Better Player Right Now: Stephen Curry or Jokic

[The Rebel]

I stopped paying attention to this thread after my initial post (basically saying pick your poison, they're 2 of the clear best players/leaders in the NBA), but please children. When will you learn? Curry just got done wiping the floor with the Nuggets coming directly off of a month long injury in just 30 mpg from the bench. Then he went on to do the same against elite D after elite D en route to his 4th title and a Finals MVP. Remember, this was the best player in the league during the last few months of 2021 and the first few months of this season before he had his shooting slump that took him out as the very clear front-runner for MVP up until late January. Yes, he is on that level lol.

Please, children? Really, incredibly condescending of you.

This is pretty simple. Let me break it down for you....

Look at their numbers the last two seasons, including the playoffs:

Would you take the 28/6/5 guy or the 27/12/8 guy?

I'd rather take the guy who puts up wins in the playoffs. Curry doesn't care about stats.

How many wins has Curry gotten without 1/3rd of his roster including both his costars? Oh that's right he can't win without a stacked roster.

[BoatsNZones]

The children are the ones that insist a guy did something all by himself in a team game, you must be a Lebron fan.

Clearly not insisting that what so ever. But he came off the bench and absolutely torched the life out of any outside chance Denver may have thought they had with him coming fresh off the injury to the playoffs. I even specifically remember the poll on this site being 40/60 that the Nuggets would win the series before G1. I obviously knew better than that due to their team dynamics (a more realistic representation would have been 10/90), but I'm used to seeing Curry and the Warriors underrated. I'm a Jokic fan as well. It's just absurd to pretend that he's on some other tier as a player than Curry. We just saw - again - what Curry does when he has a functioning supporting cast (even if they don't look very functional in the weeks he missed), and it's why he's in Top 10 All Time discussions despite having nowhere near the longevity of many in that realm.

Let's put it simply. If you have a take that thinks, "Oh! DRoseChi just made a great point concerning Curry!". You might want to reevaluate your position (and question where you went wrong to land in this predicament).

Let's put this simply, Jokic's team lost 5 rotation players to injury this year including his 2 costars Curry lost 1 costar and missed the playoffs, so yes I would say that Jokic is clearly on another tier if he can carry a worse roster to a considerably better record without 1/3rd of his roster available. To say he isn't says more about you than anything.

Lol. A great example of a word salad where you're manifesting your own narratives to players and producing hypotheticals off of said narrative. It's what Warriors fans are used to hearing ever since Curry became MVP. Meanwhile, in reality, Curry kept them on a 50 win pace and garnered major MVP conversation when he was playing with a fruitless cast. Now that he again had a solid enough one? Another championship. Moving on.

[The Rebel]

Clearly not insisting that what so ever. But he came off the bench and absolutely torched the life out of any outside chance Denver may have thought they had with him coming fresh off the injury to the playoffs. I even specifically remember the poll on this site being 40/60 that the Nuggets would win the series before G1. I obviously knew better than that due to their team dynamics (a more realistic representation would have been 10/90), but I'm used to seeing Curry and the Warriors underrated. I'm a Jokic fan as well. It's just absurd to pretend that he's on some other tier as a player than Curry. We just saw - again - what Curry does when he has a functioning supporting cast (even if they don't look very functional in the weeks he missed), and it's why he's in Top 10 All Time discussions despite having nowhere near the longevity of many in that realm.

Let's put it simply. If you have a take that thinks, "Oh! DRoseChi just made a great point concerning Curry!". You might want to reevaluate your position (and question where you went wrong to land in this predicament).

Let's put this simply, Jokic's team lost 5 rotation players to injury this year including his 2 costars Curry lost 1 costar and missed the playoffs, so yes I would say that Jokic is clearly on another tier if he can carry a worse roster to a considerably better record without 1/3rd of his roster available. To say he isn't says more about you than anything.

Lol. A great example of a word salad where you're manifesting your own narratives to players and producing hypotheticals off of said narrative. It's what Warriors fans are used to hearing ever since Curry became MVP. Meanwhile, in reality, Curry kept them on a 50 win pace and garnered major MVP conversation when he was playing with a fruitless cast. Now that he had a solid enough one? Another championship. Moving on.

