Leaguewide Offseason Transactions Discussion

[spree8]

Charlotte will either tank or look for a PF replacement… Randle

Kind of difficult to make a deal with them. Who would be coming back?

Wake up Leon!

[mpharris36]

If 17 mill is a ridiculous overpay for Lu Dort, then it's a ridiculous overpay for RJ.

They're in the same class of players, and that might be generous to RJ, since Dort is at least a good defender.

I knew you were going to say that. I believe Dort has played with two high level shot creaters with SGA/Giddey. He doesn't do most of his scoring on ball.

And I'm not paying RJ for what he's done I'm paying for him for what he can become. See you don't seem to understand that I agree RJ has been inefficient (that can't be argued). I also believe he has been put in a horrible position in terms of roster construction.

I believe much more in RJs shot creation ability (as a secondary shot creator) going forward. I am hoping since this is the first year RJ is going to play with an actual decent shot creator in Brunson we should see an uptick in EFF

Every team that's out of the playoff picture inevitably has poor roster construction. RJ plays a part in that - so does any player who qualifies as a net negative statistically speaking (Randle did last year too, obviously).

I honestly don't know what inspires you to have faith in RJ as a secondary.

We used to have those conversations about KP too, and it never happened for him in Dallas next to arguably the best playmaker in the NBA. And KP wasn't nearly as inefficient as a shot creator as RJ has been. Turns out, KP is better suited as a floor spacing 5. The evidence is overwhelming.

The only shot RJ is good at is wide-open C&S 3s. These shots are what salvage his efficiency from hilariously, Elfrid-level bad and keep it in the merely horrible but not completely absurd bottom-of-the-league range. His C&S ability is a valuable skill, so I'm not diminishing that, but it's more a role player quality. He's awful at basically every other shot. He's not efficient at pulling up. He's not efficient from the midrange. He's not efficient as the PNR ball-handler. He's not efficient in isolation, though he's improved to the 43rd percentile this year. These are trackable statistics. The pattern is unmistakable.

RJ's perceived upside as a shot creator rests upon nothing other than his draft position as a #3 overall pick, and the hopes that were placed upon him when he got drafted. Knicks fans are being deceived by their own expectations.

He should be (or have been) developed as a role player and judged on his open 3-point shooting (which is erratic) and his defense (which is completely underwhelming).

Because I value someone that has a knack for getting into the paint and getting to the FT line. I do see upside in someone ability to get to the paint and the FT line. Being 17th in the league in FTA per game. And 39th in the league in FTr (most big man dominate that category because they are taking most of there shots in the paint) as a 21 year old. For perspective some of non-big man that are high on FTr are (Giannis, Harden, Trae Young, Derozan, Luka, Dinwiddie). Outside of that no other perimeter player had a higher FTr.

Now, I agree he needs to convert that at a higher clip. But if he can get that FT% in the high 70's.

Also he is a career 35.7% 3 point shooter. Last year the league avg was 35.4% and RJ shot the most off the dribble 3's he ever has. So I do expect a bit of a jump there as well.

Factor in I do believe he is a tireless worker (which I don't know if someone like KP is). I am more bullish on RJ's potential and yes I know his athletic limits might ever keep him from being above avg at the rim. But if he continues to find ways to get the FT line that hopefully will mitigate some of those concerns...also playing with a modern offense instead of Thibs bullsh*t system might help as well.

[god shammgod]

I knew you were going to say that. I believe Dort has played with two high level shot creaters with SGA/Giddey. He doesn't do most of his scoring on ball.

And I'm not paying RJ for what he's done I'm paying for him for what he can become. See you don't seem to understand that I agree RJ has been inefficient (that can't be argued). I also believe he has been put in a horrible position in terms of roster construction.

I believe much more in RJs shot creation ability (as a secondary shot creator) going forward. I am hoping since this is the first year RJ is going to play with an actual decent shot creator in Brunson we should see an uptick in EFF

Every team that's out of the playoff picture inevitably has poor roster construction. RJ plays a part in that - so does any player who qualifies as a net negative statistically speaking (Randle did last year too, obviously).

I honestly don't know what inspires you to have faith in RJ as a secondary.

We used to have those conversations about KP too, and it never happened for him in Dallas next to arguably the best playmaker in the NBA. And KP wasn't nearly as inefficient as a shot creator as RJ has been. Turns out, KP is better suited as a floor spacing 5. The evidence is overwhelming.

The only shot RJ is good at is wide-open C&S 3s. These shots are what salvage his efficiency from hilariously, Elfrid-level bad and keep it in the merely horrible but not completely absurd bottom-of-the-league range. His C&S ability is a valuable skill, so I'm not diminishing that, but it's more a role player quality. He's awful at basically every other shot. He's not efficient at pulling up. He's not efficient from the midrange. He's not efficient as the PNR ball-handler. He's not efficient in isolation, though he's improved to the 43rd percentile this year. These are trackable statistics. The pattern is unmistakable.

RJ's perceived upside as a shot creator rests upon nothing other than his draft position as a #3 overall pick, and the hopes that were placed upon him when he got drafted. Knicks fans are being deceived by their own expectations.

He should be (or have been) developed as a role player and judged on his open 3-point shooting (which is erratic) and his defense (which is completely underwhelming).

