Trade Ideas

[JonFromVA]

So apparently the Cavs have had talks with the Spurs about acquiring Murray. Would be interesting to see what kind of package it would take to get him. I felt prior to this season that Murray would've been a great fit next to Sexton as that bigger guard that could guard 2s while Sexton took the PGs and Murray could still be the primary ball handler/facilitator, but Garland really stepped up. I could see Murray being a good fit with Garland as well as Garland should be able to play well off ball with him.

Though honestly I just don't understand why the Spurs would trade Murray. They don't really have another PG on the roster after trading Derrick White and they aren't in a position to draft Ivey... Primo and Walker are both SGs, so they must already have another PG they are looking at trading for or signing in FA to be willing to make such a trade. They definitely aren't an organization known for tanking. Just seems weird. It's also unlikely it's because Pop has an infatuation with someone like Sexton because Pop is retiring soon and the Spurs wouldn't make a move like that for a coach that isn't going to be there to develop them.

There's a rumor that the Spurs are asking for a Jrue Holiday-like deal for Murray, so expect multiple firsts and swaps.

As for why?

I'm not sure if or what the source of unhappiness is. Maybe it's wish-casting from the media? But Murray is friends with Garland and they are both Klutch clients, so, there are connections and possibilities to feed the rumor mill.

He's high usage, ball dominant, and not terribly efficient. The Spurs have always preferred a ball movement system.

Pops made peace with Tony Parker, so I suspect there's more too it (if the rumors are legit) ... like they keep butting heads and DeJounte is sick of hearing it and Pops is tired of trying to change him.

[jbk1234]

There's a rumor that the Spurs are asking for a Jrue Holiday-like deal for Murray, so expect multiple firsts and swaps.

As for why?

I'm not sure if or what the source of unhappiness is. Maybe it's wish-casting from the media? But Murray is friends with Garland and they are both Klutch clients, so, there are connections and possibilities to feed the rumor mill.

He's high usage, ball dominant, and not terribly efficient. The Spurs have always preferred a ball movement system.

Pops made peace with Tony Parker, so I suspect there's more too it (if the rumors are legit) ... like they keep butting heads and DeJounte is sick of hearing it and Pops is tired of trying to change him.

Murray very much scares me as a guy who thinks he's better than he is and whose team is going to struggle to win with him playing as he prefers. The ability to play off ball matters if you're ever going to pair him with a meaningful guard as a starter and I haven't seen a lot of interest on his end in developing that game. He averaged 18.3 FGA per game last season, he wasn't efficient, and unlike Garland, he's not a shooter. How do you build around that unless he's willing to accept significantly fewer attempts and step into a second option/facilitator role? He made the all star team and I'm sure he thinks he's underpaid for what he brings, so what are the chances of him selecting that role? If you manage to nudge him there, you need spacing around him so he can actually do something with him off ball.

Murray is a caveat emptor guy to me. The Spurs are smart by selling high on him.

[JonFromVA]

He's high usage, ball dominant, and not terribly efficient. The Spurs have always preferred a ball movement system.

Pops made peace with Tony Parker, so I suspect there's more too it (if the rumors are legit) ... like they keep butting heads and DeJounte is sick of hearing it and Pops is tired of trying to change him.

Murray very much scares me as a guy who thinks he's better than he is and whose team is going to struggle to win with him playing as he prefers. The ability to play off ball matters if you're ever going to pair him with a meaningful guard as a starter and I haven't seen a lot of interest on his end in developing that game. He averaged 18.3 FGA per game last season, he wasn't efficient, and unlike Garland, he's not a shooter. How do you build around that unless he's willing to accept significantly fewer attempts and step into a second option/facilitator role? He made the all star team and I'm sure he thinks he's underpaid for what he brings, so what are the chances of him selecting that role? If you manage to nudge him there, you need spacing around him so he can actually do something with him off ball.

Murray is a caveat emptor guy to me. The Spurs are smart by selling high on him.

He's also coming off a career year after dealing with a lot of injuries, so that can always go South ... or he can improve further. So, there's some risk there.

What do we make of Koby drafting Agbaji, though?

Is it strategic or just a depth move?

In other words, if the goal was to pair Darius with basically a taller PG like Murray, we didn't shoot for that in the draft. If we want a real SF and to move Lauri in to the Love role, we didn't spend our lottery pick on that either.

