2022-23 NBA Season Discussion

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Re: 2022-23 NBA Season Discussion 

Post#281 » by tsherkin » Tue Jul 5, 2022 12:25 am

MartinToVaught wrote:
sp6r=underrated wrote:
MartinToVaught wrote:Curry, Klay and Draymond shouldn't get a pass here either. They're recruiting KD again because they're scared of another Western team getting him and making the West tougher for them.

None of these guys have a competitive bone in their body. They're so soft, Charmin might as well be sandpaper compared to them.


Cowards. What are you talking about? The point is to win not to win with the greatest degree of difficult possible.

The point is to compete and entertain the fans, i.e. the people who make it possible for them to get paid millions to play a kids' game for a living. Winning means nothing if it wasn't earned.



So you're opposed to good collections of high-end talent, and believe teams ahould win with the thinnest, weakest roster possible, or just languish in mediocrity kf chance doesnt favor them? You believe GMs should ignore opportunities to increase team success, and thus fan engagement?

Edit: Im just trying to understand. I can dig it if it ksnt your flavor, but you are implying that signing Durant would ne objectively bad, which seems quite false
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Re: 2022-23 NBA Season Discussion 

Post#282 » by sp6r=underrated » Tue Jul 5, 2022 12:34 am

MartinToVaught wrote:
sp6r=underrated wrote:
MartinToVaught wrote:Curry, Klay and Draymond shouldn't get a pass here either. They're recruiting KD again because they're scared of another Western team getting him and making the West tougher for them.

None of these guys have a competitive bone in their body. They're so soft, Charmin might as well be sandpaper compared to them.


Cowards. What are you talking about? The point is to win not to win with the greatest degree of difficult possible.

The point is to compete and entertain the fans, i.e. the people who make it possible for them to get paid millions to play a kids' game for a living. Winning means nothing if it wasn't earned.


The owners pushed hard for maximum individual salaries in the 1999 CBA negotiations to get the union to agree to lower share of basketball revenue. The result of that is Durant can't maximize his basketball salary.

His choice is to 26 million playing with Westbrook in Oklahoma or 26 million playing with Curry and Dray in the Bay Area. The Warriors offer a better work environment, since playing with more talented co-workers is more rewarding than less. The Bay Area. for millionaires, offers a better quality of life than Oklahoma. Both on and off the court signing with the Warriors is the rational choice.

Durant did the rational thing. If you don't like that choice, blame the owners for prioritizing lower labor costs in the 1999 CBA negotiations.

But expecting Durant to act against his own rational interests is an absurd expectation.
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Re: 2022-23 NBA Season Discussion 

Post#283 » by falcolombardi » Tue Jul 5, 2022 1:11 am

sp6r=underrated wrote:
MartinToVaught wrote:
sp6r=underrated wrote:
Cowards. What are you talking about? The point is to win not to win with the greatest degree of difficult possible.

The point is to compete and entertain the fans, i.e. the people who make it possible for them to get paid millions to play a kids' game for a living. Winning means nothing if it wasn't earned.


The owners pushed hard for maximum individual salaries in the 1999 CBA negotiations to get the union to agree to lower share of basketball revenue. The result of that is Durant can't maximize his basketball salary.

His choice is to 26 million playing with Westbrook in Oklahoma or 26 million playing with Curry and Dray in the Bay Area. The Warriors offer a better work environment, since playing with more talented co-workers is more rewarding than less. The Bay Area. for millionaires, offers a better quality of life than Oklahoma. Both on and off the court signing with the Warriors is the rational choice.

Durant did the rational thing. If you don't like that choice, blame the owners for prioritizing lower labor costs in the 1999 CBA negotiations.

But expecting Durant to act against his own rational interests is an absurd expectation.