Because I value someone that has a knack for getting into the paint and getting to the FT line. I do see upside in someone ability to get to the paint and the FT line. Being 17th in the league in FTA per game. And 39th in the league in FTr (most big man dominate that category because they are taking most of there shots in the paint) as a 21 year old. For perspective some of non-big man that are high on FTr are (Giannis, Harden, Trae Young, Derozan, Luka, Dinwiddie). Outside of that no other perimeter player had a higher FTr.

Now, I agree he needs to convert that at a higher clip. But if he can get that FT% in the high 70's.

Also he is a career 35.7% 3 point shooter. Last year the league avg was 35.4% and RJ shot the most off the dribble 3's he ever has. So I do expect a bit of a jump there as well.

Factor in I do believe he is a tireless worker (which I don't know if someone like KP is). I am more bullish on RJ's potential and yes I know his athletic limits might ever keep him from being above avg at the rim. But if he continues to find ways to get the FT line that hopefully will mitigate some of those concerns...also playing with a modern offense instead of Thibs bullsh*t system might help as well.

if you look at rj and say, with hard work he can become a good quality rotation player that's cool. but the fanbase and organization treats him like a future star. you put him on any good team in the league and he's getting 10 to 12 shots a game at most. and he might be lucky to get that.

[Chanel Bomber]

I knew you were going to say that. I believe Dort has played with two high level shot creaters with SGA/Giddey. He doesn't do most of his scoring on ball.

And I'm not paying RJ for what he's done I'm paying for him for what he can become. See you don't seem to understand that I agree RJ has been inefficient (that can't be argued). I also believe he has been put in a horrible position in terms of roster construction.

I believe much more in RJs shot creation ability (as a secondary shot creator) going forward. I am hoping since this is the first year RJ is going to play with an actual decent shot creator in Brunson we should see an uptick in EFF

Every team that's out of the playoff picture inevitably has poor roster construction. RJ plays a part in that - so does any player who qualifies as a net negative statistically speaking (Randle did last year too, obviously).

I honestly don't know what inspires you to have faith in RJ as a secondary.

We used to have those conversations about KP too, and it never happened for him in Dallas next to arguably the best playmaker in the NBA. And KP wasn't nearly as inefficient as a shot creator as RJ has been. Turns out, KP is better suited as a floor spacing 5. The evidence is overwhelming.

The only shot RJ is good at is wide-open C&S 3s. These shots are what salvage his efficiency from hilariously, Elfrid-level bad and keep it in the merely horrible but not completely absurd bottom-of-the-league range. His C&S ability is a valuable skill, so I'm not diminishing that, but it's more a role player quality. He's awful at basically every other shot. He's not efficient at pulling up. He's not efficient from the midrange. He's not efficient as the PNR ball-handler. He's not efficient in isolation, though he's improved to the 43rd percentile this year. These are trackable statistics. The pattern is unmistakable.

RJ's perceived upside as a shot creator rests upon nothing other than his draft position as a #3 overall pick, and the hopes that were placed upon him when he got drafted. Knicks fans are being deceived by their own expectations.

He should be (or have been) developed as a role player and judged on his open 3-point shooting (which is erratic) and his defense (which is completely underwhelming).

Because I value someone that has a knack for getting into the paint and getting to the FT line. I do see upside in someone ability to get to the paint and the FT line. Being 17th in the league in FTA per game. And 39th in the league in FTr (most big man dominate that category because they are taking most of there shots in the paint) as a 21 year old. For perspective some of non-big man that are high on FTr are (Giannis, Harden, Trae Young, Derozan, Luka, Dinwiddie). Outside of that no other perimeter player had a higher FTr.

Now, I agree he needs to convert that at a higher clip. But if he can get that FT% in the high 70's.

Also he is a career 35.7% 3 point shooter. Last year the league avg was 35.4% and RJ shot the most off the dribble 3's he ever has. So I do expect a bit of a jump there as well.

Factor in I do believe he is a tireless worker (which I don't know if someone like KP is). I am more bullish on RJ's potential and yes I know his athletic limits might ever keep him from being above avg at the rim. But if he continues to find ways to get the FT line that hopefully will mitigate some of those concerns...also playing with a modern offense instead of Thibs bullsh*t system might help as well.

He has a knack for getting into the paint but at what cost? How many failed drives, bad finishes, and forced passes to get to this outcome? The volume of possessions that it takes him to reach those per game averages is immense, which is why you can't just look at FTAs a game in a vacuum and conclude that he's great a going to the line. You're ignoring all the waste that comes along with it to focus on the raw volume outcome.

Think of all the "ifs" that are in your post. Your optimism rests mainly upon wishful thinking. If he does this, if he does that. Meanwhile he hasn't shown any of it. You don't pay a player north of $100 million when they haven't proven to be worth it. It's how you sign players to albatross contracts. Which goes back to my point - if Lu Dort is ridiculously overpaid at $17 million a year, then so is RJ. Anything more than $10-12 million a year would be an overpay.

RJ doesn't have the skill set of a star. If he works on his defense and on his shot, he could become a valuable role player, à la KCP but with a bit more playmaking. That's how he should be developed, and how he should be paid.

[mpharris36]

Every team that's out of the playoff picture inevitably has poor roster construction. RJ plays a part in that - so does any player who qualifies as a net negative statistically speaking (Randle did last year too, obviously).

