense. any plus minus is inherently informed by offense and defense adj to make up net. its the difference of what they score and what you score and adjusted by your teammates performance without you. tracking poss allows us to see what contributed and jokic numbers dont line up with his teams perf or his career. it is inflated and will deflate next season.

https://thedatajocks.com/what-is-real-plus-minus/

"Real plus minus is essentially xRAPM with a more sophisticated prior and split into offensive and defensive components.

Real plus minus is split into two components: offensive RPM and defensive RPM. Offensive real plus minus is meant to measure how many more points your team will score per 100 possessions with you on the court versus a league-average player. Defensive RPM is how many fewer points your team allows on defense per 100 possessions with you on the court versus a league-average player. Real plus minus is then offensive and defensive plus minus added to one another."

Cousins traded for mid season and jeff green 6'8 sf at center. inflated impact for when he's out. Full year of cousins next season his adj impact numbers plummets back to his norm. Meanwhile Curry has shown consistently he can hit alltime numbers whenever he wants.

Interesting. I've always found the offensive part of these metrics as surprisingly plausible but the defensive part as unreliable. Haven't bothered to get into the weeds though.

its more info about how perf was composed. all these numbers are adj relative to rotating lineups. seeing big diff between jokic in/out of lineup with an sf as his replacement c and cousins coming in mid season is not a real measure of impact of a player. which is why his impact numbers don't align with the tepid performance of denver. he falls off significantly to his usual numbers next season. he's a profilic stat stuffer though.

[JN61]

Didn't Curry carry the Warriors just last season to the play-in or am I dreaming?

And Jokic carried the Nuggets to...

Biggest difference was just games played, Jokic was healthier...if that's why you rank Jokic over Curry, that's fair. But that'd be the argument there.

Stop this nonsense. They missed roughly same amount of games % wise. In absolute sense Jokic missed 8 and Curry missed 9. Jokic still has far less healthier team overall and not like Warriors would have been much higher either. 4 more wins is a big deal especially when they lost 7 when curry missed the games and almost all of them were vs top 4 teams in the conferences and away games. Jokic been healthier Denver could've been 5th seed but nothing else. Warriors doesn't really rise ranks even if curry doesn't miss games.

You can admit it bud; Jokic carried his team far better and that's why he is MVP. You don't need buts every time when talking about Curry.

[JN61]

To me the best players in the league are as follows:
Giannis
Jokic
Doncic
Durant
Curry

Before the playoffs me and many others had Durant top2 but his weak playoffs dropped him outside of top 3. Most of us had Curry 7th or 8th in the league after James and maybe Embiid. His strong finals made him jump on the rankings which he deserves. He was still outplayed by his peers like Doncic for example in the playoffs.

[JN61]

Curry=4 championships
Jokic=0 championships

And the answer is Curry so that is not even a question

LeBron has 4 championships and more MVPs than Curry. Answer is LeBron by this absurd logic.

Stop bringing team awards as the only metric that matters in rankings of individual players.

[WarriorGM]

And Jokic carried the Nuggets to...

Biggest difference was just games played, Jokic was healthier...if that's why you rank Jokic over Curry, that's fair. But that'd be the argument there.

Stop this nonsense. They missed roughly same amount of games % wise. In absolute sense Jokic missed 8 and Curry missed 9. Jokic still has far less healthier team overall and not like Warriors would have been much higher either. 4 more wins is a big deal especially when they lost 7 when curry missed the games and almost all of them were vs top 4 teams in the conferences and away games. Jokic been healthier Denver could've been 5th seed but nothing else. Warriors doesn't really rise ranks even if curry doesn't miss games.

You can admit it bud; Jokic carried his team far better and that's why he is MVP. You don't need buts every time when talking about Curry.

Huh? Jokic played more games. What are you comparing? Jokic 2022 vs. Curry 2021?

[JN61]

I remember in 2017 right after LeBron eeked out that victory against the Warriors. People were proclaiming him the best player in the world.

Jump to now and people still insisting Jokic is the guy. Did Jokic dominate anything close to the way Steph did in 2016? Didn't Steph beat Jokic's Nuggets on the way to a title without any series going to 7 games?

If Jokic is the guy today. Curry was the guy in 2017.

It was clear LeBron was better than curry in 2017. Only absurd levels of fan bias would think otherwise. Only Durant was in the conversation with LeBron back in 2017. Curry has never been in the conversation as the best player in the league when LeBron was still in his prime.

