Better Player Right Now: Stephen Curry or Jokic

[dhsilv2]

As incredible as Jokic is, it's crazy to me that Curry is losing this poll. An all-time great who repeatedly has come up big in deep playoff runs, who just this month absolutely torched the best defense in the league (who allegedly had all the tools to slow him down) on his way to another championship. I'm not an anti-numbers guy but I think people are missing the forest for the trees in this comparison.

Does right now mean 2021-22 season or does it mean 2022-23 season that's coming up? As the song goes, yesterday's gone, yesterday's gone.

My answer is Curry for either season. If anything next season will be much more favorable to Curry unless we're predicting him to slump that hard again mid-season.

A small guard at 34-35 vs a center at 27-28.... But you think Curry is the one that'll be better next year?

[shoresy69]

Does right now mean 2021-22 season or does it mean 2022-23 season that's coming up? As the song goes, yesterday's gone, yesterday's gone.

The finals happened literally a few weeks ago…

The last image we have of Jokic is of him getting dusted repeatedly by Curry. It’s silly that this is even a debate.

I saw Jokic putting in a super human effort and nearly took the eventual champs to 6 games on a team that had no business making the playoffs in the first place. I certainly hope you didn't change your view of Curry because of the playoffs this year!

I did not change my opinion of Curry due to the playoffs, it just reinforced what I already thought.

Jokic was incredible against GS, but "nearly took the eventual champs to 6 games" is a funny way to say lost in 5 (and started the series down 3-0). Obviously Jokic's playoffs will go better next season but that series was never in doubt or competitive. With only one real center on GS's roster it was also a perfect matchup for Jokic individually. Not really comparable to Curry vs Boston.

A small guard at 34-35 vs a center at 27-28.... But you think Curry is the one that'll be better next year?

Yes, Curry is that good. He is not the average 34 year old guard lol

[Big J]

The finals happened literally a few weeks ago…

The last image we have of Jokic is of him getting dusted repeatedly by Curry. It’s silly that this is even a debate.

I saw Jokic putting in a super human effort and nearly took the eventual champs to 6 games on a team that had no business making the playoffs in the first place. I certainly hope you didn't change your view of Curry because of the playoffs this year!

I did not change my opinion of Curry due to the playoffs, it just reinforced what I already thought.

Jokic was incredible against GS, but "nearly took the eventual champs to 6 games" is a funny way to say lost in 5 (and started the series down 3-0). Obviously Jokic's playoffs will go better next season but that series was never in doubt or competitive. With only one real center on GS's roster it was also a perfect matchup for Jokic individually. Not really comparable to Curry vs Boston.

A small guard at 34-35 vs a center at 27-28.... But you think Curry is the one that'll be better next year?

Yes, Curry is that good. He is not the average 34 year old guard lol

What Jokic did on offense against GS was incredible. What he did on defense was laughable.

[shoresy69]

What Jokic did on offense against GS was incredible. What he did on defense was laughable.

That's fair. It was a weird matchup where GS's defense had no answer for Jokic, but GS's offense was Jokic's worst nightmare

[dhsilv2]

The finals happened literally a few weeks ago…

The last image we have of Jokic is of him getting dusted repeatedly by Curry. It’s silly that this is even a debate.

I saw Jokic putting in a super human effort and nearly took the eventual champs to 6 games on a team that had no business making the playoffs in the first place. I certainly hope you didn't change your view of Curry because of the playoffs this year!

I did not change my opinion of Curry due to the playoffs, it just reinforced what I already thought.

Jokic was incredible against GS, but "nearly took the eventual champs to 6 games" is a funny way to say lost in 5 (and started the series down 3-0). Obviously Jokic's playoffs will go better next season but that series was never in doubt or competitive. With only one real center on GS's roster it was also a perfect matchup for Jokic individually. Not really comparable to Curry vs Boston.

A small guard at 34-35 vs a center at 27-28.... But you think Curry is the one that'll be better next year?

Yes, Curry is that good. He is not the average 34 year old guard lol

What does good have to do with the human aging process?

[shoresy69]

What does good have to do with the human aging process?

His skillset and conditioning level suggest he won't drop off much, if at all, next season. He'll probably be even better assuming no massive slump.

The injury risk as he ages is very real, but I don't think his level of on-court play will be affected.

