Starting a Team- Curry/Lebron or Jordan/Bird?

[Matt15]

Which duo would you rather build around in todays league?

[Ginoboleee]

I gather we are to imagine using something like Prime and/or Peak for all the players?
And that this would then be for a season? or multiple seasons? And if the latter that Longevity would not be a factor?

Because by saying "in today's league" you made my brain go zap...

How many points do you think Jordan is going to score in today's league? Seriously. If it is what he did score, then that seems odd. And if it is not what he did score, then don't we need some kind of correction/adjustment for contemporary conditions? Similarly, speaking of conditions, how much more athletic/recovered would MJ be today with the advances in sports science?

Once we have that straight then we can tackle Bird. Because the Alternate Timeline Impact on him will be much bigger than for MJ. Do you think Bird will take and make the same number of 3's as he did? Really? And assuming the answer is no, then what do you think he would do today? Seriously. And odds are his back gets fixed right up too.

With those caveats in mind, MJ and Bird are ultimate winners, and this is an easy call.
Because we already know what LeBron and Curry would do in today's game.

The funky Alternate Timeline Question is what would they have done in the 80s/90s game?
Don't get me started lol.

[jasonxxx102]

Today would be curry Bron no contest.

The game is so wildly different today you can’t just say “oh Jordan would average 50 easily cause you can’t handcheck anymore”. Bad argument.

Players are so much more athletic and with advanced analytics you can much more easily game plan your defense to stop an individual player.

No MJ would not average some absurd amount of points today just because “it’s soft” now.

Look at the guys who average 30+ now, they’re all bombing 8+ 3s a game. Would Jordan have become a prolific shooter? Maybe… maybe not

No chance MJ averages 40+ in todays NBA so let’s just stop with that absurdity.

Birds game translates much more cleanly to today and I see him like a better version of Durant.

[Ginoboleee]

The game is so wildly different today you can’t just say “oh Jordan would average 50 easily cause you can’t handcheck anymore”. Bad argument.

Players are so much more athletic and with advanced analytics you can much more easily game plan your defense to stop an individual player.

No MJ would not average some absurd amount of points today just because “it’s soft” now.

Look at the guys who average 30+ now, they’re all bombing 8+ 3s a game. Would Jordan have become a prolific shooter? Maybe… maybe not

No chance MJ averages 40+ in todays NBA so let’s just stop with that absurdity.

Better average athleticism, good point. Check.
Better defensive game plans, good point. Check.
Questioning MJ's scalability as a 3-point shooter? Odd. But ok, fine.
Now having said all that...
Other than dismissing my general point with great confidence and flair, I have heard zero zilch zip nada that actually changes my mind.

I asked open-minded and open-ended questions. I think it is a fair and important question. I hope to hear a range of answers.

Meanwhile, your argument of assertion, assertion, dismissal, scoff, assertion, seems like the only bad argument.

Please enlighten me as to what I was missing if there is something between the lines that was supposed to be valid and persuasive.

[Cavsfansince84]

LeBron/Steph in part just because I think Steph would find it easier to let LeBron assert himself than it would be for Bird or MJ. They would definitely butt heads imo. Sure they would probably get along well enough to win some rings but I think eventually one would want out and that's on top of them having to adapt to today's game which they would but probably still not with the sort of ceiling that a LeBron/Steph combo brings.

[homecourtloss]

Obviously both pairs would create dynasties, but in today’s game, we’ve seen what a 1-4 screen roll game with James and Kyrie can do, and Curry is tiers ahead of Kyrie. Kyrie’s and Love didn’t perform with James off court and the Cavs were a -2.6 per 100 with James off/Kyrie+Love ON, but that wouldn’t be the case with Curry. This might come down to who’s around them, really, but this modern game, I’m taking James+Curry.

Today would be curry Bron no contest.

The game is so wildly different today you can’t just say “oh Jordan would average 50 easily cause you can’t handcheck anymore”. Bad argument.

Players are so much more athletic and with advanced analytics you can much more easily game plan your defense to stop an individual player.

No MJ would not average some absurd amount of points today just because “it’s soft” now.

Look at the guys who average 30+ now, they’re all bombing 8+ 3s a game. Would Jordan have become a prolific shooter? Maybe… maybe not

No chance MJ averages 40+ in todays NBA so let’s just stop with that absurdity.

Birds game translates much more cleanly to today and I see him like a better version of Durant.

Agree with most of this. The “handcheck” argument is absurd given that handchecking exists today and is uncalled. Anyone watching the Finals this year or the Finals in 2016, for example, see defenders’ hands all over the ball handler and other offensive players not much different from a 1989 Bulls vs. Pistons game.