I honestly don't know what inspires you to have faith in RJ as a secondary.

We used to have those conversations about KP too, and it never happened for him in Dallas next to arguably the best playmaker in the NBA. And KP wasn't nearly as inefficient as a shot creator as RJ has been. Turns out, KP is better suited as a floor spacing 5. The evidence is overwhelming.

The only shot RJ is good at is wide-open C&S 3s. These shots are what salvage his efficiency from hilariously, Elfrid-level bad and keep it in the merely horrible but not completely absurd bottom-of-the-league range. His C&S ability is a valuable skill, so I'm not diminishing that, but it's more a role player quality. He's awful at basically every other shot. He's not efficient at pulling up. He's not efficient from the midrange. He's not efficient as the PNR ball-handler. He's not efficient in isolation, though he's improved to the 43rd percentile this year. These are trackable statistics. The pattern is unmistakable.

RJ's perceived upside as a shot creator rests upon nothing other than his draft position as a #3 overall pick, and the hopes that were placed upon him when he got drafted. Knicks fans are being deceived by their own expectations.

He should be (or have been) developed as a role player and judged on his open 3-point shooting (which is erratic) and his defense (which is completely underwhelming).

Because I value someone that has a knack for getting into the paint and getting to the FT line. I do see upside in someone ability to get to the paint and the FT line. Being 17th in the league in FTA per game. And 39th in the league in FTr (most big man dominate that category because they are taking most of there shots in the paint) as a 21 year old. For perspective some of non-big man that are high on FTr are (Giannis, Harden, Trae Young, Derozan, Luka, Dinwiddie). Outside of that no other perimeter player had a higher FTr.

Now, I agree he needs to convert that at a higher clip. But if he can get that FT% in the high 70's.

Also he is a career 35.7% 3 point shooter. Last year the league avg was 35.4% and RJ shot the most off the dribble 3's he ever has. So I do expect a bit of a jump there as well.

Factor in I do believe he is a tireless worker (which I don't know if someone like KP is). I am more bullish on RJ's potential and yes I know his athletic limits might ever keep him from being above avg at the rim. But if he continues to find ways to get the FT line that hopefully will mitigate some of those concerns...also playing with a modern offense instead of Thibs bullsh*t system might help as well.

if you look at rj and say, with hard work he can become a good quality rotation player that's cool. but the fanbase and organization treats him like a future star. you put him on any good team in the league and he's getting 10 to 12 shots a game at most. and he might be lucky to get that.

I'm not even saying he is going to be an all-star. I think the term "rotational" player gets throw around too easily. There are varying degrees of role players. There are a lot of players in the NBA that are 2nd or 3rd best players on good teams that could never win anything with stars.

Jrue Holiday was a career 52% TS% guy until he got to milwaukee now magically in his 30's he is a 60% TS% guy? I know crazy thought but playing with Giannis greatly improved his play. Now Jrue is also an elite defender. So I get that but I'm strictly speaking EFF right now since that is all Channel really cares about.

[Chanel Bomber]

Because I value someone that has a knack for getting into the paint and getting to the FT line. I do see upside in someone ability to get to the paint and the FT line. Being 17th in the league in FTA per game. And 39th in the league in FTr (most big man dominate that category because they are taking most of there shots in the paint) as a 21 year old. For perspective some of non-big man that are high on FTr are (Giannis, Harden, Trae Young, Derozan, Luka, Dinwiddie). Outside of that no other perimeter player had a higher FTr.

Now, I agree he needs to convert that at a higher clip. But if he can get that FT% in the high 70's.

Also he is a career 35.7% 3 point shooter. Last year the league avg was 35.4% and RJ shot the most off the dribble 3's he ever has. So I do expect a bit of a jump there as well.

Factor in I do believe he is a tireless worker (which I don't know if someone like KP is). I am more bullish on RJ's potential and yes I know his athletic limits might ever keep him from being above avg at the rim. But if he continues to find ways to get the FT line that hopefully will mitigate some of those concerns...also playing with a modern offense instead of Thibs bullsh*t system might help as well.

if you look at rj and say, with hard work he can become a good quality rotation player that's cool. but the fanbase and organization treats him like a future star. you put him on any good team in the league and he's getting 10 to 12 shots a game at most. and he might be lucky to get that.

I'm not even saying he is going to be an all-star. I think the term "rotational" player gets throw around too easily. There are varying degrees of role players. There are a lot of players in the NBA that are 2nd or 3rd best players on good teams that could never win anything with stars.

Jrue Holiday was a career 52% TS% guy until he got to milwaukee now magically in his 30's he is a 60% TS% guy? I know crazy thought but playing with Giannis greatly improved his play. Now Jrue is also an elite defender. So I get that but I'm strictly speaking EFF right now since that is all Channel really cares about.

I have said in debates with Deeez that RJ could become Jrue Holiday without the defense or the point guard play.

Do you pay a guy who might one day in the distant future become Jrue without the elite defense $100+ million?

Jrue's league-adjusted TS never fell as low as RJ did this past season (a glorious 90+) by the way.

It's not true that I only care about scoring. But that's all RJ seems interested in, since he doesn't (barely) pass, and doesn't play team defense.

[mpharris36]

Every team that's out of the playoff picture inevitably has poor roster construction. RJ plays a part in that - so does any player who qualifies as a net negative statistically speaking (Randle did last year too, obviously).