[michaelm]

Nobody is claiming Jokic is better than Al or Timelord. But Jokic ran an offense SIGNIFICANTLY better than boston did with no real help. The defensive issues if he had proper teammates would reduce this problem drastically. He'd still be worse defensively, but he can offset it with his offense.

I never said he can't offset it to a degree. Jokic offensively is an absolute **** wizard and said I said before, he's so good that it's insulting that people claim Embiid is better. His ability to elevate his teammate's games is around the level that the top 3-4 other players in the league have. As a center however, your defense will always keep you down. That's why I harp on the fact that no team has made a finals in space and pace era with a #1 guy being a center.

However if I had to be a betting man, I'd put money on Joker on being the first one.

I never said you did. My point has been and is that we're over stating how poor Jokic's defense was due to his teammates. Not saying he was an elite defender nor am I saying it isn't an area that can be exploited in the playoffs. People however are turning this into meme level bad defense vs the reality...Jokic can't guard Curry in isolation like 99.9% of players in the league and his team needs to do a better job of protecting that and making it harder to get those switches.

Which is why Curry is so good actually.

Jokic’s career is young, he might get fitter, Denver should put a better roster around him, etc etc but until he proves his style of play will work against the very best opposition deep in the play-offs then it can’t be assumed that it definitely will imo. Sure they should recruit players better suited to be elite perimeter defenders, his physiology like most traditional sized centers doesn’t really allow him to be one, it is not really a knock on him, but there can be no certainty a good enough defense can be built containing him. This we know is possible with Curry, although as you say this requires good to great defensive players next to him. I don’t necessarily disagree with your early season argument that Wiggins needs Green next to him to guide him/provide defensive nous btw, but a player no one wanted provided elite defense for GSW and at some level you have to give him and GSW credit rather than calling GSW stacked as many do despite them not being highly favoured before the season.

Again, Probably very few players could have carried Denver as Jokic did, but in what area of the game exactly could Curry have done more in the play-offs ?.

I am not averse to the best player on the best team being the best player in general. LeBron for years didn’t give full effort in the regular season which was a sound strategy because it is clearly too long. Curry was largely responsible for the best regular season record of all time but came to realise the same thing obviously.

[dhsilv2]

I never said he can't offset it to a degree. Jokic offensively is an absolute **** wizard and said I said before, he's so good that it's insulting that people claim Embiid is better. His ability to elevate his teammate's games is around the level that the top 3-4 other players in the league have. As a center however, your defense will always keep you down. That's why I harp on the fact that no team has made a finals in space and pace era with a #1 guy being a center.

However if I had to be a betting man, I'd put money on Joker on being the first one.

I never said you did. My point has been and is that we're over stating how poor Jokic's defense was due to his teammates. Not saying he was an elite defender nor am I saying it isn't an area that can be exploited in the playoffs. People however are turning this into meme level bad defense vs the reality...Jokic can't guard Curry in isolation like 99.9% of players in the league and his team needs to do a better job of protecting that and making it harder to get those switches.

Which is why Curry is so good actually.

Jokic’s career is young, he might get fitter, Denver should put a better roster around him, etc etc but until he proves his style of play will work against the very best opposition deep in the play-offs then it can’t be assumed that it definitely will imo. Sure they should recruit players better suited to be elite perimeter defenders, his physiology like most traditional sized centers doesn’t really allow him to be one, it is not really a knock on him, but there can be no certainty a good enough defense can be built containing him. This we know is possible with Curry, although as you say this requires good to great defensive players next to him. I don’t necessarily disagree with your early season argument that Wiggins needs Green next to him to guide him/provide defensive nous btw, but a player no one wanted provided elite defense for GSW and at some level you have to give him and GSW credit rather than calling GSW stacked as many do despite them not being highly favoured before the season.

Again, Probably very few players could have carried Denver as Jokic did, but in what area of the game exactly could Curry have done more in the play-offs ?.

I am not averse to the best player on the best team being the best player in general. LeBron for years didn’t give full effort in the regular season which was a sound strategy because it is clearly too long. Curry was largely responsible for the best regular season record of all time but came to realise the same thing obviously.

I'm just fully out when someone says that a player has to prove it at the highest level. That's a full non starter for me. We knew in 2009 lebron was going to be in the GOAT peak talk. We knew giannis had arrived 2 years before his titles and we know the same thing about Jokic now.