A 50 win pace, I must not be able to find that in the record, or are you only talking about the games he played and didn't sit out avoiding good teams and getting his stats against the bad ones? Oh that's right you claim he doesn't care, so why did he avoid all the good defenders when Thompson was out? By the way Jokic had the Nuggets on a 50 win pace in the games he played, while missing 5 rotation players including his 2 costars, last time the Warriors were in that shape didn't they get the number 1 pick?

[NBA4Lyfe]

Please, children? Really, incredibly condescending of you.

This is pretty simple. Let me break it down for you....

Look at their numbers the last two seasons, including the playoffs:

Would you take the 28/6/5 guy or the 27/12/8 guy?

I'd rather take the guy who puts up wins in the playoffs. Curry doesn't care about stats.

How many wins has Curry gotten without 1/3rd of his roster including both his costars? Oh that's right he can't win without a stacked roster.

people always overlook this, curry needs a lot of expensive 2 way players around him to win games or else he'll flame out and break down

[WarriorGM]

Please, children? Really, incredibly condescending of you.

This is pretty simple. Let me break it down for you....

Look at their numbers the last two seasons, including the playoffs:

Would you take the 28/6/5 guy or the 27/12/8 guy?

I'd rather take the guy who puts up wins in the playoffs. Curry doesn't care about stats.

How many wins has Curry gotten without 1/3rd of his roster including both his costars? Oh that's right he can't win without a stacked roster.

This has got to be one of the most idiotic BS criticisms I've heard. It turns reality on its head.

There is no star player in the history of the NBA who has done more with less than Stephen Curry. Tell me when Jokic takes a sub-20-win team to a .500 record. Not a speculative worst team but an actual worst team in the league.

[BoatsNZones]

Let's put this simply, Jokic's team lost 5 rotation players to injury this year including his 2 costars Curry lost 1 costar and missed the playoffs, so yes I would say that Jokic is clearly on another tier if he can carry a worse roster to a considerably better record without 1/3rd of his roster available. To say he isn't says more about you than anything.

Lol. A great example of a word salad where you're manifesting your own narratives to players and producing hypotheticals off of said narrative. It's what Warriors fans are used to hearing ever since Curry became MVP. Meanwhile, in reality, Curry kept them on a 50 win pace and garnered major MVP conversation when he was playing with a fruitless cast. Now that he had a solid enough one? Another championship. Moving on.

A 50 win pace, I must not be able to find that in the record, or are you only talking about the games he played and didn't sit out avoiding good teams and getting his stats against the bad ones? Oh that's right you claim he doesn't care, so why did he avoid all the good defenders when Thompson was out?

Ah you're just an ignorant troll too, never mind. Have at it kids.

[The Rebel]

I'd rather take the guy who puts up wins in the playoffs. Curry doesn't care about stats.

How many wins has Curry gotten without 1/3rd of his roster including both his costars? Oh that's right he can't win without a stacked roster.

This has got to be one of the most idiotic BS criticisms I've heard. It turns reality on its head.

There is no star player in the history of the NBA who has done more with less than Stephen Curry. Tell me when Jokic takes a sub-20-win team to a .500 record. Not a speculative worst team but an actual worst team in the league.

You guys really are making yourselves look clueless. You do realize that the Nuggets had a far worse roster than Curry has ever played with this season alone? Look it up, they were 2-6 without Jokic their only 2 wins against tanking teams that threw the games. Advanced stats say the roster was a 14 win team without him, yet they made the playoffs, something Curry has never been able to do without his costars.

[The Rebel]

Lol. A great example of a word salad where you're manifesting your own narratives to players and producing hypotheticals off of said narrative. It's what Warriors fans are used to hearing ever since Curry became MVP. Meanwhile, in reality, Curry kept them on a 50 win pace and garnered major MVP conversation when he was playing with a fruitless cast. Now that he had a solid enough one? Another championship. Moving on.