I honestly don't know what inspires you to have faith in RJ as a secondary.

We used to have those conversations about KP too, and it never happened for him in Dallas next to arguably the best playmaker in the NBA. And KP wasn't nearly as inefficient as a shot creator as RJ has been. Turns out, KP is better suited as a floor spacing 5. The evidence is overwhelming.

The only shot RJ is good at is wide-open C&S 3s. These shots are what salvage his efficiency from hilariously, Elfrid-level bad and keep it in the merely horrible but not completely absurd bottom-of-the-league range. His C&S ability is a valuable skill, so I'm not diminishing that, but it's more a role player quality. He's awful at basically every other shot. He's not efficient at pulling up. He's not efficient from the midrange. He's not efficient as the PNR ball-handler. He's not efficient in isolation, though he's improved to the 43rd percentile this year. These are trackable statistics. The pattern is unmistakable.

RJ's perceived upside as a shot creator rests upon nothing other than his draft position as a #3 overall pick, and the hopes that were placed upon him when he got drafted. Knicks fans are being deceived by their own expectations.

He should be (or have been) developed as a role player and judged on his open 3-point shooting (which is erratic) and his defense (which is completely underwhelming).

Because I value someone that has a knack for getting into the paint and getting to the FT line. I do see upside in someone ability to get to the paint and the FT line. Being 17th in the league in FTA per game. And 39th in the league in FTr (most big man dominate that category because they are taking most of there shots in the paint) as a 21 year old. For perspective some of non-big man that are high on FTr are (Giannis, Harden, Trae Young, Derozan, Luka, Dinwiddie). Outside of that no other perimeter player had a higher FTr.

Now, I agree he needs to convert that at a higher clip. But if he can get that FT% in the high 70's.

Also he is a career 35.7% 3 point shooter. Last year the league avg was 35.4% and RJ shot the most off the dribble 3's he ever has. So I do expect a bit of a jump there as well.

Factor in I do believe he is a tireless worker (which I don't know if someone like KP is). I am more bullish on RJ's potential and yes I know his athletic limits might ever keep him from being above avg at the rim. But if he continues to find ways to get the FT line that hopefully will mitigate some of those concerns...also playing with a modern offense instead of Thibs bullsh*t system might help as well.

He has a knack for getting into the paint but at what cost? How many failed drives, bad finishes, and forced passes to get to this outcome? The volume of possessions that it takes him to reach those per game averages is immense, which is why you can't just look at FTAs a game in a vacuum and conclude that he's great a going to the line. You're ignoring all the waste that comes along with it to focus on the raw volume outcome.

Think of all the "ifs" that are in your post. Your optimism rests mainly upon wishful thinking. If he does this, if he does that. Meanwhile he hasn't shown any of it. You don't pay a player north of $100 million when they haven't proven to be worth it. It's how you sign players to albatross contracts. Which goes back to my point - if Lu Dort is ridiculously overpaid at $17 million a year, then so is RJ. Anything more than $10-12 million a year would be an overpay.

RJ doesn't have the skill set of a star. If he works on his defense and on his shot, he could become a valuable role player, à la KCP but with a bit more playmaking. That's how he should be developed, and how he should be paid.

Again you are moving the goal posts...no one is saying he is a star or even needs to be a star. And its tough to take your argument seriously when you say a name like KCP who never has even hit 15ppg before and never been tasked with any level of shot creation on a team in his career.

And your ignore that for this 1st two years of his career he started alongside Elfrid Payton...and for his entire career he has played alongside Randle and a center that can't shoot either.

So again. Is that simply just RJ or simply the knicks haven't played in a modern offense with modern spacing. Do you think its by dumb luck the Bucks don't but not shooting players next to Giannis? Again I'm not even remotely comparing the two. I'm simply talking about roster contruction. Why do they value bigs that can shoot? Why do they value complimentary players that can shoot. So Giannis has easier decisions to make when he drives. Why does dallas put shooters around Luka.

They even tried to improve the spacing this year with Kemba/Fournier but it backfired so much because it was such a disaster defensively. You will say RJ is part of that problem but you even admitted that the only EFF part of RJ's game is hitting open 3's...so is he hurting the spacing or is it the other guys?

[Fury]

Because I value someone that has a knack for getting into the paint and getting to the FT line. I do see upside in someone ability to get to the paint and the FT line. Being 17th in the league in FTA per game. And 39th in the league in FTr (most big man dominate that category because they are taking most of there shots in the paint) as a 21 year old. For perspective some of non-big man that are high on FTr are (Giannis, Harden, Trae Young, Derozan, Luka, Dinwiddie). Outside of that no other perimeter player had a higher FTr.

Now, I agree he needs to convert that at a higher clip. But if he can get that FT% in the high 70's.

Also he is a career 35.7% 3 point shooter. Last year the league avg was 35.4% and RJ shot the most off the dribble 3's he ever has. So I do expect a bit of a jump there as well.

Factor in I do believe he is a tireless worker (which I don't know if someone like KP is). I am more bullish on RJ's potential and yes I know his athletic limits might ever keep him from being above avg at the rim. But if he continues to find ways to get the FT line that hopefully will mitigate some of those concerns...also playing with a modern offense instead of Thibs bullsh*t system might help as well.