I think a lot of issues comes from fans who like using team results and ring counting as a way to rank players with no further context, people tie themselves in a pretzel by trying to uphold this logic

A player had more or less help or played tougher or softer competition? Say somwthingh like "goats dont make excuses" or round up and down the level of their teammates so you can pretend the winner of a series always came down to supertar A outpkaying superstar B

Cause if we accept the fact that sometines the best player loses or a worsr player can win more rings than a better one (talking about superstars here*) then the whole logic system comes down

If we didnt evaluate players so much by team success we wouldnt have to get mad about durant winning fake rings or whatever, we could evaluate dursnt on his level of play in the context he played regardless of easy rings or not

The ringzz counting logic at ranking pkayers inherently forces us to pretend is comparably tough to win for it to make sense, and stuff like 2017 durant move breaks that mirage
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Re: 2022-23 NBA Season Discussion 

Post#284 » by ardee » Tue Jul 5, 2022 1:22 am

Gooner wrote:Warriors don't need KD, but nothing would surprise me in this soft NBA. Everybody wants the easiest path possible, no competitiveness. NBA has declined a lot since Kobe's generation left. LBJ and KD have pussified this league.


What?? LeBron was the guy who went up against that superteam and also beat them on his own. He's the opposite of what Durant represents.
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Re: 2022-23 NBA Season Discussion 

Post#285 » by ardee » Tue Jul 5, 2022 1:28 am

MyUniBroDavis wrote:KD is the only person who will spend years justifying himself for going to a 73 win team that sent him home and were one win away from the finals and then proceed to want to go to that team after they win without him

GO TO TORONTO COWARD


Raptors shouldn't trade for him. They'd have to give up Barnes, who is looking like a generational talent, for an oft-injured 34 year old. Not worth it at all.

Their starting 5 is all 27 or younger, and they just won 48 games. As Barnes, Trent and Anunoby improve, the team will get a lot better.

They are set as a franchise. No need to make these kinds of moves.
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Re: 2022-23 NBA Season Discussion 

Post#286 » by sp6r=underrated » Tue Jul 5, 2022 1:32 am

falcolombardi wrote:
sp6r=underrated wrote:
MartinToVaught wrote:The point is to compete and entertain the fans, i.e. the people who make it possible for them to get paid millions to play a kids' game for a living. Winning means nothing if it wasn't earned.


The owners pushed hard for maximum individual salaries in the 1999 CBA negotiations to get the union to agree to lower share of basketball revenue. The result of that is Durant can't maximize his basketball salary.

His choice is to 26 million playing with Westbrook in Oklahoma or 26 million playing with Curry and Dray in the Bay Area. The Warriors offer a better work environment, since playing with more talented co-workers is more rewarding than less. The Bay Area. for millionaires, offers a better quality of life than Oklahoma. Both on and off the court signing with the Warriors is the rational choice.

Durant did the rational thing. If you don't like that choice, blame the owners for prioritizing lower labor costs in the 1999 CBA negotiations.

But expecting Durant to act against his own rational interests is an absurd expectation.


I think a lot of issues comes from fans who like using team results and ring counting as a way to rank players with no further context, people tie themselves in a pretzel by trying to uphold this logic

A player had more or less help or played tougher or softer competition? Say somwthingh like "goats dont make excuses" or round up and down the level of their teammates so you can pretend the winner of a series always came down to supertar A outpkaying superstar B

Cause if we accept the fact that sometines the best player loses or a worsr player can win more rings than a better one (talking about superstars here*) then the whole logic system comes down

If we didnt evaluate players so much by team success we wouldnt have to get mad about durant winning fake rings or whatever, we could evaluate dursnt on his level of play in the context he played


You get at a lot of it.

A lot of the anger is the desire for the best player of each generation to end up with the most rings. A disproportionate, not all, but disproportionate of the people I met who hated the Durant signing were Lebron superfans who disliked that it made it much harder for him to end up with rings. Many of them didn't care when Wade, who we all thought would age better than he did, paired with Lebron.

I try not to care which player ends up with the most rings. It is a team sport. There is no reason to think the best players should have the most rings. The ring counter culture is strange. But a lot of basketball fans really do approach it as tennis and love thinking the best player on each team decides each series.

The media sells that narrative which compounds the problem. Many basketball fans are inclined to think the best player decides each series. The major basketball networks frame NBA discussions around that premise since they know it will attract viewers. This will always annoy player fans when their player is still the best but playing on a weaker team, which is what happened with Lebron.

