Did Grant Hill have the highest Detroit peak?

[durantbird]

In 97' Hill was third in MVP votes, and was an all around player with great passing and scoring.

Do you consider his peak in Detroit the best in franchise history?

Other candidates:
- (Maybe the most obvious one) Isiah Thomas - I believe he's less appreciated in this forum compared to the general public due to his relatively inefficiency for a player who's mostly a scorer, and who owed his success in large part to a great defense around him. How do you see his peak compared to Hill?
- Chauncey Billups
- Joe Dumars
- Bob Lanier
- Rasheed Wallace
- Ben Wallace
- Dave Bing

[Snakebites]

Most Pistons fans will consider it blasphemous, but I have Hill's Detroit peak as higher than Isiah's, though of course Isiah had the better Piston career.

Isiah's Detroit peak is in the mid-80s, before the team was properly the "bad boys". In 1985 he put up very impressive numbers on the 46 win Pistons (before Dumars, Rodman, etc)- I've got Hill's 1997 ahead of that (more impressive individual and advanced stats adjusted for pace, and 54 with a less impressive supporting cast).

By the late 80s when the team was a contender Isiah was the best player on a team that had a lot of really good players- his individual impact wasn't on the level of a guy like Hill IMO.

Again, this isn't a super popular take among Pistons fans, but it's my view.

[Cavsfansince84]

I'd probably have it at #1 followed by Chauncey/Lanier/Ben/Isiah.

[70sFan]

I'd take Bob Lanier's peak over him personally.

[SickMother]

I'd have to go with Chauncey myself. If we're talking peak season I would probably pick 04-05 as his best combination of regular season & playoffs. But between the FMVP IN 03-04 and that 05-06 regular season which was still followed up by a solid playoff run, that is a pretty strong three season peak.

Chauncey 03-04: 18.6 PER | .550 TS% | 107 TS+ | 11.3 WS | .198 WS/48
Chauncey 03-04 Playoffs?!?: 18.8 PER | .546 TS% | 3.7 WS | .203 WS/48

Chauncey 04-05: 19.0 PER | .609 TS% | 115 TS+ | 12.1 WS | .202 WS/48
Chauncey 04-05 Playoffs?!?: 20.0 PER | .577 TS% | 4.6 WS | .224 WS/48

Chauncey 05-06: 23.4 PER | .602 TS% | 112 TS+ | 15.5 WS | .254 WS/48
Chauncey 05-06 Playoffs?!?: 19.1 PER | .577 TS% | 2.7 WS | .184 WS/48

Lanier & Hill had some great regular seasons, but couldn't follow them up with much playoff success, granted with worse supporting casts than Billups. I'd put Bob over Grant for #2 based on longevity of peak & higher quality postseason play.

Lanier 73-74: 23.9 PER | .548 TS% | 109 TS+ | 14.4 WS | .227 WS/48
Lanier 73-74 Playoffs?!?: 25.2 PER | .545 TS% | 1.5 WS | .233 WS/48

Lanier 74-75: 24.4 PER | .559 TS% | 111 TS+ | 12.4 WS | .199 WS/48
Lanier 74-75 Playoffs?!?: 21.5 PER | .542 TS% | 0.4 WS | .151 WS/48

Lanier 75-76: 22.7 PER | .579 TS% | 115 TS+ | 10.1 WS | .205 WS/48
Lanier 75-76 Playoffs?!?: 25.3 PER | .606 TS% | 1.6 WS | .213 WS/48

Grant 96-97: 25.5 PER | .556 TS% | 104 TS+ | 14.6 WS | .223 WS/48
Grant 96-97 Playoffs?!?: 21.4 PER | .491 TS% | 0.2 WS | .059 WS/48

Isiah just doesn't quite stack up for me. Had one double digit Win Share season early in his career & while his FMVP postseason was pretty strong his 89-90 regular season was pretty meh.

Isiah 84-85: 22.2 PER | .529 TS% | 97 TS+ | 11.2 WS | .173 WS/48
Isiah 84-85 Playoffs?!?: 22.7 PER | .567 TS% | 1.2 WS | .165 WS/48

Isiah 89-90: 17.3 PER | .501 TS% | 93 TS+ | 6.7 WS | .107 WS/48
Isiah 89-90 Playoffs?!?: 21.0 PER | .560 TS% | 3.1 WS | .194 WS/48

[penbeast0]

What about Bobby McDermett who led the Pistons to two straight NBL titles?

[asindc]

In 97' Hill was third in MVP votes, and was an all around player with great passing and scoring.

Do you consider his peak in Detroit the best in franchise history?

Other candidates:
- (Maybe the most obvious one) Isiah Thomas - I believe he's less appreciated in this forum compared to the general public due to his relatively inefficiency for a player who's mostly a scorer, and who owed his success in large part to a great defense around him. How do you see his peak compared to Hill?
- Chauncey Billups
- Joe Dumars
- Bob Lanier
- Rasheed Wallace
- Ben Wallace
- Dave Bing

Isiah was primarily a facilitating PG who had elite scoring ability, rather than a score-first PG like Westbrook or Curry.

[falcolombardi]

In 97' Hill was third in MVP votes, and was an all around player with great passing and scoring.

Do you consider his peak in Detroit the best in franchise history?

