Orlando:small market

[magickingdom]

I’m just wondering if anyone knows how they determine market size? I mean Orlando is not a small town anymore by any means. So are we still considered a small market?
I know in the past it had to do with marketing and advertising. But with the internet and social media, that has all changed.
So my real question is: do you think we are still limited to our pick of free agents because we are considered a small market?

[thelead]

Big market = Amazing centralized night scene with a large concentration of female models.
Small market = Not as desirable of a place for young, single millionaire males to live.

I’m not sure how to quantify the above but Orlando still falls squarely in the ‘small market’ definition.

[OrlDave]

I always thought it was a TV market thing. Orlando keeps moving up the list and is at 18th now. Still slightly behind Miami, but we've been catching up. Feels like they only consider the top 5-7 "big market" teams though. NYC, LA, Chicago, Philly and Dallas for sure. Second-tier would be Washington DC, SF, Houston and Boston. Atlanta doesn't get much bump from being a top 10 market.

https://www.lyonspr.com/latest-nielsen-dma-rankings/

[VFX]

Big markets have more marketability opportunities for young star level players on a local and global level. Bigger markets are also on tv more often. This is diminishing somewhat now but it’s still true. For every 1 Giannis commercial I saw 10 Curry commercials in the finals, same for Lebron.

Young millionaires have more opportunities to be out among other wealthy celebrities if they live in NY or LA during the season. Living in Oklahoma City isn’t going to have the same vibe as Los Angeles. There are simply more options to spend time and money.

Fan bases are also larger because those cities are also larger. There are more international Lakers fans than any other fan base I’ve ever met. My friend from the UK is a Lakers die hard simply because that’s the only team they played on tv when he grew up.

Orlando is a small market because it’s closer to OKC than it is NY. Players taking an advantage of the taxes are going to Miami.

[Kent]

Big market = Amazing centralized night scene with a large concentration of female models.
Small market = Not as desirable of a place for young, single millionaire males to live.

I’m not sure how to quantify the above but Orlando still falls squarely in the ‘small market’ definition.

LOL no, this isn't accurate.

OrlDave is correct: it's all determined by the media market size (using Nielsen TV numbers).

Orlando is 17th in the nation at about 1.7M homes. By comparison, the top media market, NYC, is 7.5M homes.

I realize it doesn't work like this but it's an interesting observation: Mike Bianchi of the Orlando Sentinel likes to say if you combined Orlando and Tampa's media markets, you'd be at 3.8M homes, good for 3rd by edging out Chicago. And of the markets ahead of Orlando, none share a geographical neighbor like Tampa and Orlando do. Just food for thought.

If you were curious, Orlando is a bigger market than Miami (17 vs 18).

It is true that social media and the internet have leveled the playing field in terms of exposure for public figures. It's really just a perception thing at the end of the day.

Let's be real: of the marquee free agents in the past decade, we haven't been in play for any of them for reasons beyond our market size. It's come down to cap space, roster construction and not being in a position to contend, not to mention it's been a relatively small list of superstars that have looked elsewhere the past 10 years. The biggest fish at our level during that time was Paul Millsap, but ultimately he didn't sign here.

It's all a way of saying I'm confident that Orlando is still a prime destination for top free agents just as it was for Grant Hill, T-Mac, Tim Duncan and Rashard Lewis over the past 22 years.

[magickingdom]

Big market = Amazing centralized night scene with a large concentration of female models.
Small market = Not as desirable of a place for young, single millionaire males to live.

I’m not sure how to quantify the above but Orlando still falls squarely in the ‘small market’ definition.

LOL no, this isn't accurate.

OrlDave is correct: it's all determined by the media market size (using Nielsen TV numbers).

Orlando is 17th in the nation at about 1.7M homes. By comparison, the top media market, NYC, is 7.5M homes.

I realize it doesn't work like this but it's an interesting observation: Mike Bianchi of the Orlando Sentinel likes to say if you combined Orlando and Tampa's media markets, you'd be at 3.8M homes, good for 3rd by edging out Chicago. And of the markets ahead of Orlando, none share a geographical neighbor like Tampa and Orlando do. Just food for thought.

If you were curious, Orlando is a bigger market than Miami (17 vs 18).

It is true that social media and the internet have leveled the playing field in terms of exposure for public figures. It's really just a perception thing at the end of the day.