[WarriorGM]

I remember in 2017 right after LeBron eeked out that victory against the Warriors. People were proclaiming him the best player in the world.

Jump to now and people still insisting Jokic is the guy. Did Jokic dominate anything close to the way Steph did in 2016? Didn't Steph beat Jokic's Nuggets on the way to a title without any series going to 7 games?

If Jokic is the guy today. Curry was the guy in 2017.

It was clear LeBron was better than curry in 2017. Only absurd levels of fan bias would think otherwise. Only Durant was in the conversation with LeBron back in 2017. Curry has never been in the conversation as the best player in the league when LeBron was still in his prime.

I wonder how many other best players had another player win a unanimous MVP in a year they were in their prime? More likely your best player wasn't the best player.

[michaelm]

To me the best players in the league are as follows:
Giannis
Jokic
Doncic
Durant
Curry

Before the playoffs me and many others had Durant top2 but his weak playoffs dropped him outside of top 3. Most of us had Curry 7th or 8th in the league after James and maybe Embiid. His strong finals made him jump on the rankings which he deserves. He was still outplayed by his peers like Doncic for example in the playoffs.

Is this because Doncic defended much better than him ?.

[michaelm]

I remember in 2017 right after LeBron eeked out that victory against the Warriors. People were proclaiming him the best player in the world.

Jump to now and people still insisting Jokic is the guy. Did Jokic dominate anything close to the way Steph did in 2016? Didn't Steph beat Jokic's Nuggets on the way to a title without any series going to 7 games?

If Jokic is the guy today. Curry was the guy in 2017.

It was clear LeBron was better than curry in 2017. Only absurd levels of fan bias would think otherwise. Only Durant was in the conversation with LeBron back in 2017. Curry has never been in the conversation as the best player in the league when LeBron was still in his prime.

Most on here would defer to your expertise in regard to absurd levels of fan bias.

[dautjazz]

i'll take the player that can lead me to a championship over the player who puts up cute numbers any day

So you're saying that Jokic has had a championship supporting cast? Come on dude, Curry couldn't even make the playoffs last season without Klay, but he still had Wiggins, Green, Poole, Oubre, etc. In other words, if Curry couldn't make the playoffs last with that roster, how can you expect Jokic to win the title without his best two teammates.

[JN61]

I remember in 2017 right after LeBron eeked out that victory against the Warriors. People were proclaiming him the best player in the world.

Jump to now and people still insisting Jokic is the guy. Did Jokic dominate anything close to the way Steph did in 2016? Didn't Steph beat Jokic's Nuggets on the way to a title without any series going to 7 games?

If Jokic is the guy today. Curry was the guy in 2017.

It was clear LeBron was better than curry in 2017. Only absurd levels of fan bias would think otherwise. Only Durant was in the conversation with LeBron back in 2017. Curry has never been in the conversation as the best player in the league when LeBron was still in his prime.

I wonder how many other best players had another player win a unanimous MVP in a year they were in their prime? More likely your best player wasn't the best player.

Using realgm analogy we saw LeBron sonning Curry in the very same year in the NBA finals like nobody has ever sonned another player before.

[MagicFan12345]

Curry=4 championships
Jokic=0 championships

And the answer is Curry so that is not even a question

LeBron has 4 championships and more MVPs than Curry. Answer is LeBron by this absurd logic.

Stop bringing team awards as the only metric that matters in rankings of individual players.

No and if you do not like it and then scroll by and do not reply

[iLLmatic860]

i'll take the player that can lead me to a championship over the player who puts up cute numbers any day

So you're saying that Jokic has had a championship supporting cast? Come on dude, Curry couldn't even make the playoffs last season without Klay, but he still had Wiggins, Green, Poole, Oubre, etc. In other words, if Curry couldn't make the playoffs last with that roster, how can you expect Jokic to win the title without his best two teammates.

Its not a knock against Jokic. Hes just no Curry

Are you implying Nuggets wouldve won it all if Murray and Mpj were healthy?

[dhsilv2]

jokic single season rpm is inflated by outlier drpm from having no big behind him most of the season. it'll fall off immediately next season and you will probably think he fell off if this is your understanding of players.