A 50 win pace, I must not be able to find that in the record, or are you only talking about the games he played and didn't sit out avoiding good teams and getting his stats against the bad ones? Oh that's right you claim he doesn't care, so why did he avoid all the good defenders when Thompson was out?

Ah you're just an ignorant troll too, never mind. Have at it kids.

Facts make me an ignorant troll? Just because you know you lost the argument and have no idea what you are talking about doesn't mean you need to start with the name calling, we all know who you are.

[BoatsNZones]

A 50 win pace, I must not be able to find that in the record, or are you only talking about the games he played and didn't sit out avoiding good teams and getting his stats against the bad ones? Oh that's right you claim he doesn't care, so why did he avoid all the good defenders when Thompson was out?

Ah you're just an ignorant troll too, never mind. Have at it kids.

Facts make me an ignorant troll? Just because you know you lost the argument and have no idea what you are talking about doesn't mean you need to start with the name calling, we all know who you are.

Oh you're actually trying to act like you know what you're talking about or are being serious? Christ dude. He got hurt and missed a small amount of games mid-season where the Warriors looked like the team they were without him on the floor at that point (hint: horrendous. I think they won once while he was out). He came back after their >50 point loss to Toronto and led them on a 16-8 run to close the season while averaging 37/6/5 on a 70% TS (nearly 7 made 3's a game) and dragged them to the top 8 seed. As great and consistent as Jokic is, he does not have that supernova Curry level in him.

You clearly have no clue what you're talking about. So please stop responding to me. I'll see my way out and leave you to it.

[WarriorGM]

How many wins has Curry gotten without 1/3rd of his roster including both his costars? Oh that's right he can't win without a stacked roster.

This has got to be one of the most idiotic BS criticisms I've heard. It turns reality on its head.

There is no star player in the history of the NBA who has done more with less than Stephen Curry. Tell me when Jokic takes a sub-20-win team to a .500 record. Not a speculative worst team but an actual worst team in the league.

You guys really are making yourselves look clueless. You do realize that the Nuggets had a far worse roster than Curry has ever played with this season alone? Look it up, they were 2-6 without Jokic their only 2 wins against tanking teams that threw the games. Advanced stats say the roster was a 14 win team without him, yet they made the playoffs, something Curry has never been able to do without his costars.

Wow really? Last year the Warriors were 2-7 without Curry and lost a game by over 50 points without him. They actually finished with a 15-win record the year before no need for advanced stat projections. Sure the Nuggets team was bad but were they G-Leaguers that hadn't played on another team as an NBA player before? Wiseman and Poole at some point in their rookie season had reason to be called the worst player in the league with significant minutes and that was the same year or a year removed from playing with Curry. The Nuggets are full of NBA veterans by comparison.

[The Rebel]

Ah you're just an ignorant troll too, never mind. Have at it kids.

Facts make me an ignorant troll? Just because you know you lost the argument and have no idea what you are talking about doesn't mean you need to start with the name calling, we all know who you are.

Oh you're actually trying to act like you know what you're talking about or are being serious? Christ dude. He got hurt and missed a small amount of games mid-season where the Warriors looked like the team they were without him on the floor at that point (hint: horrendous. I think they won once). He came back after their >50 point loss to Toronto and led them on a 16-8 run to close the season while averaging 37/6/5 on a 70% TS (nearly 7 made 3's a game).

You clearly have no clue what you're talking about. So please stop responding to me. I'll see my way out and leave you to it.

Oh wow he led them on a 16-8 record after the tanking teams had given up and playoff teams were focused on getting healthy for the playoffs, wow. That is a 55 win pace, I can take out part of last season for JOkic and show a 65 win pace. The Nuggets were worse, it is easy to see statically and by looking at the records, and if you don't want responses than quit lying and ignoring what Jokic did because it was better than anything Curry has ever done without his costars. No amount of personal attacks or crying is going to change the facts.

[The Rebel]

This has got to be one of the most idiotic BS criticisms I've heard. It turns reality on its head.

There is no star player in the history of the NBA who has done more with less than Stephen Curry. Tell me when Jokic takes a sub-20-win team to a .500 record. Not a speculative worst team but an actual worst team in the league.