He has a knack for getting into the paint but at what cost? How many failed drives, bad finishes, and forced passes to get to this outcome? The volume of possessions that it takes him to reach those per game averages is immense, which is why you can't just look at FTAs a game in a vacuum and conclude that he's great a going to the line. You're ignoring all the waste that comes along with it to focus on the raw volume outcome.

Think of all the "ifs" that are in your post. Your optimism rests mainly upon wishful thinking. If he does this, if he does that. Meanwhile he hasn't shown any of it. You don't pay a player north of $100 million when they haven't proven to be worth it. It's how you sign players to albatross contracts. Which goes back to my point - if Lu Dort is ridiculously overpaid at $17 million a year, then so is RJ. Anything more than $10-12 million a year would be an overpay.

RJ doesn't have the skill set of a star. If he works on his defense and on his shot, he could become a valuable role player, à la KCP but with a bit more playmaking. That's how he should be developed, and how he should be paid.

Again you are moving the goal posts...no one is saying he is a star or even needs to be a star. And its tough to take your argument seriously when you say a name like KCP who never has even hit 15ppg before and never been tasked with any level of shot creation on a team in his career.

And your ignore that for this 1st two years of his career he started alongside Elfrid Payton...and for his entire career he has played alongside Randle and a center that can't shoot either.

So again. Is that simply just RJ or simply the knicks haven't played in a modern offense with modern spacing. Do you think its by dumb luck the Bucks don't but not shooting players next to Giannis? Again I'm not even remotely comparing the two. I'm simply talking about roster contruction. Why do they value bigs that can shoot? Why do they value complimentary players that can shoot. So Giannis has easier decisions to make when he drives. Why does dallas put shooters around Luka.

They even tried to improve the spacing this year with Kemba/Fournier but it backfired so much because it was such a disaster defensively. You will say RJ is part of that problem but you even admitted that the only EFF part of RJ's game is hitting open 3's...so is he hurting the spacing or is it the other guys?

Does anyone have RJ’s numbers with Derrick Rose?

[mpharris36]

if you look at rj and say, with hard work he can become a good quality rotation player that's cool. but the fanbase and organization treats him like a future star. you put him on any good team in the league and he's getting 10 to 12 shots a game at most. and he might be lucky to get that.

I'm not even saying he is going to be an all-star. I think the term "rotational" player gets throw around too easily. There are varying degrees of role players. There are a lot of players in the NBA that are 2nd or 3rd best players on good teams that could never win anything with stars.

Jrue Holiday was a career 52% TS% guy until he got to milwaukee now magically in his 30's he is a 60% TS% guy? I know crazy thought but playing with Giannis greatly improved his play. Now Jrue is also an elite defender. So I get that but I'm strictly speaking EFF right now since that is all Channel really cares about.

I have said in debates with Deeez that RJ could become Jrue Holiday without the defense or the point guard play.

Do you pay a guy who might one day in the distant future become Jrue without the elite defense $100+ million?

Jrue's league-adjusted TS never fell as low as RJ did this past season (a glorious 90+) by the way.

It's not true that I only care about scoring. But that's all RJ seems interested in, since he doesn't (barely) pass, and doesn't play team defense.

If that was the case why would Thibs who is lauded for his defensive coaching...always stick RJ on the teams best perimeter player? Trying to be a good defender next to Kemba/Fournier and Randle loafing it all year. Yeah you can get into bad habbits.

https://dailyknicks.com/2021/12/06/ny-knicks-worse-without-rj-barrett-defense/

also RJ's defense was pretty good prior to COVID. Not making that as lone excuse but when he came back he was a total different defender. I don't know if he then just focused his energy on offense but in the beginning part of the year he was an impactful defender.

[mpharris36]

He has a knack for getting into the paint but at what cost? How many failed drives, bad finishes, and forced passes to get to this outcome? The volume of possessions that it takes him to reach those per game averages is immense, which is why you can't just look at FTAs a game in a vacuum and conclude that he's great a going to the line. You're ignoring all the waste that comes along with it to focus on the raw volume outcome.

Think of all the "ifs" that are in your post. Your optimism rests mainly upon wishful thinking. If he does this, if he does that. Meanwhile he hasn't shown any of it. You don't pay a player north of $100 million when they haven't proven to be worth it. It's how you sign players to albatross contracts. Which goes back to my point - if Lu Dort is ridiculously overpaid at $17 million a year, then so is RJ. Anything more than $10-12 million a year would be an overpay.

RJ doesn't have the skill set of a star. If he works on his defense and on his shot, he could become a valuable role player, à la KCP but with a bit more playmaking. That's how he should be developed, and how he should be paid.

Again you are moving the goal posts...no one is saying he is a star or even needs to be a star. And its tough to take your argument seriously when you say a name like KCP who never has even hit 15ppg before and never been tasked with any level of shot creation on a team in his career.

And your ignore that for this 1st two years of his career he started alongside Elfrid Payton...and for his entire career he has played alongside Randle and a center that can't shoot either.

So again. Is that simply just RJ or simply the knicks haven't played in a modern offense with modern spacing. Do you think its by dumb luck the Bucks don't but not shooting players next to Giannis? Again I'm not even remotely comparing the two. I'm simply talking about roster contruction. Why do they value bigs that can shoot? Why do they value complimentary players that can shoot. So Giannis has easier decisions to make when he drives. Why does dallas put shooters around Luka.