But perhaps they feel Agbaji could play either wing and gives them options without necessarily feeling committed to a specific path. For example, if they could trade Lauri and Isaac for Murray (or similar) maybe they'd be happy to play Agbaji at SF ...

Next up, sorting out Sexton, LeVert and kicking tires on backup PGs.

[jbk1234]

Pops made peace with Tony Parker, so I suspect there's more too it (if the rumors are legit) ... like they keep butting heads and DeJounte is sick of hearing it and Pops is tired of trying to change him.

Murray very much scares me as a guy who thinks he's better than he is and whose team is going to struggle to win with him playing as he prefers. The ability to play off ball matters if you're ever going to pair him with a meaningful guard as a starter and I haven't seen a lot of interest on his end in developing that game. He averaged 18.3 FGA per game last season, he wasn't efficient, and unlike Garland, he's not a shooter. How do you build around that unless he's willing to accept significantly fewer attempts and step into a second option/facilitator role? He made the all star team and I'm sure he thinks he's underpaid for what he brings, so what are the chances of him selecting that role? If you manage to nudge him there, you need spacing around him so he can actually do something with him off ball.

Murray is a caveat emptor guy to me. The Spurs are smart by selling high on him.

He's also coming off a career year after dealing with a lot of injuries, so that can always go South ... or he can improve further. So, there's some risk there.

What do we make of Koby drafting Agbaji, though?

Is it strategic or just a depth move?

In other words, if the goal was to pair Darius with basically a taller PG like Murray, we didn't shoot for that in the draft. If we want a real SF and to move Lauri in to the Love role, we didn't spend our lottery pick on that either.

But perhaps they feel Agbaji could play either wing and gives them options without necessarily feeling committed to a specific path. For example, if they could trade Lauri and Isaac for Murray (or similar) maybe they'd be happy to play Agbaji at SF ...

Next up, sorting out Sexton, LeVert and kicking tires on backup PGs.

Agbaji gives your three best players more room to operate which is the most important consideration IMO. It gets very difficult to camp four guys in the paint when all of Agbaji, Lauri, and Garland on the floor. I think using this season to see whether Mobley can help facilitate is smart. Also, LeVert can get some run at SF if Agbaji is also on the floor and there's your second facilitator if the other team gets trap happy on Garland (although I worry teams are more than happy living with the risk that LeVert could beat them). In any event, if the Cavs want to see another season, or another half season with LeVert getting at least some run with starters, there's on opportunity now.

It very much looks Sexton's returning as a sixth man or he's not returning. The Cavs might pay a bit of a premium for a really good sixth man, but if he finds a team willing to pay him well, he's gone. It's going to be a crazy week next week.

[JonFromVA]

Murray very much scares me as a guy who thinks he's better than he is and whose team is going to struggle to win with him playing as he prefers. The ability to play off ball matters if you're ever going to pair him with a meaningful guard as a starter and I haven't seen a lot of interest on his end in developing that game. He averaged 18.3 FGA per game last season, he wasn't efficient, and unlike Garland, he's not a shooter. How do you build around that unless he's willing to accept significantly fewer attempts and step into a second option/facilitator role? He made the all star team and I'm sure he thinks he's underpaid for what he brings, so what are the chances of him selecting that role? If you manage to nudge him there, you need spacing around him so he can actually do something with him off ball.

Murray is a caveat emptor guy to me. The Spurs are smart by selling high on him.

He's also coming off a career year after dealing with a lot of injuries, so that can always go South ... or he can improve further. So, there's some risk there.

What do we make of Koby drafting Agbaji, though?

Is it strategic or just a depth move?

In other words, if the goal was to pair Darius with basically a taller PG like Murray, we didn't shoot for that in the draft. If we want a real SF and to move Lauri in to the Love role, we didn't spend our lottery pick on that either.

But perhaps they feel Agbaji could play either wing and gives them options without necessarily feeling committed to a specific path. For example, if they could trade Lauri and Isaac for Murray (or similar) maybe they'd be happy to play Agbaji at SF ...

Next up, sorting out Sexton, LeVert and kicking tires on backup PGs.

Agbaji gives your three best players more room to operate which is the most important consideration IMO. It gets very difficult to camp four guys in the paint when all of Agbaji, Lauri, and Garland on the floor. I think using this season to see whether Mobley can help facilitate is smart. Also, LeVert can get some run at SF if Agbaji is also on the floor and there's your second facilitator if the other team gets trap happy on Garland (although I worry teams are more than happy living with the risk that LeVert could beat them). In any event, if the Cavs want to see another season, or another half season with LeVert getting at least some run with starters, there's on opportunity now.

