Wilt vs. Kareem: Who Was Greater (Make Your Case!)

[ty 4191]

I won't go into too much detail, to start, here, but I really wanted to see/flush out everyone's case for who was greater, and why.

A few points, to start...from this amazing thread by 70's Fan and I (mostly, him- it was his idea, and, he did 90%+ of the work!)

viewtopic.php?f=64&t=1836300

1. Who faced better defenses, overall, in the playoffs, in their careers?

Using 70s Fan's Exact Criteria, here we go:

Wilt vs. Elite + All Time Great Defenses:
45% of total playoff games played
47.2 MPG
25.0 PPG
26.6 RBG
3.5 AST/G
rTS%: +3.8%

Kareem vs. Elite + All Time Great Defenses:
13.9% of total playoff games played
42.1 MPG
29.4 PPG
14.2 RBG
3.8 AST/G
rTS%: +4.8%

45% for Wilt (highest in NBA history of any ATG Player, incidentally).

13.9% for Kareem, career, playoffs.

Wilt faced drastically stronger defenses than Kareem.

2. Who faced better teams, overall, in the playoffs, in their careers?

viewtopic.php?f=64&t=2185164&p=98293842#p98293842

Lower -2.0 Net Rating: Bad Team
From -2.0 to +1.9 Net Rating: Average Team
From +2.0 to +3.9 Net Rating: Good Team
From +4.0 to +6.0 Net Rating: Elite Team
Above +7.0 Net Rating: All-Time Great Team

Performance Against The Very Best: Versus Elite + All Time Great Teams

Wilt: (46.2% of total games): 47.2 MPG, 26.8 PPG, 24.3 RBS, 3.4 AST, (+2.8 rTS%)

Kareem: (27.1% of total games): 39.4 MPG, 27.1 PPG, 12.4 RBS, 3.3 AST, (+4.6% rTS%)

Wilt Chamberlain:

Regular Season: 45.8 MPG, 30.1 PPG, 22.9 RBS, 4.4 AST, .540 FG% (+5.5 rTS%)

Against Bad Teams: (0% of playoff games): -----
Against Average Teams: (30.6% of playoff games): 47.9 MPG, 27.2 PPG, 26.9 RBS, 5.9 AST (+5.2 rTS%)
Against Good Teams: (23.1% of playoff games): 46.6 MPG, 27.2 PPG, 21.2 RBS, 3.2 AST (+5.2 tTS%)
Against Elite Teams: (31.2% of playoff games): 47 MPG, 18.1 PPG, 23.3 RBS, 4.2 AST (+1.6 rTS%)
Against All Time Great Teams: (15% of playoff games): 47.4 MPG, 35.4 PPG, 25.3 RBS, 2.5 AST, (+4.0 rTS%)

Kareem Abdul-Jabaar:

Regular Season: 36.8 MPG, 24.6 PPG, 11.2 RBS, 3.6 AST, .559 FG%, (+6.8 tTS%)

Against Bad Teams: (5.8% of playoff games): 42.6 MPG, 30.2 PPG, 13.9 RBS, 3.6 AST, (+4.4 rTS%)
Against Average Teams: (26.6% of playoff games): 44.8 MPG, 29.7 PPG, 15.8 RBS, 4.1 AST (+8.1 rTS%)
Against Good Teams: (40.4% of playoff games): 29.9 MPG, 18.4 PPG, 6.1 RBS, 2.5 AST, (+2.2 rTS%)
Against Elite Teams: (18.8% of playoff games): 36.6 MPG, 23.4 PPG, 8.2 RBS, 3.3 AST, (+6.9 rTS%)
Against All Time Great Teams: (8.3% of playoff games): 42.2 MPG, 30.8 PPG, 16.6 RBS, 3.3 AST, (+2.5 tTS%)

Wilt faced drastically stronger teams in the playoffs, overall, than Kareem.

--Could/would Kareem have averaged 41/25/3 for 6.5 years on the Warriors, 1960-1965?

--Could Kareem have averaged 22.3 rebounds per game, playing in Wilt's Era?

--Could Kareem have averaged 8.8 blocks per game, playing in Wilt's Era? (Wilt actually did, including averaging a Triple Double in 1962, including blocks...Harvey Pollack tracked stats for every game Wilt played and the data is out there).

https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-tTIVEWsAP14/VkFK-IE7GHI/AAAAAAAAHSo/n_u04_ScpoQ/s0-Ic42/Wilt%252520blocked%252520shots.jpg

--Could Kareem have done this (see directly below) had he been essentially forced to totally reinvent his game mid career, stop scoring, and focus on defense and passing?