They even tried to improve the spacing this year with Kemba/Fournier but it backfired so much because it was such a disaster defensively. You will say RJ is part of that problem but you even admitted that the only EFF part of RJ's game is hitting open 3's...so is he hurting the spacing or is it the other guys?

Does anyone have RJ’s numbers with Derrick Rose?

https://www.statmuse.com/nba/ask/rj-barrett-stats-with-derrick-rose

[Fury]

Again you are moving the goal posts...no one is saying he is a star or even needs to be a star. And its tough to take your argument seriously when you say a name like KCP who never has even hit 15ppg before and never been tasked with any level of shot creation on a team in his career.

And your ignore that for this 1st two years of his career he started alongside Elfrid Payton...and for his entire career he has played alongside Randle and a center that can't shoot either.

So again. Is that simply just RJ or simply the knicks haven't played in a modern offense with modern spacing. Do you think its by dumb luck the Bucks don't but not shooting players next to Giannis? Again I'm not even remotely comparing the two. I'm simply talking about roster contruction. Why do they value bigs that can shoot? Why do they value complimentary players that can shoot. So Giannis has easier decisions to make when he drives. Why does dallas put shooters around Luka.

They even tried to improve the spacing this year with Kemba/Fournier but it backfired so much because it was such a disaster defensively. You will say RJ is part of that problem but you even admitted that the only EFF part of RJ's game is hitting open 3's...so is he hurting the spacing or is it the other guys?

Does anyone have RJ’s numbers with Derrick Rose?

https://www.statmuse.com/nba/ask/rj-barrett-stats-with-derrick-rose

Thanks. As efficient as Burks is, I don’t think he draws as much to allow better shooting like Rose. Barrett should have similar (like with Rose) and most likely better numbers with Brunson.

[nykballa2k4]

Because I value someone that has a knack for getting into the paint and getting to the FT line. I do see upside in someone ability to get to the paint and the FT line. Being 17th in the league in FTA per game. And 39th in the league in FTr (most big man dominate that category because they are taking most of there shots in the paint) as a 21 year old. For perspective some of non-big man that are high on FTr are (Giannis, Harden, Trae Young, Derozan, Luka, Dinwiddie). Outside of that no other perimeter player had a higher FTr.

Now, I agree he needs to convert that at a higher clip. But if he can get that FT% in the high 70's.

Also he is a career 35.7% 3 point shooter. Last year the league avg was 35.4% and RJ shot the most off the dribble 3's he ever has. So I do expect a bit of a jump there as well.

Factor in I do believe he is a tireless worker (which I don't know if someone like KP is). I am more bullish on RJ's potential and yes I know his athletic limits might ever keep him from being above avg at the rim. But if he continues to find ways to get the FT line that hopefully will mitigate some of those concerns...also playing with a modern offense instead of Thibs bullsh*t system might help as well.

if you look at rj and say, with hard work he can become a good quality rotation player that's cool. but the fanbase and organization treats him like a future star. you put him on any good team in the league and he's getting 10 to 12 shots a game at most. and he might be lucky to get that.

I'm not even saying he is going to be an all-star. I think the term "rotational" player gets throw around too easily. There are varying degrees of role players. There are a lot of players in the NBA that are 2nd or 3rd best players on good teams that could never win anything with stars.

Jrue Holiday was a career 52% TS% guy until he got to milwaukee now magically in his 30's he is a 60% TS% guy? I know crazy thought but playing with Giannis greatly improved his play. Now Jrue is also an elite defender. So I get that but I'm strictly speaking EFF right now since that is all Channel really cares about.

People used to compare RJ to Pierce, RJ is averaging 20ppg as a 21 year old, his 3rd year. Pierce averaged 19.5 in his 2nd year at 22 and took a leap to that 25ppg his 3rd year at 23. Long walk to a fun fact, his teammate year three: Rick Brunson.

[Chanel Bomber]

Because I value someone that has a knack for getting into the paint and getting to the FT line. I do see upside in someone ability to get to the paint and the FT line. Being 17th in the league in FTA per game. And 39th in the league in FTr (most big man dominate that category because they are taking most of there shots in the paint) as a 21 year old. For perspective some of non-big man that are high on FTr are (Giannis, Harden, Trae Young, Derozan, Luka, Dinwiddie). Outside of that no other perimeter player had a higher FTr.

Now, I agree he needs to convert that at a higher clip. But if he can get that FT% in the high 70's.

Also he is a career 35.7% 3 point shooter. Last year the league avg was 35.4% and RJ shot the most off the dribble 3's he ever has. So I do expect a bit of a jump there as well.

Factor in I do believe he is a tireless worker (which I don't know if someone like KP is). I am more bullish on RJ's potential and yes I know his athletic limits might ever keep him from being above avg at the rim. But if he continues to find ways to get the FT line that hopefully will mitigate some of those concerns...also playing with a modern offense instead of Thibs bullsh*t system might help as well.

He has a knack for getting into the paint but at what cost? How many failed drives, bad finishes, and forced passes to get to this outcome? The volume of possessions that it takes him to reach those per game averages is immense, which is why you can't just look at FTAs a game in a vacuum and conclude that he's great a going to the line. You're ignoring all the waste that comes along with it to focus on the raw volume outcome.