Let's be real: of the marquee free agents in the past decade, we haven't been in play for any of them for reasons beyond our market size. It's come down to cap space, roster construction and not being in a position to contend, not to mention it's been a relatively small list of superstars that have looked elsewhere the past 10 years. The biggest fish at our level during that time was Paul Millsap, but ultimately he didn't sign here.

It's all a way of saying I'm confident that Orlando is still a prime destination for top free agents just as it was for Grant Hill, T-Mac, Tim Duncan and Rashard Lewis over the past 22 years.

Amen!

[VFX]

Big market = Amazing centralized night scene with a large concentration of female models.
Small market = Not as desirable of a place for young, single millionaire males to live.

I’m not sure how to quantify the above but Orlando still falls squarely in the ‘small market’ definition.

LOL no, this isn't accurate.

OrlDave is correct: it's all determined by the media market size (using Nielsen TV numbers).

Orlando is 17th in the nation at about 1.7M homes. By comparison, the top media market, NYC, is 7.5M homes.

I realize it doesn't work like this but it's an interesting observation: Mike Bianchi of the Orlando Sentinel likes to say if you combined Orlando and Tampa's media markets, you'd be at 3.8M homes, good for 3rd by edging out Chicago. And of the markets ahead of Orlando, none share a geographical neighbor like Tampa and Orlando do. Just food for thought.

If you were curious, Orlando is a bigger market than Miami (17 vs 18).

It is true that social media and the internet have leveled the playing field in terms of exposure for public figures. It's really just a perception thing at the end of the day.

Let's be real: of the marquee free agents in the past decade, we haven't been in play for any of them for reasons beyond our market size. It's come down to cap space, roster construction and not being in a position to contend, not to mention it's been a relatively small list of superstars that have looked elsewhere the past 10 years. The biggest fish at our level during that time was Paul Millsap, but ultimately he didn't sign here.

It's all a way of saying I'm confident that Orlando is still a prime destination for top free agents just as it was for Grant Hill, T-Mac, Tim Duncan and Rashard Lewis over the past 22 years.

This is looking at it from a non-human perspective.

Some want more commercial opportunities.

Some want to be surrounded by equal levels of wealth and celebrity. (Options for houses, events, people, etc.)

Some want to have more exposure on an international level.

Larger cities will always have those things.

[Black and Blue]

This has changed dramatically in the past 10 years. Market overall isn’t as confined to geographic location as it once was. So my answer would be yes Orlando is still a “smaller market” than your big guys in NYC and LA, but this matters less than it ever has.

Winning trumps everything, as it should. It’s rare to walk around Toronto these days without seeing Raptors gear everywhere and I see it on the subways in New York. -and it was scarce everywhere before they won that championship.

You’ll see, once this team returns to being a contender suddenly the Magic will be a prime free agent destination again. It certainly has more to offer than an Atlanta or Memphis, that’s for sure.

[thelead]

Big market = Amazing centralized night scene with a large concentration of female models.
Small market = Not as desirable of a place for young, single millionaire males to live.

I’m not sure how to quantify the above but Orlando still falls squarely in the ‘small market’ definition.

LOL no, this isn't accurate.

OrlDave is correct: it's all determined by the media market size (using Nielsen TV numbers).

Orlando is 17th in the nation at about 1.7M homes. By comparison, the top media market, NYC, is 7.5M homes.

I realize it doesn't work like this but it's an interesting observation: Mike Bianchi of the Orlando Sentinel likes to say if you combined Orlando and Tampa's media markets, you'd be at 3.8M homes, good for 3rd by edging out Chicago. And of the markets ahead of Orlando, none share a geographical neighbor like Tampa and Orlando do. Just food for thought.

If you were curious, Orlando is a bigger market than Miami (17 vs 18).

It is true that social media and the internet have leveled the playing field in terms of exposure for public figures. It's really just a perception thing at the end of the day.

Let's be real: of the marquee free agents in the past decade, we haven't been in play for any of them for reasons beyond our market size. It's come down to cap space, roster construction and not being in a position to contend, not to mention it's been a relatively small list of superstars that have looked elsewhere the past 10 years. The biggest fish at our level during that time was Paul Millsap, but ultimately he didn't sign here.

It's all a way of saying I'm confident that Orlando is still a prime destination for top free agents just as it was for Grant Hill, T-Mac, Tim Duncan and Rashard Lewis over the past 22 years.

Objectively, sure. But when you see the loud-mouth talking heads, what you said is inaccurate and all that matters is the NY night scene, south beach, and LA. Almost everything else is 'small market' in the eyes of many of the rich youngsters and TV talking heads.