Most Triple Doubles, 67'-68' including playoffs:
Wilt: 60
Oscar: 15
Russell: 6
Halicek: 4
Baylor: 3
Frazier: 2

--Could Kareem have averaged 8.6 assists per game in a season?

--Could Kareem have averaged 46.2 MPG, 90 games a year, for 14 years?

(And the list goes on...)

Just a conversation starter. I see Kareem burying Wilt in our All Time Voting...

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1HWQLTqFcJdJJNvMFDAwikJXujuh75uajUPrE0eF2XXc/edit#gid=0

And....I just don't understand it. Or, agree, as yet...but, my mind is open!!

Discuss!!

Thanks, everyone, for your time and input!!

[Ginoboleee]

Great opening post, and so many fun questions included.
You pulled together a lot of interesting statistics.
This thread will hopefully take off once the NBA Red Alert of the sudden KD Trade Demand starts to calm down just a wee bit.

Wilt was totally dominant in the 60s, there is no doubting this whatsoever.
The only meaningful limitation to his game was in the playoffs, pretty much only against Russell's Celtics.
Otherwise, he was absolutely boss level GOAT back in the day.
All of this is perfectly obvious, right?
Unless, of course, you weighted championships more, which, eventually I think most everybody did, as history has treated Russell quite well.
Now analytics revisits the question with lots of new tools/measures/insights.

Kareem in the 70s is a bit more of a complicated story, as I'm sure others will share as we move forward in this thread.
He was my absolute favorite player growing up, for a variety of reasons, and in my book had held off MJ for King of Goat Mountain until MJ got his 4th or 5th ring.

I look forward to seeing how everybody develops methods/criteria/weighting to choose one over the other!

[coastalmarker99]

In the 1971 WCF's, the 34-year-old Chamberlain outplayed the 24-year-old Abdul-Jabbar in 3 of the 5 games.

The Bucks were a better team, however, and they defeated the Lakers in 5 games.

1971 Western Conference Finals

Game 1 Abdul-Jabbar 32 Points 22 Rebounds 2 Blocked Shots 14-30 From The Field
Chamberlain 22 Points 20 Rebounds 8 Blocked Shots 10-19 From The Field

Game 2 Abdul-Jabbar 22 Points 10 Rebounds 2 Blocked Shots 9-19 From The Field
Chamberlain 26 Points 22 Rebounds 3 Blocked Shots 10-21 From The Field

Game 3 Abdul-Jabbar 20 Points 19 Rebounds 1 Blocked Shot 8-16 From The Field
Chamberlain 24 Points 24 Rebounds 3 Blocked Shots 9-19 From The Field

Game 4 Abdul-Jabbar 31 Points 20 Rebounds 3 Blocked Shots 14-20 From The Field
Chamberlain 15 Points 16 Rebounds 6 Blocked Shots 7-14 From The Field

Game 5 Abdul-Jabbar 20 Points 15 Rebounds 3 Blocked Shots 7-23 From The Field
Chamberlain 23 Points 12 Rebounds 6 Blocked Shots 10-21 From The Field



In the 1972 WCF's, Kareem outplayed Wilt in the first 2 games of the series.

But with the series tied at 1-1, the 35-year-old Chamberlain turned up the defensive pressure on the 25-year-old Abdul-Jabbar.

In Game 3, Wilt held Kareem scoreless in the last 11 minutes of the game and also blocked 9 shots in that game.



Also in the last 4 games of the series, Chamberlain blocked 33 shots and held Abdul-Jabbar to a FG% of .414


And with the series tied at 2-2, Wilt closed the show with back to back clutch performances.

Jerry West called Wilt's Game 6 performance, "the greatest ball busting performance I've ever seen."

Game 5 12 Points 26 Rebounds 6 Assists 10 Blocked Shots 2-3 From The Field 8-8 From The Free Throw Line

Game 6 20 Points 24 Rebounds 9 Blocked Shots 8-12 From The Field

Now, imagine how a 34 to 35-year-old Abdul-Jabbar would fare against a prime Wilt Chamberlain?

[penbeast0]

Wilt was the superior player in his prime, though Kareem was certainly great as well. Wilt's prime didn't last as long as Kareem's (assuming you don't count his Laker years as prime). And Kareem has a lot of extra outside the prime years as well. So, higher top end v. greater longevity. I have Wilt higher, but then I have Russell as GOAT so I don't penalize Wilt as much for not beating Russell and the Celtics as most people.