Additionally, the free-throw rate in the 80s and 90s was much higher than it is now, and while people can say it’s because teams used to shoot more two pointers it doesn’t make up for the massive discrepancy since attempts at the rim look to be about equal and there are more drives per game now than ever before. Where were all the free throws coming from? Mostly touch fouls in the post. The 80s and 90s simultaneously had such physical play and such physical fouls but also paradoxically more free throws—where were all these free throws coming from? If players were allowed to be more physical, then why are there so many more free throws? They can’t ALL be free throws from monster fouls because rewatching the games (watch any of them from the ‘80s ans ‘90s) shows that those brutal fouls are few and far between. Logically, these free throws are coming from touch fouls which is corroborated by any viewing of ‘80s and ‘90s series.

The answer lies in watching these games sans emotion. I watch per them when I was young when the viewing was fraught with emotion, but when I go back and watch the series now looking at them analytically, you see an incredible amount of touch fouls and very very few hard fouls outside of the dozen or so highlight hard fouls that everyone associates with the 80s and 90s. Most of the fouls are common touch fouls and when you get 70, 75, 80+ total free throws a game of course they’re going to be of the common touch fouls because there’s simply aren’t enough hard fouls in the game that matches up with the reputation of all the supposed deadly force used in the 80s and 90s.

[Ginoboleee]

HomeCourtLoss, thanks for the substantive elaboration. Both Interesting and somewhat persuasive too!

I expect that I will always be fraught with emotion from those wonderful experiences.
I wouldn't want it any other way.

[jasonxxx102]

The game is so wildly different today you can’t just say “oh Jordan would average 50 easily cause you can’t handcheck anymore”. Bad argument.

Players are so much more athletic and with advanced analytics you can much more easily game plan your defense to stop an individual player.

No MJ would not average some absurd amount of points today just because “it’s soft” now.

Look at the guys who average 30+ now, they’re all bombing 8+ 3s a game. Would Jordan have become a prolific shooter? Maybe… maybe not

No chance MJ averages 40+ in todays NBA so let’s just stop with that absurdity.

Better average athleticism, good point. Check.
Better defensive game plans, good point. Check.
Questioning MJ's scalability as a 3-point shooter? Odd. But ok, fine.
Now having said all that...
Other than dismissing my general point with great confidence and flair, I have heard zero zilch zip nada that actually changes my mind.

I asked open-minded and open-ended questions. I think it is a fair and important question. I hope to hear a range of answers.

Meanwhile, your argument of assertion, assertion, dismissal, scoff, assertion, seems like the only bad argument.

Please enlighten me as to what I was missing if there is something between the lines that was supposed to be valid and persuasive.

Well here’s the thing: you won’t change your mind no matter what anyone types. Which is fine, nothing wrong with that but let’s not pretend anyone here is actually changing their mind.

I actually wasn’t even responding to you directly (or I would have quoted you) but your assertion that MJ would be substantively better today got me started.

Plenty of people here say how Jordan would have been averaging wilt-like stats because todays game is soft and to be perfectly honest, that’s super lame and a really lazy take. Just the same as if you put LeBron in the 60s or 70s or whatever he would have done the same…

[MyUniBroDavis]

This is Curry and lebron by a disgusting margin lol

The combo is absolutely insane the pick and roll game is absurd

[JordansBulls]

Close, but Jordan/Bird more titles in less seasons.

[Ginoboleee]

The game is so wildly different today you can’t just say “oh Jordan would average 50 easily cause you can’t handcheck anymore”. Bad argument.

Players are so much more athletic and with advanced analytics you can much more easily game plan your defense to stop an individual player.

No MJ would not average some absurd amount of points today just because “it’s soft” now.

Look at the guys who average 30+ now, they’re all bombing 8+ 3s a game. Would Jordan have become a prolific shooter? Maybe… maybe not

No chance MJ averages 40+ in todays NBA so let’s just stop with that absurdity.

Better average athleticism, good point. Check.
Better defensive game plans, good point. Check.
Questioning MJ's scalability as a 3-point shooter? Odd. But ok, fine.
Now having said all that...
Other than dismissing my general point with great confidence and flair, I have heard zero zilch zip nada that actually changes my mind.

I asked open-minded and open-ended questions. I think it is a fair and important question. I hope to hear a range of answers.

Meanwhile, your argument of assertion, assertion, dismissal, scoff, assertion, seems like the only bad argument.

Please enlighten me as to what I was missing if there is something between the lines that was supposed to be valid and persuasive.

Well here’s the thing: you won’t change your mind no matter what anyone types. Which is fine, nothing wrong with that but let’s not pretend anyone here is actually changing their mind.

I actually wasn’t even responding to you directly (or I would have quoted you) but your assertion that MJ would be substantively better today got me started.

Plenty of people here say how Jordan would have been averaging wilt-like stats because todays game is soft and to be perfectly honest, that’s super lame and a really lazy take. Just the same as if you put LeBron in the 60s or 70s or whatever he would have done the same…

In bold is the saddest thing I read in my first couple weeks here.

I thought RGM was supposed to be on an entirely higher level.