You guys really are making yourselves look clueless. You do realize that the Nuggets had a far worse roster than Curry has ever played with this season alone? Look it up, they were 2-6 without Jokic their only 2 wins against tanking teams that threw the games. Advanced stats say the roster was a 14 win team without him, yet they made the playoffs, something Curry has never been able to do without his costars.

Wow really? Last year the Warriors were 2-7 without Curry and lost a game by over 50 points without him. They actually finished with a 15-win record the year before no need for advanced stat projections. Sure the Nuggets team was bad but were they G-Leaguers that hadn't played on another team as an NBA player before? Wiseman and Poole at some point in their rookie season had reason to be called the worst player in the league with significant minutes and that was the same year or a year removed from playing with Curry.

Are you really trying to say that a team openly trying to lose games is the same as a team trying to win games but losing? Have you looked at the Nuggets record without Jokic this year? Gleague players, the Nuggets literally had guys starting who were out of the NBA and gleague prior to joining the Nuggets, they had statically the worst player in the league in their rotation, there is literally no argument, Curry's teammates were considerably better in 2020-2021 without him than the Nuggets were without Jokic this year. You can try to spin it however you want, but the stats show the truth, denying it says more about you guys than it does me, Curry, or Jokic.

[RTG HD]

Do you think Michael Jordan is better than jokic too?

Michael Jordan when he was winning championships, absolutely.

Shocking that 2004 Chauncey Billups would be better than the back-to-back MVP

The rare exception has already been talked about if you read the thread.

[WarriorGM]

You guys really are making yourselves look clueless. You do realize that the Nuggets had a far worse roster than Curry has ever played with this season alone? Look it up, they were 2-6 without Jokic their only 2 wins against tanking teams that threw the games. Advanced stats say the roster was a 14 win team without him, yet they made the playoffs, something Curry has never been able to do without his costars.

Wow really? Last year the Warriors were 2-7 without Curry and lost a game by over 50 points without him. They actually finished with a 15-win record the year before no need for advanced stat projections. Sure the Nuggets team was bad but were they G-Leaguers that hadn't played on another team as an NBA player before? Wiseman and Poole at some point in their rookie season had reason to be called the worst player in the league with significant minutes and that was the same year or a year removed from playing with Curry.

Are you really trying to say that a team openly trying to lose games is the same as a team trying to win games but losing? Have you looked at the Nuggets record without Jokic this year? Gleague players, the Nuggets literally had guys starting who were out of the NBA and gleague prior to joining the Nuggets, they had statically the worst player in the league in their rotation, there is literally no argument, Curry's teammates were considerably better in 2020-2021 without him than the Nuggets were without Jokic this year. You can try to spin it however you want, but the stats show the truth, denying it says more about you guys than it does me, Curry, or Jokic.

Who were the guys the Nuggets had on the floor this year in the playoff? Were there players worse than Bazemore, Toscano-Andersen, and Mychal Mulder in the top 8 of their rotation like the Warriors had in the play-ins last year?

The Nuggets had statistically the worst player last year? The Warriors had statistically the worst player of the last few years!

[SpreeS]

I want leave this here, in the best PG and the best C conversation

We have 3 the best centers in Jokic/Embiid/Gobert in 19/20/21/22 seasons. Their teams had 6 times top3 records in RS East/West conf in this period. All centers had crazy good total on/off netrtg in 4 years…but guess what? All these teams won once in second rnd and have no chance in conf finals. Centers on/off netrtg looks very bad, except Embiid, compared with RS. Teams with old Gasol/McGee/old Howard/Lopez/Looney won championships in this period. I dont know how many years you needs more to understand that big centers can’t win against top perimeter talents.

[LukaTheGOAT]

You guys really are making yourselves look clueless. You do realize that the Nuggets had a far worse roster than Curry has ever played with this season alone? Look it up, they were 2-6 without Jokic their only 2 wins against tanking teams that threw the games. Advanced stats say the roster was a 14 win team without him, yet they made the playoffs, something Curry has never been able to do without his costars.