Other candidates:
- (Maybe the most obvious one) Isiah Thomas - I believe he's less appreciated in this forum compared to the general public due to his relatively inefficiency for a player who's mostly a scorer, and who owed his success in large part to a great defense around him. How do you see his peak compared to Hill?
- Chauncey Billups
- Joe Dumars
- Bob Lanier
- Rasheed Wallace
- Ben Wallace
- Dave Bing

Isiah was primarily a facilitating PG who had elite scoring ability, rather than a score-first PG like Westbrook or Curry.

I wouldnt call isiah as having elite scoring ability, his efficiency was only a bit abovr average at his best and his volume was high-ish but not huge

If neither the volume or efficiency are "elite"i dont think you can be a elite scorer

[homecourtloss]

Once again, this Odinn21 led project had some good input:

https://forums.realgm.com/boards/viewtopic.php?f=64&t=2088158

[durantbird]

Once again, this Odinn21 led project had some good input:

https://forums.realgm.com/boards/viewtopic.php?f=64&t=2088158

Some surprisingly low rankings of Hill there

[capfan33]

I haven't looked into it that much but the lack of games in the postseason makes evaluating him difficult.

[feyki]

[feyki]

What about Bobby McDermett who led the Pistons to two straight NBL titles?

McDermott definitely better than either Hill or Isiah, he was arguably the best in the world in a stretch, but Lanier was as good as McAdoo,Cowens and coasting Kareem, it's definitely on the historical level.

[Owly]

I'd be looking first to Hill or Lanier.

Of those not mentioned here I'd be curious on Rodman (otoh raw WoWY [''93] stuff seemed very good, but the '93 version from Ben's spreadsheet with more controls is more pedestrian).

Of those not mentioned here or on the team thread ballots ... If one genuinely believes prime Dumars was a great defender (and thus vastly better his all time non-accumulation as a box-defender [steals, blocks and defensive rebounds]) maybe he warrants some discussion, though first glance I don't see him breaking through the pack.

Yardley/Foust from the double finals teams had productive playoff peaks.


Hard to speak to McDermott but with such a different era, so much less data but he has some accolades in his era.

[Stalwart]

Its Isiah guys lol. You're trying to reinvent the wheel on this one.

[Dr Positivity]

I think so, him and Lanier are pretty close for their eras, while Hill was against stronger competition

[HeartBreakKid]

Once again, this Odinn21 led project had some good input:

https://forums.realgm.com/boards/viewtopic.php?f=64&t=2088158

Some surprisingly low rankings of Hill there

His playoff stats leave some to be desired

[DNice68]

Once again, this Odinn21 led project had some good input:

https://forums.realgm.com/boards/viewtopic.php?f=64&t=2088158

Some surprisingly low rankings of Hill there

His playoff stats leave some to be desired

He didn't want to take big shot's in the postseason. People accuse Bron of this, but no check out Grant's playoff games!

[Owly]

Once again, this Odinn21 led project had some good input:

https://forums.realgm.com/boards/viewtopic.php?f=64&t=2088158

Some surprisingly low rankings of Hill there

His playoff stats leave some to be desired

Okay so my thoughts without any prior conception on this ... [note: maybe I do but I think I've just came to the same conclusion again ... but either way I did defend him in this respect in the project noted]

I'd be looking at Detroit as relevant here both because topic and because that's prime Hill.

There's one year that's outright bad. It's the year Hill was playing on an injured foot that maybe his team doctors [per Hill] were telling him wasn't so bad - google something like grant hill detroit foot playoff injury. He hurt it worse and at least somewhat related (I don't know all the injuries or how compensating for one can cause another or ....) missed most of the next five years. Personally I'm inclined to junk it. Your mileage may vary.

The rest ... mixed. Probably down a little? (I'm not looking closely and aggregating over multiple years can get messy and offers different routes). Depends what metric you choose. But he's 24.3 PER, 7.7 BPM, .128 WS/48 (this clearly the worst - hard to tell [due to rounding] but 96-2000 OWS DWS ratio seems to say it's DWS he's hurting most in in the playoffs and this may [or may not] be more about Detroit team level D then him).

Then too a playoff heavy weighter could choose '99 as his apex and have a particularly strong playoff apex (versus Thomas - consensus above him in the project - higher than his peaks across the board in a small sample [but also versus a -5.1 rel Drtg defense]. Indeed across this entire spell the PER and BPM average are better than Thomas's peaks. This is not the case for WS/48 to be fair but very few Thomas backers weight that stat heavily. This perhaps a touch off track but Thomas is a contrast in rating high in the project and being a favorite of playoff weighters. Sidenote: Yardley, a peak and career strong relative playoff guy got comparatively little love. Sidenote 2: Newer, better stats may give different outcomes, I'm not really across them but have seen Thomas's career playoff PIPM posted and it's strong.).

Obviously weighing playoffs can be messy with different contexts, opponents, sample sizes, sample distribution/alignments. That said, to me, Hill's production doesn't look bad in absolute terms.

[Ginoboleee]

I would certainly have Isiah Thomas in 1st; but then again, I have a very fluid understanding of peak, and team context.

Then Hill, sure, why not.

Closely followed by Lanier. If I had some time, I would try to prove that he really was #1, but I figure he was more steady, less peaks.

Somewhere back in the pack is ole Mayor Bing.

And then the rest of that Wallace & Wallace Partners at Law Team.

(Dumars is somewhere smiling that he is even being considered.)