The anger over the Durant signing was also a desire for closer series and more contenders, which concentration of talent reduces. It really did make it much harder for team fans to believe their team could win. The number of credible contenders was reduced. And the confidence level of fans of the other remaining contenders was reduced considerably.

It would be better off if he stayed in Oklahoma so we had another contender. That team could easily have won a title.

But the owners designed a system that encourages players to pair up, The owners designed a system that discourages the top players from considering salary in their signing decisions. It is hard for me to fault players for make incentive aligned decisions.

From my own personal life, I've lived in Minneapolis for half decade and SF for a decade. I had by far a happier existence in Minneapolis. But if you told me I could make 20 million in SF or Minneapolis I'd take SF. If you told me I could make 20 million in SF or Minneapolis and have better co-workers in SF, I would definitely take SF.

That is the choice the owners created when they prioritized lowering labor costs by breaking the players union in 1999. They made it much harder for teams to get superstars to stay on either bad teams or teams in undesirable cities. Who can blame them? If you think about it rationally, they are making the correct decision. Just as they are now making the correct decision to pair off in the big cities, were they can get the best of both worlds.

Get rid of max salaries but keep the soft cap you'll see a lot less of it but that would require the owners agreeing to give the players a greater share of basketball revenue. And the owners would rather whine about players lacking "competitive heart," "loyalty, " and being "fame hungry" and other nonsense rather than acknowledge they designed a system that made it crippling for most teams.

But hey franchise value is up, which is what they care about.
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Re: 2022-23 NBA Season Discussion 

Post#287 » by falcolombardi » Tue Jul 5, 2022 1:35 am

ardee wrote:
MyUniBroDavis wrote:KD is the only person who will spend years justifying himself for going to a 73 win team that sent him home and were one win away from the finals and then proceed to want to go to that team after they win without him

GO TO TORONTO COWARD


Raptors shouldn't trade for him. They'd have to give up Barnes, who is looking like a generational talent, for an oft-injured 34 year old. Not worth it at all.

Their starting 5 is all 27 or younger, and they just won 48 games. As Barnes, Trent and Anunoby improve, the team will get a lot better.

They are set as a franchise. No need to make these kinds of moves.


They could always move siakam and/or vanvleet + picks instead
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Re: 2022-23 NBA Season Discussion 

Post#288 » by Gooner » Tue Jul 5, 2022 7:09 am

ardee wrote:
Gooner wrote:Warriors don't need KD, but nothing would surprise me in this soft NBA. Everybody wants the easiest path possible, no competitiveness. NBA has declined a lot since Kobe's generation left. LBJ and KD have pussified this league.


What?? LeBron was the guy who went up against that superteam and also beat them on his own. He's the opposite of what Durant represents.


Warriors were not a super team before Durant came. Cavs were more of a super team with LBJ, Irving and Love. Just to make it clear, I don't even have a problem with LBJ going to Miami, or back to Cleveland and then to the Lakers. All those moves made sense. But I know his mentality. If he could join the Warriors, he would do it aswell and he doesn't hide it. He would play with Curry, KD, Kawhi or any rival he ever had, just to have the easiest path possible.

There is no rivalries anymore, and no competitveness. Individuals matter more than teams, and LBJ was a culture setter for that. KD being the follower that he is has fully adopted that kind of approach..
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Re: 2022-23 NBA Season Discussion 

Post#289 » by The-Power » Tue Jul 5, 2022 8:24 am

MartinToVaught wrote:Curry, Klay and Draymond shouldn't get a pass here either. They're recruiting KD again because they're scared of another Western team getting him and making the West tougher for them.

Source that they are all ‘recruiting’ him?

MartinToVaught wrote:None of these guys have a competitive bone in their body. They're so soft, Charmin might as well be sandpaper compared to them.