Think of all the "ifs" that are in your post. Your optimism rests mainly upon wishful thinking. If he does this, if he does that. Meanwhile he hasn't shown any of it. You don't pay a player north of $100 million when they haven't proven to be worth it. It's how you sign players to albatross contracts. Which goes back to my point - if Lu Dort is ridiculously overpaid at $17 million a year, then so is RJ. Anything more than $10-12 million a year would be an overpay.

RJ doesn't have the skill set of a star. If he works on his defense and on his shot, he could become a valuable role player, à la KCP but with a bit more playmaking. That's how he should be developed, and how he should be paid.

Again you are moving the goal posts...no one is saying he is a star or even needs to be a star. And its tough to take your argument seriously when you say a name like KCP who never has even hit 15ppg before and never been tasked with any level of shot creation on a team in his career.

And your ignore that for this 1st two years of his career he started alongside Elfrid Payton...and for his entire career he has played alongside Randle and a center that can't shoot either.

So again. Is that simply just RJ or simply the knicks haven't played in a modern offense with modern spacing. Do you think its by dumb luck the Bucks don't but not shooting players next to Giannis? Again I'm not even remotely comparing the two. I'm simply talking about roster contruction. Why do they value bigs that can shoot? Why do they value complimentary players that can shoot. So Giannis has easier decisions to make when he drives. Why does dallas put shooters around Luka.

They even tried to improve the spacing this year with Kemba/Fournier but it backfired so much because it was such a disaster defensively. You will say RJ is part of that problem but you even admitted that the only EFF part of RJ's game is hitting open 3's...so is he hurting the spacing or is it the other guys?

KCP never hit 20ppg because he was never allowed by an organization to chuck as much as he wanted regardless of whether or not he met the threshold of respectability in terms of efficiency. Almost every NBA player can average 20ppg if you give him an unlimited amount of opportunities.

I'm not moving the goal posts. You said you viewed RJ as a secondary shot creator down the line, which is essentially a star.

You mention Payton. RJ sucked OFFENSIVELY with Kemba and Burks too, and both guys are good/elite 3-point shooters. So was it all on Payton? Or was it RJ too?

But I get it, if you move all your resources towards bringing in floor spacers 1-through-5 just to tailor a team around RJ, he might improve a little bit as a shot creator. And where does that leave you? Absolutely nowhere, because he still won't be good enough as a shot creator, let alone as a playmaker. Meanwhile, you've spent a tangible of resources to bring a stretch 4 and a stretch 5 (those don't exactly grow on trees) to accommodate a player who's not worth building around, when you could've spent those resources to bring in a proper shot creator.

RJ doesn't hurt the spacing if he's used strictly as a wide-open C&S guy. But any semblance of a contest and it's a brick. He was the worst shooter from the corners in the entire NBA, by the way.

Again, you're deflecting the blame to protect these young players when they're simply not as good as you want them to be. They contribute to our suckitude as much as if not more than the players around them.

[mpharris36]

Does anyone have RJ’s numbers with Derrick Rose?

https://www.statmuse.com/nba/ask/rj-barrett-stats-with-derrick-rose

Thanks. As efficient as Burks is, I don’t think he draws as much to allow better shooting like Rose. Barrett should have similar (like with Rose) and most likely better numbers with Brunson.

Yes, I wouldn't call Brunson an elite level playmaker but he alone should do wonders for RJ. He becomes the best playmaker RJ has ever played with.

[mpharris36]

He has a knack for getting into the paint but at what cost? How many failed drives, bad finishes, and forced passes to get to this outcome? The volume of possessions that it takes him to reach those per game averages is immense, which is why you can't just look at FTAs a game in a vacuum and conclude that he's great a going to the line. You're ignoring all the waste that comes along with it to focus on the raw volume outcome.

Think of all the "ifs" that are in your post. Your optimism rests mainly upon wishful thinking. If he does this, if he does that. Meanwhile he hasn't shown any of it. You don't pay a player north of $100 million when they haven't proven to be worth it. It's how you sign players to albatross contracts. Which goes back to my point - if Lu Dort is ridiculously overpaid at $17 million a year, then so is RJ. Anything more than $10-12 million a year would be an overpay.

RJ doesn't have the skill set of a star. If he works on his defense and on his shot, he could become a valuable role player, à la KCP but with a bit more playmaking. That's how he should be developed, and how he should be paid.

Again you are moving the goal posts...no one is saying he is a star or even needs to be a star. And its tough to take your argument seriously when you say a name like KCP who never has even hit 15ppg before and never been tasked with any level of shot creation on a team in his career.

And your ignore that for this 1st two years of his career he started alongside Elfrid Payton...and for his entire career he has played alongside Randle and a center that can't shoot either.

So again. Is that simply just RJ or simply the knicks haven't played in a modern offense with modern spacing. Do you think its by dumb luck the Bucks don't but not shooting players next to Giannis? Again I'm not even remotely comparing the two. I'm simply talking about roster contruction. Why do they value bigs that can shoot? Why do they value complimentary players that can shoot. So Giannis has easier decisions to make when he drives. Why does dallas put shooters around Luka.

They even tried to improve the spacing this year with Kemba/Fournier but it backfired so much because it was such a disaster defensively. You will say RJ is part of that problem but you even admitted that the only EFF part of RJ's game is hitting open 3's...so is he hurting the spacing or is it the other guys?