BTW, what do Grant Hill, TMac, Duncan, and Lewis have in common? They all appear to be low-key/quiet guys and likely not needing of what I described as 'big market'.

[tiderulz]

This has changed dramatically in the past 10 years. Market overall isn’t as confined to geographic location as it once was. So my answer would be yes Orlando is still a “smaller market” than your big guys in NYC and LA, but this matters less than it ever has.

Winning trumps everything, as it should. It’s rare to walk around Toronto these days without seeing Raptors gear everywhere and I see it on the subways in New York. -and it was scarce everywhere before they won that championship.

You’ll see, once this team returns to being a contender suddenly the Magic will be a prime free agent destination again. It certainly has more to offer than an Atlanta or Memphis, that’s for sure.

completely disagree. granted i live in Atlanta and been awhile since i lived in Orlando. But Atlanta has a lot more to offer young NBA players. if they want celebrities, movie studios and so many movies and TV shows filming here. Music scene. entertainment and club scene. exactly what is it that Orlando has "more to offer"?

[jonbob17]

The term comes from the population size, but I think people just think of big cities. Orlando is the 18th market size but that includes Daytona to Melbourne.

23 is more accurate in terms of metro area and in line with the Charlotte, San Antonio, Portland and Sacramento.

I think the media has latched on to this idea of the top 5-10 markets being more lucrative to players based on opportunities for endorsements etc, and also city life that young players may be interested in. Probably something to be said to being able to walk down the street in NYC without being accosted by fans, but given the physical size of NBA players it may be hard to blend in anywhere.

Orlando has plenty to offer, and agents probably should really talk more guys to coming here. I mean look at all the professional golfers that live in Florida. One for the weather, but just as importantly the taxes. How much money has Phil Mickelson lost over the years living in CA? Only now is he moving to Florida.

[thelead]

Orlando has plenty to offer, and agents probably should really talk more guys to coming here. I mean look at all the professional golfers that live in Florida. One for the weather, but just as importantly the taxes. How much money has Phil Mickelson lost over the years living in CA? Only now is he moving to Florida.

Professional golfer =/= NBA player

[Black and Blue]

This has changed dramatically in the past 10 years. Market overall isn’t as confined to geographic location as it once was. So my answer would be yes Orlando is still a “smaller market” than your big guys in NYC and LA, but this matters less than it ever has.

Winning trumps everything, as it should. It’s rare to walk around Toronto these days without seeing Raptors gear everywhere and I see it on the subways in New York. -and it was scarce everywhere before they won that championship.

You’ll see, once this team returns to being a contender suddenly the Magic will be a prime free agent destination again. It certainly has more to offer than an Atlanta or Memphis, that’s for sure.

completely disagree. granted i live in Atlanta and been awhile since i lived in Orlando. But Atlanta has a lot more to offer young NBA players. if they want celebrities, movie studios and so many movies and TV shows filming here. Music scene. entertainment and club scene. exactly what is it that Orlando has "more to offer"?

They get to keep more of their money because of the tax situation. Plain and simple.

Beyond that, again if a player is going to force their way to Atlanta it will be to play with a winning team OR because they have family/roots there. If a player says they chose Atlanta over another location like Orlando because of the "celebrities, movie studios of TV shows filming there" it would definitely raise some eyebrows.

This isn't to say Atlanta isn't great. My whole extended family lives in Cobb County, right outside of Atlanta and I can tell you it's wonderful. I just think since the internet made everything more accessible unless it's one of the biggest markets, the contracts and ability to win trump all.

[jonbob17]

Orlando has plenty to offer, and agents probably should really talk more guys to coming here. I mean look at all the professional golfers that live in Florida. One for the weather, but just as importantly the taxes. How much money has Phil Mickelson lost over the years living in CA? Only now is he moving to Florida.

Professional golfer =/= NBA player

Maybe older NBA players, that aren't living in a high-rise condo, that care more about their fortune. You can get a lot of land and privacy here
Something to be said about the weather (other than being really hot)


I guess you get the best of both worlds in Miami and Houston/Dallas

[OrlChamps2030]

This has changed dramatically in the past 10 years. Market overall isn’t as confined to geographic location as it once was. So my answer would be yes Orlando is still a “smaller market” than your big guys in NYC and LA, but this matters less than it ever has.

Winning trumps everything, as it should. It’s rare to walk around Toronto these days without seeing Raptors gear everywhere and I see it on the subways in New York. -and it was scarce everywhere before they won that championship.