[coastalmarker99]

playoff series: 7-1: Russell's Celtics vs. Wilt's teams

20-1: Russell's Celtics vs. non-Wilt teams and it took Russell getting hurt in the 1958 finals for the Hawks to win that series.

17-4: Wilt's teams vs. non-Celtics

For as much hate as Wilt gets to this day for only winning two rings.

I'll just say that he anchored two of the greatest teams to ever play and was their leader.

The 1966-1967 Philadelphia 76ers, which went an absurd 68-13

And the 1971-1972 Los Angeles Lakers, which went 69-13, famously winning 33 games in a row.

Plus Wilt's teams over his career played 1045 season games + 160 playoff games.

They won 672 season + 88 playoff games.

Season win%: 64.3

Playoff win%: 55

Total games win%: 63.1

Plus, the only team to win more titles than his team's during his time, or have higher win%s during his time was the Celtics who were the dominant dynasty from the late 50s through the entire 60s.

Hypothetically had Russell been just as injury-pone as Walton who was Kareem's main rival at the center position.


Wilt's numbers and MVPs plus titles would have been out of this world.

As in his first nine seasons, he faced a Western Conference opponent in one series.

How did he do in that series?

In a seven-game series, Wilt put up a 38.6 ppg, 23.0 rpg, .55.9 series, which included games of 46 and 50 points.

Had Wilt gotten past Russell in years such as 1962 1965 1966 he would have gone up against teams such as the Lakers in the finals who he utterly owned.

[ty 4191]

Wilt was the superior player in his prime, though Kareem was certainly great as well. Wilt's prime didn't last as long as Kareem's (assuming you don't count his Laker years as prime). And Kareem has a lot of extra outside the prime years as well. So, higher top end v. greater longevity. I have Wilt higher, but then I have Russell as GOAT so I don't penalize Wilt as much for not beating Russell and the Celtics as most people.

Great post. I agree with all of it.

I don't think people realize just how impossible the Celtics were on defense in Wilt's prime. Look at the Celtics, relative to the league #2 defense and league average defense, compared to, say, the Spurs (second greatest long term Defensive Dynasty in NBA History):

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1DRXJdAr15iZmulqF0F_6SnxrB_b_PPFPM543ke30-qM/edit?usp=sharing

From 60'-66', in 104 contests, From Wilt averaged 33.3/28.8/3.7 in 104 games against the greatest defensive team of all time, by FAR, against the greatest defensive center, perhaps BY FAR, and against the best team of that entire timeframe, BY FAR.

FWIW, that was 10 games more than anyone else played against the Celtics, those years....

Once again....Kareem could never have done THAT.

[coastalmarker99]

I would love to see what Kareem's post-season career numbers would have been had he faced prime Thurmond and Wilt in 60% of his playoff games.


As for Wilt during his 98 playoff games from '60 thru '69 (before he shredded his knee)

He went up against Boston in 49 of them...or exactly half of his playoff games.

Oh, and he also faced Thurmond in 12 more in that same span.

So, a prime Wilt played in 61 of his 98 post-season games against two of the greatest defensive centers of all-time.

And he basically dominated them on both sides of the ball.





As for Kareem during his prime


He was getting brutally shut down by an old Nate in 1972 and 1973.

And an old Wilt also locked him up in 1971 and 1972.


I will give him credit through for just destroying Walton in 1977.

[ty 4191]

Wilt was the superior player in his prime, though Kareem was certainly great as well. Wilt's prime didn't last as long as Kareem's (assuming you don't count his Laker years as prime). And Kareem has a lot of extra outside the prime years as well. So, higher top end v. greater longevity. I have Wilt higher, but then I have Russell as GOAT so I don't penalize Wilt as much for not beating Russell and the Celtics as most people.

What would Wilt's numbers have looked like against the (relative) cupcake defensive teams Kareem played against?

Using 70s Fan's Exact Criteria, here we go:

Wilt vs. Elite + All Time Great Defenses:
45% of total playoff games played
47.2 MPG
25.0 PPG
26.6 RBG
3.5 AST/G
rTS%: +3.8%

Kareem vs. Elite + All Time Great Defenses:
13.9% of total playoff games played
42.1 MPG
29.4 PPG
14.2 RBG
3.8 AST/G
rTS%: +4.8%

[coastalmarker99]

I will say if you put Wilt and his teams in the west from 1960 to 1968.


He would have been putting up over 35 PPG series every single year.

As LA just couldn't match up with Wilt.

As Wilt' averaged staggering numbers against the Lakers in the decade of the 60's.