RPM is not impacted by DRPM. Nor is BPM impacted by DBPM. When RPM or BPM or nearly any other metric is broken into O and D the O and D metrics are less accurate and less valuable than the initial metric. You do NOT calculate ORPM and DRPM separately and then add them together to create RPM.

Please for the love of basketball never make another claim like this again!

wrong. rpm splits possessions into defense and offense. any plus minus is inherently informed by offense and defense adj to make up net. its the difference of what they score and what you score and adjusted by your teammates performance without you. tracking poss allows us to see what contributed and jokic numbers dont line up with his teams perf or his career. it is inflated and will deflate next season.

https://thedatajocks.com/what-is-real-plus-minus/

"Real plus minus is essentially xRAPM with a more sophisticated prior and split into offensive and defensive components.

Real plus minus is split into two components: offensive RPM and defensive RPM. Offensive real plus minus is meant to measure how many more points your team will score per 100 possessions with you on the court versus a league-average player. Defensive RPM is how many fewer points your team allows on defense per 100 possessions with you on the court versus a league-average player. Real plus minus is then offensive and defensive plus minus added to one another."

Cousins traded for mid season and jeff green 6'8 sf at center. inflated impact for when he's out. Full year of cousins next season his adj impact numbers plummets back to his norm. Meanwhile Curry has shown consistently he can hit alltime numbers whenever he wants.

The article you posted literally disagrees with you. That's why it uses the word "split" because it calculates RPM then splits it into O and D. Each time you split or get more granular, you get less accurate.

[dhsilv2]

And Jokic carried the Nuggets to...

Biggest difference was just games played, Jokic was healthier...if that's why you rank Jokic over Curry, that's fair. But that'd be the argument there.

Stop this nonsense. They missed roughly same amount of games % wise. In absolute sense Jokic missed 8 and Curry missed 9. Jokic still has far less healthier team overall and not like Warriors would have been much higher either. 4 more wins is a big deal especially when they lost 7 when curry missed the games and almost all of them were vs top 4 teams in the conferences and away games. Jokic been healthier Denver could've been 5th seed but nothing else. Warriors doesn't really rise ranks even if curry doesn't miss games.

You can admit it bud; Jokic carried his team far better and that's why he is MVP. You don't need buts every time when talking about Curry.

I sometimes can't help but wonder if you hate math or Curry more. And you need "buts" anytime you have an adult conversation, period. You can't discuss anything of meaning or value without buts.

[ChartFiction]

RPM is not impacted by DRPM. Nor is BPM impacted by DBPM. When RPM or BPM or nearly any other metric is broken into O and D the O and D metrics are less accurate and less valuable than the initial metric. You do NOT calculate ORPM and DRPM separately and then add them together to create RPM.

Please for the love of basketball never make another claim like this again!

wrong. rpm splits possessions into defense and offense. any plus minus is inherently informed by offense and defense adj to make up net. its the difference of what they score and what you score and adjusted by your teammates performance without you. tracking poss allows us to see what contributed and jokic numbers dont line up with his teams perf or his career. it is inflated and will deflate next season.

https://thedatajocks.com/what-is-real-plus-minus/

"Real plus minus is essentially xRAPM with a more sophisticated prior and split into offensive and defensive components.

Real plus minus is split into two components: offensive RPM and defensive RPM. Offensive real plus minus is meant to measure how many more points your team will score per 100 possessions with you on the court versus a league-average player. Defensive RPM is how many fewer points your team allows on defense per 100 possessions with you on the court versus a league-average player. Real plus minus is then offensive and defensive plus minus added to one another."

Cousins traded for mid season and jeff green 6'8 sf at center. inflated impact for when he's out. Full year of cousins next season his adj impact numbers plummets back to his norm. Meanwhile Curry has shown consistently he can hit alltime numbers whenever he wants.

The article you posted literally disagrees with you. That's why it uses the word "split" because it calculates RPM then splits it into O and D. Each time you split or get more granular, you get less accurate.

no what gets less accurate is the noise to determine if a player with a high drpm is actually a good defender or not. splitting gives insight and lets us know jokic's numbers are deviated from expectations by looking at other seasons and why. and context gives insight that it will deflate next year.