You’ll see, once this team returns to being a contender suddenly the Magic will be a prime free agent destination again. It certainly has more to offer than an Atlanta or Memphis, that’s for sure.

completely disagree. granted i live in Atlanta and been awhile since i lived in Orlando. But Atlanta has a lot more to offer young NBA players. if they want celebrities, movie studios and so many movies and TV shows filming here. Music scene. entertainment and club scene. exactly what is it that Orlando has "more to offer"?

They get to keep more of their money because of the tax situation. Plain and simple.

Beyond that, again if a player is going to force their way to Atlanta it will be to play with a winning team OR because they have family/roots there. If a player says they chose Atlanta over another location like Orlando because of the "celebrities, movie studios of TV shows filming there" it would definitely raise some eyebrows.

This isn't to say Atlanta isn't great. My whole extended family lives in Cobb County, right outside of Atlanta and I can tell you it's wonderful. I just think since the internet made everything more accessible unless it's one of the biggest markets, the contracts and ability to win trump all.

Atlanta is the capital of hip-hop culture right now and is pretty known for its nightlife. I think you’re selling it a little short on its appeal when it comes to 20 something year old NBA players. Not to mention they have a star PG in Trae



But yeah for all intents and purposes orlando is a medium market, but it seems like every market outside of the top ones gets treated as an afterthought

[tiderulz]

This has changed dramatically in the past 10 years. Market overall isn’t as confined to geographic location as it once was. So my answer would be yes Orlando is still a “smaller market” than your big guys in NYC and LA, but this matters less than it ever has.

Winning trumps everything, as it should. It’s rare to walk around Toronto these days without seeing Raptors gear everywhere and I see it on the subways in New York. -and it was scarce everywhere before they won that championship.

You’ll see, once this team returns to being a contender suddenly the Magic will be a prime free agent destination again. It certainly has more to offer than an Atlanta or Memphis, that’s for sure.

completely disagree. granted i live in Atlanta and been awhile since i lived in Orlando. But Atlanta has a lot more to offer young NBA players. if they want celebrities, movie studios and so many movies and TV shows filming here. Music scene. entertainment and club scene. exactly what is it that Orlando has "more to offer"?

They get to keep more of their money because of the tax situation. Plain and simple.

Beyond that, again if a player is going to force their way to Atlanta it will be to play with a winning team OR because they have family/roots there. If a player says they chose Atlanta over another location like Orlando because of the "celebrities, movie studios of TV shows filming there" it would definitely raise some eyebrows.

This isn't to say Atlanta isn't great. My whole extended family lives in Cobb County, right outside of Atlanta and I can tell you it's wonderful. I just think since the internet made everything more accessible unless it's one of the biggest markets, the contracts and ability to win trump all.

the tax thing is legit, but not as much as you think. You pay taxes where you work, so whenever you play in TX, TN or Florida, you dont pay taxes. but you said ORlando has more to offer, but they really dont.

sidenote: i also live in Cobb county.

[Black and Blue]

completely disagree. granted i live in Atlanta and been awhile since i lived in Orlando. But Atlanta has a lot more to offer young NBA players. if they want celebrities, movie studios and so many movies and TV shows filming here. Music scene. entertainment and club scene. exactly what is it that Orlando has "more to offer"?

They get to keep more of their money because of the tax situation. Plain and simple.

Beyond that, again if a player is going to force their way to Atlanta it will be to play with a winning team OR because they have family/roots there. If a player says they chose Atlanta over another location like Orlando because of the "celebrities, movie studios of TV shows filming there" it would definitely raise some eyebrows.

This isn't to say Atlanta isn't great. My whole extended family lives in Cobb County, right outside of Atlanta and I can tell you it's wonderful. I just think since the internet made everything more accessible unless it's one of the biggest markets, the contracts and ability to win trump all.

Atlanta is the capital of hip-hop culture right now and is pretty known for its nightlife. I think you’re selling it a little short on its appeal when it comes to 20 something year old NBA players. Not to mention they have a star PG in Trae



But yeah for all intents and purposes orlando is a medium market, but it seems like every market outside of the top ones gets treated as an afterthought

That is precisely my point, TOTALLY agree more free agents would want to go to ATL more than Orlando right now to play with Trae. I am definitely with you there. I think winning teams are more important in general than the other stuff a city has to offer.

Regarding the hip-hop culture thing, I definitely defer to those more in the know regarding NBA players also being hip hop artists/part of the culture there. Not my area of expertise. This does, however, give me hope for a Kevin Huerter gangsta rap album.