They must be the greatest collection of talent in NBA history if they can continue to win championships without ‘a competitive bone in their body’. Makes their dynasty even more impressive, actually.
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Re: 2022-23 NBA Season Discussion 

Post#290 » by ardee » Tue Jul 5, 2022 8:29 am

Gooner wrote:
ardee wrote:
Gooner wrote:Warriors don't need KD, but nothing would surprise me in this soft NBA. Everybody wants the easiest path possible, no competitiveness. NBA has declined a lot since Kobe's generation left. LBJ and KD have pussified this league.


What?? LeBron was the guy who went up against that superteam and also beat them on his own. He's the opposite of what Durant represents.


Warriors were not a super team before Durant came. Cavs were more of a super team with LBJ, Irving and Love. Just to make it clear, I don't even have a problem with LBJ going to Miami, or back to Cleveland and then to the Lakers. All those moves made sense. But I know his mentality. If he could join the Warriors, he would do it aswell and he doesn't hide it. He would play with Curry, KD, Kawhi or any rival he ever had, just to have the easiest path possible.

There is no rivalries anymore, and no competitveness. Individuals matter more than teams, and LBJ was a culture setter for that. KD being the follower that he is has fully adopted that kind of approach..


Sure. You know how he likes his steak too?

Stop psychoanalyzing players :lol:

LeBron joined a young Cavs team in 2014 that hadn't made the Playoffs since he left 4 years ago. Then he joined the Lakers in 2019, who hadn't made the Playoffs since 2013. So comparing him to KD makes no sense....
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Re: 2022-23 NBA Season Discussion 

Post#291 » by tsherkin » Tue Jul 5, 2022 9:13 am

ardee wrote:
Raptors shouldn't trade for him. They'd have to give up Barnes, who is looking like a generational talent, for an oft-injured 34 year old. Not worth it at all.



I've heard a lot of really high-end praise for Barnes. Magic Johnson comparisons, your remark about "generational talent" and so forth. For a dude who cant shoot, he gets a lot of praise. His potential as a point forward is interesting, and he is very young, of course. But a lot of it seems very far ahead of him. Big question if he can be good enough as a scorer to merit that sort of talk.
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Re: 2022-23 NBA Season Discussion 

Post#292 » by MyUniBroDavis » Tue Jul 5, 2022 10:09 am

The-Power wrote:
MartinToVaught wrote:Curry, Klay and Draymond shouldn't get a pass here either. They're recruiting KD again because they're scared of another Western team getting him and making the West tougher for them.

Source that they are all ‘recruiting’ him?

MartinToVaught wrote:None of these guys have a competitive bone in their body. They're so soft, Charmin might as well be sandpaper compared to them.

They must be the greatest collection of talent in NBA history if they can continue to win championships without ‘a competitive bone in their body’. Makes their dynasty even more impressive, actually.


Tbf they were the greatest collection of talent in nba history for a few years lol
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Re: 2022-23 NBA Season Discussion 

Post#293 » by HeartBreakKid » Tue Jul 5, 2022 10:20 am

Got to love Gooner romanticizing Kobe Bryant again as if he joined the Bobcats and took them to prominence or something.
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Re: 2022-23 NBA Season Discussion 

Post#294 » by Gooner » Tue Jul 5, 2022 11:00 am

HeartBreakKid wrote:Got to love Gooner romanticizing Kobe Bryant again as if he joined the Bobcats and took them to prominence or something.



Kobe stayed with the same team for his whole career. He had a lot of success, but in 20 years, there are always some difficult moments. He went through all of that with his team, the Lakers. Kobe would never play in Boston or San Antonio. Guys like KD and LBJ have no pride in that regard, they'll play with anybody, including each other.
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Re: 2022-23 NBA Season Discussion 

Post#295 » by Colbinii » Tue Jul 5, 2022 1:25 pm

Gooner wrote:
HeartBreakKid wrote:Got to love Gooner romanticizing Kobe Bryant again as if he joined the Bobcats and took them to prominence or something.



Kobe stayed with the same team for his whole career. He had a lot of success, but in 20 years, there are always some difficult moments. He went through all of that with his team, the Lakers. Kobe would never play in Boston or San Antonio. Guys like KD and LBJ have no pride in that regard, they'll play with anybody, including each other.