KCP never hit 20ppg because he was never allowed by an organization to chuck as much as he wanted regardless of whether or not he met the threshold of respectability in terms of efficiency. Almost every NBA player can average 20ppg if you give him an unlimited amount of opportunities.

I'm not moving the goal posts. You said you viewed RJ as a secondary shot creator down the line, which is essentially a star.

You mention Payton. RJ sucked OFFENSIVELY with Kemba and Burks too, and both guys are good/elite 3-point shooters. So was it all on Payton? Or was it RJ too?

But I get it, if you move all your resources towards bringing in floor spacers 1-through-5 just to tailor a team around RJ, he might improve a little bit as a shot creator. And where does that leave you? Absolutely nowhere, because he still won't be good enough as a shot creator, let alone as a playmaker. Meanwhile, you've spent a tangible of resources to bring a stretch 4 and a stretch 5 (those don't exactly grow on trees) to accommodate a player who's not worth building around, when you could've spent those resources to bring in a proper shot creator.

RJ doesn't hurt the spacing if he's used strictly as a wide-open C&S guy. But any semblance of a contest and it's a brick. He was the worst shooter from the corners in the entire NBA, by the way.

Again, you're deflecting the blame to protect these young players when they're simply not as good as you want them to be. They contribute to our suckitude as much as if not more than the players around them.

You keep complaining about him being a 1st option and I keep telling you I don't want him to be a first option. And I'm not deflecting blame. He has never played with a good playmaker at all in his career (the best is a old shell of himself Derrick Rose). We shall see the brunson impact. The difference is I am saying there are weakness in his game but there are signs that he can improve which I have brought to the table and you just call them "ifs". What 21 year old player in year 3 doesn't have ifs. And before you go down the route of the super star young players. I don't think RJ has to be a super-star to be a good player for this team and worth extending. I think there is a middle ground there.

[TheGreenArrow]

Again you are moving the goal posts...no one is saying he is a star or even needs to be a star. And its tough to take your argument seriously when you say a name like KCP who never has even hit 15ppg before and never been tasked with any level of shot creation on a team in his career.

And your ignore that for this 1st two years of his career he started alongside Elfrid Payton...and for his entire career he has played alongside Randle and a center that can't shoot either.

So again. Is that simply just RJ or simply the knicks haven't played in a modern offense with modern spacing. Do you think its by dumb luck the Bucks don't but not shooting players next to Giannis? Again I'm not even remotely comparing the two. I'm simply talking about roster contruction. Why do they value bigs that can shoot? Why do they value complimentary players that can shoot. So Giannis has easier decisions to make when he drives. Why does dallas put shooters around Luka.

They even tried to improve the spacing this year with Kemba/Fournier but it backfired so much because it was such a disaster defensively. You will say RJ is part of that problem but you even admitted that the only EFF part of RJ's game is hitting open 3's...so is he hurting the spacing or is it the other guys?

KCP never hit 20ppg because he was never allowed by an organization to chuck as much as he wanted regardless of whether or not he met the threshold of respectability in terms of efficiency. Almost every NBA player can average 20ppg if you give him an unlimited amount of opportunities.

I'm not moving the goal posts. You said you viewed RJ as a secondary shot creator down the line, which is essentially a star.

You mention Payton. RJ sucked OFFENSIVELY with Kemba and Burks too, and both guys are good/elite 3-point shooters. So was it all on Payton? Or was it RJ too?

But I get it, if you move all your resources towards bringing in floor spacers 1-through-5 just to tailor a team around RJ, he might improve a little bit as a shot creator. And where does that leave you? Absolutely nowhere, because he still won't be good enough as a shot creator, let alone as a playmaker. Meanwhile, you've spent a tangible of resources to bring a stretch 4 and a stretch 5 (those don't exactly grow on trees) to accommodate a player who's not worth building around, when you could've spent those resources to bring in a proper shot creator.

RJ doesn't hurt the spacing if he's used strictly as a wide-open C&S guy. But any semblance of a contest and it's a brick. He was the worst shooter from the corners in the entire NBA, by the way.

Again, you're deflecting the blame to protect these young players when they're simply not as good as you want them to be. They contribute to our suckitude as much as if not more than the players around them.

You keep complaining about him being a 1st option and I keep telling you I don't want him to be a first option. And I'm not deflecting blame. He has never played with a good playmaker at all in his career (the best is a old shell of himself Derrick Rose). We shall see. The difference is I am saying there are weakness in his game but there are signs that he can improve which I have brought to the table and you just call them "ifs". What 21 year old player in year 3 doesn't have ifs. And before you go down the route of the super star young players. I don't think RJ has to be a super-star to be a good player for this team and worth extending. I think there is a middle ground there.

Sorry to interrupt but…..!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Read on Twitter

Congrats Man!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Reign23]

I already made a small Denver championship bet. love what they are doing.

[Polk377]

Read on Twitter

?s=21&t=q_tAnOt4eNZ4xVeuPNhZlQ

This is dope

This is a better homecoming story than Kemba's last year.

[Polk377]

I already made a small Denver championship bet. love what they are doing.

Take a chance and get it tattooed on you coward

[Reign23]

I already made a small Denver championship bet. love what they are doing.

Take a chance and get it tattooed on you coward