[Black and Blue]

completely disagree. granted i live in Atlanta and been awhile since i lived in Orlando. But Atlanta has a lot more to offer young NBA players. if they want celebrities, movie studios and so many movies and TV shows filming here. Music scene. entertainment and club scene. exactly what is it that Orlando has "more to offer"?

They get to keep more of their money because of the tax situation. Plain and simple.

Beyond that, again if a player is going to force their way to Atlanta it will be to play with a winning team OR because they have family/roots there. If a player says they chose Atlanta over another location like Orlando because of the "celebrities, movie studios of TV shows filming there" it would definitely raise some eyebrows.

This isn't to say Atlanta isn't great. My whole extended family lives in Cobb County, right outside of Atlanta and I can tell you it's wonderful. I just think since the internet made everything more accessible unless it's one of the biggest markets, the contracts and ability to win trump all.

the tax thing is legit, but not as much as you think. You pay taxes where you work, so whenever you play in TX, TN or Florida, you dont pay taxes. but you said ORlando has more to offer, but they really dont.

sidenote: i also live in Cobb county.

Well you raise a good point. With your note that the tax difference is legit (but not as huge a swing as some may think) it made me think about what people personally value when it comes to cities. I may have been rash in my assessment that Orlando has more to offer because I was looking at it through a personal lens. Orlando has less violent crime, cheaper schools, access to a warmer climate and (believe it or not) less traffic...but that very well may not be what matters to other people. Atlanta does have more to do, and the size of the city may factor better into egos.

I think that when you get to cities outside of the biggest markets you start to get more in the subjectivity of the players themselves. I still believe the market size doesn't matter as much as it did 10 years ago, but quality of life certainly will factor in.

[tiderulz]

They get to keep more of their money because of the tax situation. Plain and simple.

Beyond that, again if a player is going to force their way to Atlanta it will be to play with a winning team OR because they have family/roots there. If a player says they chose Atlanta over another location like Orlando because of the "celebrities, movie studios of TV shows filming there" it would definitely raise some eyebrows.

This isn't to say Atlanta isn't great. My whole extended family lives in Cobb County, right outside of Atlanta and I can tell you it's wonderful. I just think since the internet made everything more accessible unless it's one of the biggest markets, the contracts and ability to win trump all.

the tax thing is legit, but not as much as you think. You pay taxes where you work, so whenever you play in TX, TN or Florida, you dont pay taxes. but you said ORlando has more to offer, but they really dont.

sidenote: i also live in Cobb county.

Well you raise a good point. With your note that the tax difference is legit (but not as huge a swing as some may think) it made me think about what people personally value when it comes to cities. I may have been rash in my assessment that Orlando has more to offer because I was looking at it through a personal lens. Orlando has less violent crime, cheaper schools, access to a warmer climate and (believe it or not) less traffic...but that very well may not be what matters to other people. Atlanta does have more to do, and the size of the city may factor better into egos.

I think that when you get to cities outside of the biggest markets you start to get more in the subjectivity of the players themselves. I still believe the market size doesn't matter as much as it did 10 years ago, but quality of life certainly will factor in.

does it have cheaper schools? i will say i rented when i lived in Orlando, so i dont know the property tax level, which likely pays for the schools. Atlanta property tax is fairly low and schools are good. but lets be real too, any athlete is sending their kids to private schools

[basketballRob]

the tax thing is legit, but not as much as you think. You pay taxes where you work, so whenever you play in TX, TN or Florida, you dont pay taxes. but you said ORlando has more to offer, but they really dont.

sidenote: i also live in Cobb county.

Well you raise a good point. With your note that the tax difference is legit (but not as huge a swing as some may think) it made me think about what people personally value when it comes to cities. I may have been rash in my assessment that Orlando has more to offer because I was looking at it through a personal lens. Orlando has less violent crime, cheaper schools, access to a warmer climate and (believe it or not) less traffic...but that very well may not be what matters to other people. Atlanta does have more to do, and the size of the city may factor better into egos.

I think that when you get to cities outside of the biggest markets you start to get more in the subjectivity of the players themselves. I still believe the market size doesn't matter as much as it did 10 years ago, but quality of life certainly will factor in.

does it have cheaper schools? i will say i rented when i lived in Orlando, so i dont know the property tax level, which likely pays for the schools. Atlanta property tax is fairly low and schools are good. but lets be real too, any athlete is sending their kids to private schools

Homeowner's insurance is going up like crazy in Florida. Mine went up like 50% last year and now 250% this year.

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