It very much looks Sexton's returning as a sixth man or he's not returning. The Cavs might pay a bit of a premium for a really good sixth man, but if he finds a team willing to pay him well, he's gone. It's going to be a crazy week next week.

Executing a 4v3 isn't rocket science as long as the 3 can't ignore one or more of the 4; which isn't to trivialize the sort of balanced unit you need to avoid being exploited on one end of the floor or the other.

That Agbaji can conceivably shoot & defend is helpful.

[JujitsuFlip]

Why not see what it would take to acquire Cam Reddish? Ik apparently there some red flags but he's young and on a cheap deal, has to be better than LeVert.

[toooskies]

Why not see what it would take to acquire Cam Reddish? Ik apparently there some red flags but he's young and on a cheap deal, has to be better than LeVert.

No he doesn't. At least LeVert passes sometimes.

[JujitsuFlip]

Why not see what it would take to acquire Cam Reddish? Ik apparently there some red flags but he's young and on a cheap deal, has to be better than LeVert.

No he doesn't. At least LeVert passes sometimes.

Does he? I must've blinked haha

[KuruptedCav]

Why not see what it would take to acquire Cam Reddish? Ik apparently there some red flags but he's young and on a cheap deal, has to be better than LeVert.

No he doesn't. At least LeVert passes sometimes.

Does he? I must've blinked haha

Yeah, Caris was at 4.7 assists/36; which is less than I expected but significantly more than Reddish 1.7 assists/36.

Reddish is a difficult player. Like he has the perfect NBA body and flashes all the talent, but cannot put it together. He was inefficient at Duke despite being the third option. He can’t shoot, doesn’t pass, doesn’t rebound, and his defensive metrics have gotten progressively worse. He’s an okay defender, but it’s all athleticism and size, not actually knowing how to play defense.

Hard pass.


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[KuruptedCav]

It’s been a while since the knock down drag out since the last set of discussions over Ben Simmons.

Are the year of Garland/Mobley development and one year less on Simmons contract enough to make triggering the tax for a new wing worth it?


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[toooskies]

It’s been a while since the knock down drag out since the last set of discussions over Ben Simmons.

Are the year of Garland/Mobley development and one year less on Simmons contract enough to make triggering the tax for a new wing worth it?


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I don't see how Simmons could play with Allen and Mobley on the court, and I would rather keep them than make room for Simmons.

[jbk1234]

It’s been a while since the knock down drag out since the last set of discussions over Ben Simmons.

Are the year of Garland/Mobley development and one year less on Simmons contract enough to make triggering the tax for a new wing worth it?


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I don't see how Simmons could play with Allen and Mobley on the court, and I would rather keep them than make room for Simmons.

Yeah, the 16 ppg Allen gives the team are the most efficient.

[KuruptedCav]

It’s been a while since the knock down drag out since the last set of discussions over Ben Simmons.

Are the year of Garland/Mobley development and one year less on Simmons contract enough to make triggering the tax for a new wing worth it?


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I don't see how Simmons could play with Allen and Mobley on the court, and I would rather keep them than make room for Simmons.

It’s been a while since the knock down drag out since the last set of discussions over Ben Simmons.

Are the year of Garland/Mobley development and one year less on Simmons contract enough to make triggering the tax for a new wing worth it?


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They can each average 32 mpg without ever putting all three on the court at once.

Price could be depressed with Nets having to move him to take back Bam in a Miami deal.

Cedi & Love
Cedi & Sexton
Love & Windler
Levert & Sexton

Plus some picks.


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[mcfly1204]

Simmons is a tough sell for me. If Simmons is not starting or closing out games (assuming Garland, Mobley, and Allen do), then what's the point?

[KuruptedCav]

Simmons is a tough sell for me. If Simmons is not starting or closing out games (assuming Garland, Mobley, and Allen do), then what's the point?

Stealing value from the Nets. It’s been a while .


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[JonFromVA]

Simmons is a tough sell for me. If Simmons is not starting or closing out games (assuming Garland, Mobley, and Allen do), then what's the point?

Not to mention, it's just not clear if he wants to play basketball, anymore. You'd think after all this time away and a change to teams, we'd at least have seen him try to play a few games.