[michaelm]

I never said you did. My point has been and is that we're over stating how poor Jokic's defense was due to his teammates. Not saying he was an elite defender nor am I saying it isn't an area that can be exploited in the playoffs. People however are turning this into meme level bad defense vs the reality...Jokic can't guard Curry in isolation like 99.9% of players in the league and his team needs to do a better job of protecting that and making it harder to get those switches.

Which is why Curry is so good actually.

Jokic’s career is young, he might get fitter, Denver should put a better roster around him, etc etc but until he proves his style of play will work against the very best opposition deep in the play-offs then it can’t be assumed that it definitely will imo. Sure they should recruit players better suited to be elite perimeter defenders, his physiology like most traditional sized centers doesn’t really allow him to be one, it is not really a knock on him, but there can be no certainty a good enough defense can be built containing him. This we know is possible with Curry, although as you say this requires good to great defensive players next to him. I don’t necessarily disagree with your early season argument that Wiggins needs Green next to him to guide him/provide defensive nous btw, but a player no one wanted provided elite defense for GSW and at some level you have to give him and GSW credit rather than calling GSW stacked as many do despite them not being highly favoured before the season.

Again, Probably very few players could have carried Denver as Jokic did, but in what area of the game exactly could Curry have done more in the play-offs ?.

I am not averse to the best player on the best team being the best player in general. LeBron for years didn’t give full effort in the regular season which was a sound strategy because it is clearly too long. Curry was largely responsible for the best regular season record of all time but came to realise the same thing obviously.

I'm just fully out when someone says that a player has to prove it at the highest level. That's a full non starter for me. We knew in 2009 lebron was going to be in the GOAT peak talk. We knew giannis had arrived 2 years before his titles and we know the same thing about Jokic now.

We disagree then. Still leaves the question of what more Curry should have/could have done, and that he is significantly responsible for the whole GSW thing since this team was built around him and far from being a desired destination for FAs was nowhere for 40 years before him.

[dhsilv2]

Which is why Curry is so good actually.

Jokic’s career is young, he might get fitter, Denver should put a better roster around him, etc etc but until he proves his style of play will work against the very best opposition deep in the play-offs then it can’t be assumed that it definitely will imo. Sure they should recruit players better suited to be elite perimeter defenders, his physiology like most traditional sized centers doesn’t really allow him to be one, it is not really a knock on him, but there can be no certainty a good enough defense can be built containing him. This we know is possible with Curry, although as you say this requires good to great defensive players next to him. I don’t necessarily disagree with your early season argument that Wiggins needs Green next to him to guide him/provide defensive nous btw, but a player no one wanted provided elite defense for GSW and at some level you have to give him and GSW credit rather than calling GSW stacked as many do despite them not being highly favoured before the season.

Again, Probably very few players could have carried Denver as Jokic did, but in what area of the game exactly could Curry have done more in the play-offs ?.

I am not averse to the best player on the best team being the best player in general. LeBron for years didn’t give full effort in the regular season which was a sound strategy because it is clearly too long. Curry was largely responsible for the best regular season record of all time but came to realise the same thing obviously.

I'm just fully out when someone says that a player has to prove it at the highest level. That's a full non starter for me. We knew in 2009 lebron was going to be in the GOAT peak talk. We knew giannis had arrived 2 years before his titles and we know the same thing about Jokic now.

We disagree then. Still leaves the question of what more Curry should have/could have done, and that he is significantly responsible for the whole GSW thing since this team was built around him and far from being a desired destination for FAs was nowhere for 40 years before him.

I don't get the question on what more could curry have done. Done for what? If it's why do I rank Jokic ahead of Curry, it's a very small difference. Simply put, wouldn't have to do much more

[Jerry Maine]

Curry was isolated on switches multiple times against Jayson Tatum on the finals and he more than held up. His teammates were not giving him help on those matchups either. The fact is it’s much easier to exploit a center with mobility issues than it is a strong quick guard like Curry.

Tatum was missing good looks...

It wasn’t just missed shots. Curry also stripped him multiple times and forced him into turnovers.

Curry was excellent defensively for a 1 the whole playoffs.