LeBron and KD never played in San Antonio or Boston either.

Kobe forced his way to the Lakers prior to the draft. Kobe made demands for a trade in between the Shaq and Gasol era's.

Its almost as if you criticize certain players for something and ignore other players who did similar things...
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Re: 2022-23 NBA Season Discussion 

Post#296 » by MartinToVaught » Tue Jul 5, 2022 1:34 pm

MyUniBroDavis wrote:
MartinToVaught wrote:
sp6r=underrated wrote:
Cowards. What are you talking about? The point is to win not to win with the greatest degree of difficult possible.

The point is to compete and entertain the fans, i.e. the people who make it possible for them to get paid millions to play a kids' game for a living. Winning means nothing if it wasn't earned.


Honestly I think recruiting whoever is fine, it’s be like calling a GM a coward for trying to build a super team

The thing with KD is going to the team that beat him, and honestly going to a team that win the chip if he does the at which he probably won’t, are just suuuuch weak moves, the people that don’t get that are like Nate Duncan when he was criticizing the ANT dunk lol

I don't think the GM comparison really fits. A GM's job is to get players. A player's job is to play.
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Re: 2022-23 NBA Season Discussion 

Post#297 » by MartinToVaught » Tue Jul 5, 2022 1:34 pm

sp6r=underrated wrote:His choice is to 26 million playing with Westbrook in Oklahoma or 26 million playing with Curry and Dray in the Bay Area.

He had several other choices besides those two, all of which would have also been more competitive than joining Steph's 73-win team that he had just choked/quit against.
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Re: 2022-23 NBA Season Discussion 

Post#298 » by yoyoboy » Tue Jul 5, 2022 2:40 pm

It’s honestly even hard to care anymore and get attached to teams or the NBA landscape itself when you know rosters are simply revolving doors of players and stars will bolt as soon as team situations don’t immediately meet all of their expectations of titles/fun/good relations/whatever else. I’ve never even been one to complain about this stuff, but I’ve kinda reached my breaking point now. And I think anyone who downplays it and acts like it doesn’t to some degree signify a lack of competitiveness from players among one another is being dishonest.
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Re: 2022-23 NBA Season Discussion 

Post#299 » by Peregrine01 » Tue Jul 5, 2022 2:49 pm

yoyoboy wrote:It’s honestly even hard to care anymore and get attached to teams or the NBA landscape itself when you know rosters are simply revolving doors of players and stars will bolt as soon as team situations don’t immediately meet all of their expectations of titles/fun/good relations/whatever else. I’ve never even been one to complain about this stuff, but I’ve kinda reached my breaking point now. And I think anyone who downplays it and acts like it doesn’t to some degree signify a lack of competitiveness from players among one another is being dishonest.


Yup. Which is why I can't really bring myself to care about players like Bron and KD, no matter how good they are, and am far more interested in players like Steph, Jokic and Giannis. I doubt many other fans of teams care much about mercenary players either. If anything, I think Bron should thank a professional troll like Skip Bayless whose hating has rallied a lot more Bron stans to his side than he ever could have by himself.
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Re: 2022-23 NBA Season Discussion 

Post#300 » by MartinToVaught » Tue Jul 5, 2022 3:03 pm

yoyoboy wrote:It’s honestly even hard to care anymore and get attached to teams or the NBA landscape itself when you know rosters are simply revolving doors of players and stars will bolt as soon as team situations don’t immediately meet all of their expectations of titles/fun/good relations/whatever else. I’ve never even been one to complain about this stuff, but I’ve kinda reached my breaking point now. And I think anyone who downplays it and acts like it doesn’t to some degree signify a lack of competitiveness from players among one another is being dishonest.

Well said. And I just can't get on board with blaming owners, fans, media, etc. like these players aren't grown adults with agency over their lives. Players should get the most blame for the anti-competitive nature of the modern NBA because they have the most direct impact on the outcome of games. It's that simple.

Most of these guys haven't even had bad owners or GMs like what LeBron was saddled with during his first stint in Cleveland. KD has been living the life of luxury in his career and just quits whenever something doesn't go his way.
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