As overall, in those 86 games he played against them in that decade here were his numbers.

40 Point Games: 42

50 Point Games: 19

60 Point Games: 7

70 Point Games: 2

High game of 78 points.


The fun fact is that in Wilt's first nine seasons, he faced a Western Conference opponent in one series.

How did he do in that series?

In a seven-game series, Wilt put up a 38.6 ppg, 23.0 rpg, .55.9 series, which included games of 46 and 50 points.


For me, there is zero doubt that Wilt's playoff numbers would look even better had he been lucky enough to beat up on the weak west for 1 or two rounds before running into Boston in the finals.

[ty 4191]

For everyone's perusal:

Wilt, Kareem, Shaq, Thurmond, Russell vs. HOFers:

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1jE5K2XrILol56zGe0e7LA-bKyRECGNgG/edit?usp=sharing&ouid=111598856911501641110&rtpof=true&sd=true

[ProcessDoctor]

I mean the simple answer is Wilt is the better player, but Kareem has the greater legacy.

[Ginoboleee]

For everyone's perusal:

Wilt, Kareem, Shaq, Thurmond, Russell vs. HOFers:

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1jE5K2XrILol56zGe0e7LA-bKyRECGNgG/edit?usp=sharing&ouid=111598856911501641110&rtpof=true&sd=true

"That's Gold Jerry! Gold!"

[Ginoboleee]

I mean the simple answer is Wilt is the better player, but Kareem has the greater legacy.

And when you make a list of the Top/Greatest, which do you emphasize?
Better player (peak)?
Better career/legacy?

[ty 4191]

I mean the simple answer is Wilt is the better player, but Kareem has the greater legacy.

And when you make a list of the Top/Greatest, which do you emphasize?
Better player (peak)?
Better career/legacy?

Brother,
Kareem was a nasty, aloof, selfish guy who (overtly) hated white people. Read this; I finished it last summer.

https://www.amazon.com/Showtime-Kareem-Angeles-Lakers-Dynasty-ebook/dp/B00DGZKYIE/ref=sr_1_1?crid=JWMMPWOZK7P9&keywords=showtime+lakers&qid=1656641376&sprefix=showtime+lakers%2Caps%2C358&sr=8-1

Read this, and tell me Wilt wasn't a better person than Kareem. I also finished this last summer/fall:

https://www.amazon.com/Wilt-Larger-Than-Robert-Cherry-ebook/dp/B009N3585M/ref=sr_1_1?crid=3KTAQ0ARVKWNE&keywords=wilt+larger+than+life&qid=1656641444&sprefix=wilt+larger%2Caps%2C81&sr=8-1

Wilt's legacy is greater than Kareem's. Kareem had much better teammates and won more basketball championships.

Wilt was a far better person. That's legacy, to me.

[ProcessDoctor]

I mean the simple answer is Wilt is the better player, but Kareem has the greater legacy.

And when you make a list of the Top/Greatest, which do you emphasize?
Better player (peak)?
Better career/legacy?

I weigh legacy a bit more, but I also try to consider circumstances. This is def a fun discussion though. A lot of people who watched both play think Wilt > Kareem, but it’s hard to make a case for Wilt being greater than Kareem when you consider the latter’s championship and MVP counts.

[ty 4191]

Amazing video, here. A must watch!!!!!!

Watch on YouTube

[ty 4191]

I mean the simple answer is Wilt is the better player, but Kareem has the greater legacy.

And when you make a list of the Top/Greatest, which do you emphasize?
Better player (peak)?
Better career/legacy?

I weigh legacy a bit more, but I also try to consider circumstances. This is def a fun discussion though. A lot of people who watched both play think Wilt > Kareem, but it’s hard to make a case for Wilt being greater than Kareem when you consider the latter’s championship and MVP counts.

Championships is a fallacious/specious mode of argumentation and reasoning. Here's why:

Using team-based outcomes to inform an individual-level assessment seems a bit foolish, especially when taken to extremes.

The obvious counter argument is that its a team endeavor and team success is ultimately all that matters.

And it if leads certain posters to dismiss me as RINGZZZZZ guy so be it.

And here's my counter argument to your "RINGZZ" premise and stance:

Jordan didn't win anything until they built a Dynasty around him. Neither did Wilt, nor has Jokic.

Michael Jordan through age 27, Playoffs, before they built a Dynasty around him:

-Playoffs (53 games)
-Team Record: 24-29
-Team Series Record: 5-6
-3 first round exits, including 2 first round sweeps
-Two ECF

Jordan's line: 36.2/6.9/6.7 on +4.7% rTS. Led all players those years in all advanced and traditional metrics in the playoffs.

