hardenASG13 wrote:Sgt Major wrote:Frozzy wrote:You do realize the Warriors offense moves the ball around a lot more than Denver does right? Of course Jokic is gonna put up some gaudy assist numbers when everything goes through him.
The real beatdown was Steph's Warriors gentleman sweeping the Nuggets
GS starting lineup - 4 recent All-Stars
DN starting linuep - 1 All-Star, 4 guys who will never be even close to an All-Star selection
Hear this all the time from Jokic fans on here (same ones that say he is a generational talent based on making a bubble wcf due to Murray averaging 26ppg and then getting rolled by LAL. Jokic has averaged over 20ppg only 3 times and is 27). Yet alot of these people, and people in general, say Westbrooks MVP when he averaged 31/10/10 was a farce because of inflated stats as the only option on his team. Russ is the best rebounding guard in the history of the league but people wont acknowledge it because the rebounds and assists were "stat padding" somehow (I could be wrong, but I think rebounds and assists are productive plays). Its just crazy how much this board props up Jokic because of his TS%. One could even say his assists are manufactured because they are nothing more than high post dribble handoffs that lead to jumpshots. Such a double standard for the Joker on here.
That is not why people say Westbrooks MVP/triple double years were a farce. It was a farce because, well, it was a farce. Let's be clear, Westbrook is a very good rebounding guard, but it's also clear that things were manipulated so that he could average a triple double, and his 10+ rpg are a sham (frankly so are his assists, but its easier to show his rebounding were a literal sham). First, lets start by saying defensive rebounds have been shown repeatedly to have little impact, particularly compared to offensive rebounding. Westbrook for his career has averaged 1.7 off rpg -- a good number for a guard by the way.
But when you look over his career rebounding numbers, something funny jumps out. His offensive rebounding has stayed *remarkably* consistent (between 1.2-1.9 per game every season but his rookie year), but his defensive rebounding shot up on two occasions -- first in 2015, coming off an injury the year before and missing the ASG for the first time in a few years. But most importantly, KD was out most of the year, and his defensive rebounding numbers, which had mostly been sitting around 3-4 per game for most of his career up to that point suddenly jump up to 5.5 a game, and Russ basically takes the opportunity to completely dominate/take over the team. Aside from his defensive rebounding numbers, his usage skyrockets to almost 40%, which is absurd, his assists go up, scoring, fga, etc, while his turnovers jump over 4 a game and his percentages plummet. The next year, KD comes back from injury, and most of his stats return to normal, but his defensive rebounding numbers stay inflated.
Then again, in 2017, after KD leaves, Russ fully takes over the team. His usage skyrockets to 42%, which again, is literally absurd, his assists go through the roof since the ball is always in his hands (his turnovers also jump to 5.5 a game -- which is unfathomable), scoring, fga, and of course, his defensive rebounds jump up now to 9 a game, even though again, his off rpg stay in that same consistent range.
And lets be clear, its not good basketball at all to have someone with a bad efficiency to have a usage rate of 42% and 5.5 turnovers a game, but hey, Russ got his stats. In fact, if you watch games from that era, its clear Russ forced OKC to let him do whatever he wanted so he could get his stats. Russ would be the only one under the basket getting defensive rebounds, while their centers would box out for him or start heading down the court, it was literally ridiculous.
To that point, Russ had a 29% defensive rebounding percentage in 2017 (the season after KD left that summer), while their actual center, Steven Adams, was at 15%. And it's not because Adams was a bad rebounder -- Adams the last 3 years for example has had defensive rebounding % of 20-24% and has lead the league in offensive rebounding once, but those 3 post-KD years while he played with Russ? 15.4/13.9/14.8 -- that's good rebounding guard territory. The season after Russ left OKC? Adams jumped from 14.8 to 24%.
Both times Russ's defensive rebounding numbers jumped were when KD was out for the year with an injury, and then again after KD left the team completely, and clearly Russ used those opportunities to cement his control over the team. Also, note that when Russ changed teams to Houston, which was a good team with a good coach, his defensive rebounding numbers dropped dramatically, then he gets moved to Washington, a bad team, they skyrocket again, then to the Lakers, and they plummet again. His defensive rebounds per game went from 6 per game before KD left, 9 while he was in control in OKC for 3 years, back to 6 his 1 year in Houston, up to 10 his one year in Washington, then back to 6 on the Lakers. If his rebounding was legit, it wouldn't ping pong between 6 and 9-10 year to year depending on whether he was on a team where he could do whatever he wanted or not. And again, the entire time, his offensive rebounding stayed consistent while his defensive rebounding jumped up and down wildly, which again wouldn't make any sense if his rebounding numbers were legit.
Basically, Russ wasn't adding value to the team by getting extra rebounds, he was just stealing rebounds from his centers. When you have a 40%+ usage rate and average 5+ turnovers a game, and literally nobody but you brings the ball up/starts the offense etc., avging 10+ assists isnt impressive. Those things are not him being a great player, it's him being selfish so he could inflate his stats. That's why everyone calls what Russ did a farce. When you warp the whole team around you getting stats, it's not winning basketball.
And just to be clear, that isn't what Jokic is doing. That's why Jokic gets props and Westbrook is looked at as a joke.