A lot of guys haven't notice the improvement since 2019 when he really started hitting the weights because the Dubs weren't contending

[WarriorGM]

I never said you did. My point has been and is that we're over stating how poor Jokic's defense was due to his teammates. Not saying he was an elite defender nor am I saying it isn't an area that can be exploited in the playoffs. People however are turning this into meme level bad defense vs the reality...Jokic can't guard Curry in isolation like 99.9% of players in the league and his team needs to do a better job of protecting that and making it harder to get those switches.

Which is why Curry is so good actually.

Jokic’s career is young, he might get fitter, Denver should put a better roster around him, etc etc but until he proves his style of play will work against the very best opposition deep in the play-offs then it can’t be assumed that it definitely will imo. Sure they should recruit players better suited to be elite perimeter defenders, his physiology like most traditional sized centers doesn’t really allow him to be one, it is not really a knock on him, but there can be no certainty a good enough defense can be built containing him. This we know is possible with Curry, although as you say this requires good to great defensive players next to him. I don’t necessarily disagree with your early season argument that Wiggins needs Green next to him to guide him/provide defensive nous btw, but a player no one wanted provided elite defense for GSW and at some level you have to give him and GSW credit rather than calling GSW stacked as many do despite them not being highly favoured before the season.

Again, Probably very few players could have carried Denver as Jokic did, but in what area of the game exactly could Curry have done more in the play-offs ?.

I am not averse to the best player on the best team being the best player in general. LeBron for years didn’t give full effort in the regular season which was a sound strategy because it is clearly too long. Curry was largely responsible for the best regular season record of all time but came to realise the same thing obviously.

I'm just fully out when someone says that a player has to prove it at the highest level. That's a full non starter for me. We knew in 2009 lebron was going to be in the GOAT peak talk. We knew giannis had arrived 2 years before his titles and we know the same thing about Jokic now.

Well I'm fully out with such logic. Did most people see the same with Curry? Did people even see it with Jokic? I do not see how you can reconcile saying we know this about Jokic now but not with Curry in 2016. As for LeBron and Giannis, I think that's presumption and bias talking. Sure they are good—but as good as they are commonly portrayed as? No, I don't think so. LeBron is not the second greatest player of all-time. Giannis's and Jokic's back-to-back MVPs are going to look odd if they don't win another championship or a first respectively.

[dhsilv2]

Which is why Curry is so good actually.

Jokic’s career is young, he might get fitter, Denver should put a better roster around him, etc etc but until he proves his style of play will work against the very best opposition deep in the play-offs then it can’t be assumed that it definitely will imo. Sure they should recruit players better suited to be elite perimeter defenders, his physiology like most traditional sized centers doesn’t really allow him to be one, it is not really a knock on him, but there can be no certainty a good enough defense can be built containing him. This we know is possible with Curry, although as you say this requires good to great defensive players next to him. I don’t necessarily disagree with your early season argument that Wiggins needs Green next to him to guide him/provide defensive nous btw, but a player no one wanted provided elite defense for GSW and at some level you have to give him and GSW credit rather than calling GSW stacked as many do despite them not being highly favoured before the season.

Again, Probably very few players could have carried Denver as Jokic did, but in what area of the game exactly could Curry have done more in the play-offs ?.

I am not averse to the best player on the best team being the best player in general. LeBron for years didn’t give full effort in the regular season which was a sound strategy because it is clearly too long. Curry was largely responsible for the best regular season record of all time but came to realise the same thing obviously.

I'm just fully out when someone says that a player has to prove it at the highest level. That's a full non starter for me. We knew in 2009 lebron was going to be in the GOAT peak talk. We knew giannis had arrived 2 years before his titles and we know the same thing about Jokic now.

Well I'm fully out with such logic. Did most people see the same with Curry? Did people even see it with Jokic? I do not see how you can reconcile saying we know this about Jokic now but not with Curry in 2016. As for LeBron and Giannis, I think that's presumption and bias talking. Sure they are good—but as good as they are commonly portrayed as? No, I don't think so. LeBron is not the second greatest player of all-time. Giannis's and Jokic's back-to-back MVPs are going to look odd if they don't win another championship or a first respectively.

In 2016 it was clearly Curry was in the discussion for greatest offensive player/peak ever. And what does look odd mean? Who cares if a player wins a title or not? KG only won one, and nobody smart questions him having a strong case as a top 10 guy.