Wow really? Last year the Warriors were 2-7 without Curry and lost a game by over 50 points without him. They actually finished with a 15-win record the year before no need for advanced stat projections. Sure the Nuggets team was bad but were they G-Leaguers that hadn't played on another team as an NBA player before? Wiseman and Poole at some point in their rookie season had reason to be called the worst player in the league with significant minutes and that was the same year or a year removed from playing with Curry.

Are you really trying to say that a team openly trying to lose games is the same as a team trying to win games but losing? Have you looked at the Nuggets record without Jokic this year? Gleague players, the Nuggets literally had guys starting who were out of the NBA and gleague prior to joining the Nuggets, they had statically the worst player in the league in their rotation, there is literally no argument, Curry's teammates were considerably better in 2020-2021 without him than the Nuggets were without Jokic this year. You can try to spin it however youooL want, but the stats show the truth, denying it says more about you guys than it does me, Curry, or Jokic.

Looking at their 2021 season impact numbers

If we are doing their current versions, I think I would side Jokic. In the end, the separator would be the PS, but based off what we have seen, the impact metrics favor Jokic.

Jokic
RAPTOR-9.6
Backpicks BPM-8.6
LEBRON-6.83

Steph
RAPTOR-6.8
Backpicks BPM-5.2
LEBRON-5.29

https://projects.fivethirtyeight.com/nba-player-ratings/

https://www.bball-index.com/2020-21-lebron-data/

https://apanalytics.shinyapps.io/DARKO/


Jokic's playmaking was so outlier, and his scoring has finally elevated to historically elite territory, that I feel like his season has been more special. He had a 3.2 PlayVal which is among the highest ever. That gives you an idea of just how special his creation is, and how weird it is that he is doing this as a big.

I don't see how it is outrageous to consider what Jokic did last year as more impressive than what Curry did, especially considering he played every game.

[MrBigShot]

Jokic this season was better than Steph at any point outside of the 2015-2016 regular season.

[Pelly24]

Jokic.

Curry is amazing and it's clear he was always behind his teammates' success. But this is also a perfect squad for him. He's got maybe the best defender in the league. multiple 18 ppg scorers, with two of them being solid to very good defenders, a sparkplug in Poole. They have a very deep squad.

[BoatsNZones]

Jokic this season was better than Steph at any point outside of the 2015-2016 regular season.

Is he though? With our current NBA advanced stats, he ranks as a top 3 peak in history. Are you comfortable with that assessment of Jokic? I've only really watched the game since the early 90's, and I'm a Jokic fan, but it's a very tough sell. Being an exploitable big defensively is a massive reason why it was so easy for the Warriors to beat up the Nuggets (it was a similar situation for Luka... but Jokic holds a more paramount position), and I don't think it's something that is properly allocated in the public stats right now.

His size/touch/playmaking is a virtual cheat code offensively, but I can't shake how easy it is for a team to exploit Jokic when he's gameplanned for in an actual playoff series. Teams try it with Curry all the time (mostly because they think 'hey, at least it might tire him out'), and it doesn't work. Never has. It's just so much easier to dominate weaknesses in a slow center, and it opens up SO much for the opposing offense.

Bear in mind, this is a player whose advanced stats are grossly exaggerated due to his defensive rebounding numbers on an efficient scorer/playmaker. Advanced stats would hold you to believe he is one of the premier defenders in the NBA. Clearly we have an issue there when that player is repeatedly/successfully targeted on that end in a round 1 bludgeoning in his peak MVP youth form. He's an OK defender at best, and a highly exploitable defender at worst. It's something the public advanced stats need to figure out.

[WarriorGM]

Curry in 20 years won’t be seen as a top 10-15 player ever, he has only 4 all nba first team selections and trails other guards from his era in vorp, bpm and win shares

In 20 years will the regular season and playoffs records still be standing? If so Curry will be remembered. It's going to become obvious how ridiculous it is to keep the guy behind the greatest wins records and the engine of the greatest team of all-time out of the top ten. I even think his reputation will only increase as the generation that grew up with him grows more influential and the generations that venerate the older players move away from the microphone. If Curry wins another ring, expect top five.