[dhsilv2]

wrong. rpm splits possessions into defense and offense. any plus minus is inherently informed by offense and defense adj to make up net. its the difference of what they score and what you score and adjusted by your teammates performance without you. tracking poss allows us to see what contributed and jokic numbers dont line up with his teams perf or his career. it is inflated and will deflate next season.

https://thedatajocks.com/what-is-real-plus-minus/

"Real plus minus is essentially xRAPM with a more sophisticated prior and split into offensive and defensive components.

Real plus minus is split into two components: offensive RPM and defensive RPM. Offensive real plus minus is meant to measure how many more points your team will score per 100 possessions with you on the court versus a league-average player. Defensive RPM is how many fewer points your team allows on defense per 100 possessions with you on the court versus a league-average player. Real plus minus is then offensive and defensive plus minus added to one another."

Cousins traded for mid season and jeff green 6'8 sf at center. inflated impact for when he's out. Full year of cousins next season his adj impact numbers plummets back to his norm. Meanwhile Curry has shown consistently he can hit alltime numbers whenever he wants.

The article you posted literally disagrees with you. That's why it uses the word "split" because it calculates RPM then splits it into O and D. Each time you split or get more granular, you get less accurate.

no what gets less accurate is the noise to determine if a player with a high drpm is actually a good defender or not. splitting gives insight and lets us know jokic's numbers are deviated from expectations by looking at other seasons and why. and context gives insight that it will deflate next year.

The error for O and D is larger than the error for RPM as a whole. It becomes less accurate as you break it down.

[dhsilv2]

wrong. rpm splits possessions into defense and offense. any plus minus is inherently informed by offense and defense adj to make up net. its the difference of what they score and what you score and adjusted by your teammates performance without you. tracking poss allows us to see what contributed and jokic numbers dont line up with his teams perf or his career. it is inflated and will deflate next season.

https://thedatajocks.com/what-is-real-plus-minus/

"Real plus minus is essentially xRAPM with a more sophisticated prior and split into offensive and defensive components.

Real plus minus is split into two components: offensive RPM and defensive RPM. Offensive real plus minus is meant to measure how many more points your team will score per 100 possessions with you on the court versus a league-average player. Defensive RPM is how many fewer points your team allows on defense per 100 possessions with you on the court versus a league-average player. Real plus minus is then offensive and defensive plus minus added to one another."

Cousins traded for mid season and jeff green 6'8 sf at center. inflated impact for when he's out. Full year of cousins next season his adj impact numbers plummets back to his norm. Meanwhile Curry has shown consistently he can hit alltime numbers whenever he wants.

The article you posted literally disagrees with you. That's why it uses the word "split" because it calculates RPM then splits it into O and D. Each time you split or get more granular, you get less accurate.

no what gets less accurate is the noise to determine if a player with a high drpm is actually a good defender or not. splitting gives insight and lets us know jokic's numbers are deviated from expectations by looking at other seasons and why. and context gives insight that it will deflate next year.

Let me give you another point of info.

LEBRON, RPM, EPM, and RAPTOR are all trying to do the same thing. Give us a 1 metric impact tool. They all breakdown offense and defense at the end of their calculations too. The metrics all universally agree Jokic is an outlier player. They don't agree on the split between offense and defense. The reason? The split is less accurate and shouldn't be stressed.

It's nice to have and I think the split on average are good and informative, but they absolutely are not without much bigger concerns and inconsistencies than the core metrics.

[The Rebel]

Didn't Curry carry the Warriors just last season to the play-in or am I dreaming?

"Carrying to the play in" lol

Jokic carried his team to almost 50 wins without his 2nd and 3rd best players all year. Curry still had his 3rd best player and still couldn't achieve what Jokic did lol.

Jokic didn't have to carry Oubre, Wanamaker and clueless rookie Wiseman. While the Nuggets weren't a great team this season, at least they didn't have players actively hurting the team like last year Warriors had.
Removing those guys and replacing them with decent players like Otto Porter and Gary Payton II turned the Warriors into champions.
And yes, they got Klay back, but you can't deny Klay's performance was extremely underwhelming both during the regular season and the playoffs.

You mean like Campazzo who was statistically the worst rotation player in the league last year? Maybe you missed the fact they were starting Austin Rivers some games, the same guy who got cut from a bad Knicks team and was sitting out until the Nuggets called. Maybe you forgot about Will Barton who was statistically in the bottom 5 starters in the league statistically?

Get real, the other guys on this Nuggets team were far worse than the team that Curry could not get in the playoffs just a year ago.