Nikola Jokic through age 26, Playoffs:

-Playoffs: (48 games)
-Team Record: 21-27
-Team Series Record: 4-4
-1 first round exit
-1 WCF

Jokic's line: 26.4/11.5/6.4 on +4.1 rTS%. Top 3 player in all advanced and traditional metrics in the playoffs.

Wilt Chamberlain through age 28, Playoffs:

-Playoffs: (47 games)
-Team Record: 21-26
-Team Series Record: 4-5
-Much shorter playoffs structure, so they're incompatible. Still:

Wilt's line: 33.4/26.0/3.2 on +4.7 tTS%. Clearly the MVP in the playoffs in all advanced and traditional metrics.

What did Michael Jordan win before they built a Superteam around him, while also bringing in the greatest coach of all time?

What did Wilt win, while he had coaches (that got fired or resigned every year or so) 1960-1965? What did he win before he got great coaches, teammates, ownership, management around him?

Or maybe, just maybe, it's not how great YOU are, but how great your teammates, coaches, management, ownership are?

(Also, it's hard to win MVP's when Bill Russell is on the best team, winning championships almost literally every year for your entire prime.)

It's also harder to win MVP's when you're playing against HOF Centers 70% of your games, vs. 30% for Kareem.

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1jE5K2XrILol56zGe0e7LA-bKyRECGNgG/edit#gid=367062482

[70sFan]

I want to point out that you're comparing 14 years of Wilt's career to 20 years of Kareem's career. In 1984-89 period, the Lakers faced usually a mediocre competition in the playoffs (both in terms of defense and overall quality), which deflates Kareem's competition numbers.

I still have Kareem higher on all-time list. It's true that Wilt faced tougher defenses on average in the playoffs, but Kareem (having a deeper postseason resume) faced just as many elite defenses in absolute terms and he usually dominated them. I think that Kareem was a bit more consistent in his prime and his longevity advantage is noticeable.

[LukaTheGOAT]

Kareem had a better career.

Kareem

RS Win Shares- 273.41

PS Win Shares-35.56

RS Total Points Added-8,148.03

PS Total Points Added-919.54

MVP Shares-6.105

Prime WOWYR (1970-1985)-6.2

10-Year Prime GPM-6.2



Wilt

RS Win Shares-247.26

PS Win Shares-31.46

RS Total Points Added-7,897.64

PS Total Points Added- 420.70

MVP Shares-4.152

Prime WOWYR (1960-1973)-6

10-Year Prime GPM-4.2

https://nbamath.com/nba-career-standings/

https://backpicks.com/tag/wowyr/

For all intents and purposes, in terms of career value accumulation, the metrics we have tend to certainly favor Kareem in terms of career value. They also certainly don't paint a clear picture of Wilt necessarily have a better peak. And Kareem's consistency in his prime, seem to show him as being more valuable prime for prime versus Wilt. In particular, those extra years outside of the heart of Kareem's prime are noteworthy. While Wilt retired while he was still around maybe a MVP level player, Kareem played until he was just another role player. Kareem in this way really gave all he had to the game, and to some people, that is really notable...the ideal legacy to some.

[MyUniBroDavis]

I mean the simple answer is Wilt is the better player, but Kareem has the greater legacy.

And when you make a list of the Top/Greatest, which do you emphasize?
Better player (peak)?
Better career/legacy?

Brother,
Kareem was a nasty, aloof, selfish guy who (overtly) hated white people. Read this; I finished it last summer.

https://www.amazon.com/Showtime-Kareem-Angeles-Lakers-Dynasty-ebook/dp/B00DGZKYIE/ref=sr_1_1?crid=JWMMPWOZK7P9&keywords=showtime+lakers&qid=1656641376&sprefix=showtime+lakers%2Caps%2C358&sr=8-1

Read this, and tell me Wilt wasn't a better person than Kareem. I also finished this last summer/fall:

https://www.amazon.com/Wilt-Larger-Than-Robert-Cherry-ebook/dp/B009N3585M/ref=sr_1_1?crid=3KTAQ0ARVKWNE&keywords=wilt+larger+than+life&qid=1656641444&sprefix=wilt+larger%2Caps%2C81&sr=8-1

Wilt's legacy is greater than Kareem's. Kareem had much better teammates and won more basketball championships.

Wilt was a far better person. That's legacy, to me.

Isn’t Kareem like one of the top basketball activists ever lmao