If he's more interested in maintaining a charade of mental illness so he can get more money out of Philly, that's worse in my mind than if he's truly struggling with his confidence. It's not all clear he'd be happy in Cleveland and if he's not or the expectations raise beyond his ability to process - we'll be stuck with him.

In short, we've invested a lot in to team chemistry and I'd like to see where that can take us. If Ben wants to work with the Nets on a buy-out and then sign here for pennies on the dollar, I'd take that as a sign he wants to play, wants to be here, and wants to resurrect his image.

Presumably he'd just sign with the Lakers, though ....

[toooskies]

Simmons is a tough sell for me. If Simmons is not starting or closing out games (assuming Garland, Mobley, and Allen do), then what's the point?

Not to mention, it's just not clear if he wants to play basketball, anymore. You'd think after all this time away and a change to teams, we'd at least have seen him try to play a few games.

If he's more interested in maintaining a charade of mental illness so he can get more money out of Philly, that's worse in my mind than if he's truly struggling with his confidence. It's not all clear he'd be happy in Cleveland and if he's not or the expectations raise beyond his ability to process - we'll be stuck with him.

In short, we've invested a lot in to team chemistry and I'd like to see where that can take us. If Ben wants to work with the Nets on a buy-out and then sign here for pennies on the dollar, I'd take that as a sign he wants to play, wants to be here, and wants to resurrect his image.

Presumably he'd just sign with the Lakers, though ....

Yep. Simmons is a decent risk/reward proposition for teams looking for a player to take them from bad to competitive and let their other stars develop to take them into contending range, but since we're already in that good range and he's a bad fit, I don't see why we'd want to pay anything.

[jbk1234]

Simmons is a tough sell for me. If Simmons is not starting or closing out games (assuming Garland, Mobley, and Allen do), then what's the point?

Stealing value from the Nets. It’s been a while .


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It's not clear you'd be stealing anything. The role you'd be assigning him on this team wouldn't be worth the max cap slot you'd have to assign to that role.

[tundraknight]

I seen this trade idea of S&T Sexton for Dinwiddie and the Mavs 2025 1st.

https://nbaanalysis.net/2022/07/03/nba-trade-rumors-dallas-mavericks-cleveland-cavaliers-luka-doncic-collin-sexton/2/

Seems like that would continue the reunion of the old Nets with a Allen, LeVert, and Dinwiddie core. Except an improved version. With Garland instead of DLo, and Mobley instead of Rondae Hollis Jefferson.

[toooskies]

I seen this trade idea of S&T Sexton for Dinwiddie and the Mavs 2025 1st.

https://nbaanalysis.net/2022/07/03/nba-trade-rumors-dallas-mavericks-cleveland-cavaliers-luka-doncic-collin-sexton/2/

Seems like that would continue the reunion of the old Nets with a Allen, LeVert, and Dinwiddie core. Except an improved version. With Garland instead of DLo, and Mobley instead of Rondae Hollis Jefferson.

It isn't a legal trade due to BYC rules. Sexton only allows the Cavs to bring back half his salary in trade. I'm also pretty sure the Mavs traded their 2023 1st but it has protections until 2025, meaning they can't trade a 1st until 2027. That's after Luka's current contract expires-- I highly doubt they part with it.

The only way Dallas can take a salary in is to make a 3-way deal that involves the Knicks S&Ting Brunson which gives the Mavs $12.5m extra to work with, then bundle a salary back to the Cavs that's in the $8-12m range, depending on the contract they want Sexton on. That could be any of Kleber/Bullock/Powell reasonably, and you could extend the deal to include Cedi or Windler to use Bertans/THJ/Dinwiddie instead, depending on the number the Mavs would sign Sexton at.

The Knicks don't do this out of the goodness of their hearts, they'd get a 2nd rounder from Dallas just to make it happen.

So the full deal would look something like:
DAL out: Dinwiddie, Brunson (S&T), 2027 1st, some year's 2nd
DAL in: Sexton (S&T), Osman

Cavs out: Sexton (S&T), Osman
Cavs in: Dinwiddie, 2027 1st, rights to nothing of consequence

NYK in: Brunson (S&T), 2nd
NYK out: cap space, rights to nothing of consequence

The Cavs need to lose a roster spot anyway so we're probably more interested in the Bertans/THJ/Dinwiddie level of salary, but those guys aren't really better than Kleber/Bullock/Powell honestly, so maybe rope in Toronto to see what they'd need to turn one of Bertans/THJ/Dinwiddie into Trent or Anunoby.