[WarriorGM]

I'm just fully out when someone says that a player has to prove it at the highest level. That's a full non starter for me. We knew in 2009 lebron was going to be in the GOAT peak talk. We knew giannis had arrived 2 years before his titles and we know the same thing about Jokic now.

Well I'm fully out with such logic. Did most people see the same with Curry? Did people even see it with Jokic? I do not see how you can reconcile saying we know this about Jokic now but not with Curry in 2016. As for LeBron and Giannis, I think that's presumption and bias talking. Sure they are good—but as good as they are commonly portrayed as? No, I don't think so. LeBron is not the second greatest player of all-time. Giannis's and Jokic's back-to-back MVPs are going to look odd if they don't win another championship or a first respectively.

In 2016 it was clearly Curry was in the discussion for greatest offensive player/peak ever. And what does look odd mean? Who cares if a player wins a title or not? KG only won one, and nobody smart questions him having a strong case as a top 10 guy.

If they aren't winning titles then what are you basing things off of? Records? Then what records are they producing? Just winning in general? Okay what outlier examples of winning are they producing?

If they aren't doing any of the above, then what you are left with is theory and speculation. It is far easier to go from winning to justify a player is doing something special than from a player doing something special and saying it leads to winning.

[dhsilv2]

Well I'm fully out with such logic. Did most people see the same with Curry? Did people even see it with Jokic? I do not see how you can reconcile saying we know this about Jokic now but not with Curry in 2016. As for LeBron and Giannis, I think that's presumption and bias talking. Sure they are good—but as good as they are commonly portrayed as? No, I don't think so. LeBron is not the second greatest player of all-time. Giannis's and Jokic's back-to-back MVPs are going to look odd if they don't win another championship or a first respectively.

In 2016 it was clearly Curry was in the discussion for greatest offensive player/peak ever. And what does look odd mean? Who cares if a player wins a title or not? KG only won one, and nobody smart questions him having a strong case as a top 10 guy.

If they aren't winning titles then what are you basing things off of? Records? Then what records are they producing? Just winning in general? Okay what outlier examples of winning are they producing?

If they aren't doing any of the above, then what you are left with is theory and speculation. It is far easier to go from winning to justify a player is doing something special than from a player doing something special and saying it leads to winning.

It's just as hard to say a player is the reason his team is winning as it is to see the skills and talents that lead to winning displayed on the court. I judge players on how they play. Nothing more, nothing less.

[ShootersShoot]

Ben wallace/billups won a chip in 04 as the best players on the pistons. Does that mean I would take either over KG who was then 27 years old but hasnt won anything? Not quite. Not comparing any of those players to each other but I'm just saying that it can be logical to take a player who "hasnt won anything" to another player who has won it all previously. If we swap jokic with steph on their respective teams, the warriors could still possibly contend. Steph is still a superstar and its very reasonable to choose him as well. Your points are definitely valid and logical.

I think there are limits of course when you doubt that Wallace or Billups is more likely to bring a championship in the next year than KG.

Whenever I watch steph play, I am just in awe at how good he is.

Agreed, he is amazing in ways that the stat sheet does not even show.

I also feel the same way when I watch Jokic play, dude is a generational level player in his own right.

I think he is great but but I might not go as far as you given how many great players the NBA has. I think it is fair to say that the NBA has more than 5 people who seem deserving of being called a top 5 player. Is Embiid top 5, seems like he should be. Giannis, he must be right? Curry, KD, LeBron, Booker, Trae Young, Luka Dončić, Ja Morant? Someone out there would argue any one of them is top 5 but they can''t all be. Personally I focus on winning a championship because that is the end goal. Jokic will absolutely be competing for that goal along with every other player I mentioned. I believe Curry even at his age gives me the highest odds of a championship. If Jokic starts winning championships, as John Maynard Keynes said; "When the data changes, I change my mind."

Jokic averages 27ppg, 13rpg, and 8apg on like 65-66% TS, with 100% of the defense keying in on him. Its very obvious those are generational center numbers. One doesnt have to win a championship for people to be able to see that. And yes, he is easily better than booker/Ja/Trae cmon now. Looking at Jokic's skillset, is he any less skilled than say, Dirk, whom I would consider a generational player?

Even if you don't consider him generational, Jokic is easily giving superstar impact.

Phew, Feels good to be right for once