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Political Roundtable Part XXXI

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Re: Political Roundtable Part XXXI 

Post#301 » by doclinkin » Thu Jul 7, 2022 11:02 pm

pancakes3 wrote:I don't have any solutions, but these are just my observations of the problem with factionalism in this country - that voters are letting the party dictate policy, instead of having our elected officials represent what the voters want. That this is enabled by voters being blindly devoted to their party, and one of those parties - namely the Republican Party, is benefitting from their voters not taking stock of their own lives, feelings, and beliefs.


Still, I think popper shows one way people are able to purge the sickness of blindly voting for one party. If you can say "I don't vote for any political party, they are all corrupt" it frees you to actually examine the facts of any given issue. I think popper has done a pretty solid job of demonstrating that in this thread. He has presented viewpoints then carefully examined the rebuttal and allowed his perspective on a few to be changed. If people in general were able to do the same then our country would be better for it. More careful examination tends to show which policies are counterfactual. Those policies surprise surprise tend to come from the party that does not believe in science, education, etc.

Yes in order to be elected you either have to allow some level of corruption to raise enough $ to keep in front of the cameras. Or you have to have an irresistible natural charisma. So both parties are 'corrupt' to one degree or another. There is a sliding bar on the shame to shameless scale and a careful examination will show which policies broke the scale at the far end. But if it helps you to reach an intelligent conclusion, by all means say "all parties are corrupt" and then vote for the name on the ticket who actually has thoughtful solutions to real world problems instead of voting for the letter in parentheses next to their name.
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Re: Political Roundtable Part XXXI 

Post#302 » by doclinkin » Thu Jul 7, 2022 11:51 pm

Zonkerbl wrote:Which DC superhero hurt Democracy the most?
1. Superman, invincible vigilante who imposes his own judgement of good and evil in an extra judicial process with no accountability because he's invincible
2. Batman, insane billionaire vigilante who imposes his own judgement of good and evil in an extra judicial process with no accountability because he's a billionaire


Superman. Illegal immigrant fleeing disaster in his country. Assimilates to mainstream America, suppressing his natural gifts in order to blend in. His chosen profession is as a journalist, seeking truth and exposés of corrupt behavior. He does not use his power and fame to seize control of the government, elected or not, but does risk exposure on a daily basis putting himself in harms way. The results of his admittedly vigilante use of force nearly always result in the criminals being turned over to the court system. The ultimate Citizen's arrest. Consider the potential mis-use of power from a person who has the ability to both see through walls and listen in on any private conversation. Given the hand he was dealt, he does a pretty admirable job of following the rules. That is one of his 'weaknesses' in the literature, that he is the Big Blue Boy Scout who follows the rules. And he can be manipulated in this way by those who exploit the rules in their favor.

It is ironic or perhaps appropriate that he exemplifies american exceptionalism to the extent that the motto attached to him is that he is the protector of 'Truth, Justice, and the American Way". 'American way' as exemplified by the preamble to the Constitution and the poem at the feet of that giant metal lady in New York harbor. The irony is that he is held to this code and kept within a moral boundary by the spiritual practice of following that foreign culture. He regularly turns to counsel from the recorded spirits of a council of elders from his ancestral home. Still this strict code of ethics of that alien culture sintered well with the wholesome middle American values of the Kansas upbringing of his adoptive parents, the same sort of solid grounding in hard work, humility, and community that was refereed to by Barack Obama in helping shape his own american nature.

Vers.

Batman. Childhood trauma ruined any chance of a normal life, as did his inheritance of a multi-billion dollar empire. Still, despite this he also inherited the values of his trust fund father who eschewed the good life to become a medical doctor and opened clinics in the poorest neighborhoods. Even as an admittedly disturbed and violent adult, he continued this practice, not with hands on care but with funding to this and many other philanthropic organizations, anonymously so as not to receive any tax relief etc for the work. Likewise he donates to the political campaigns of politicians who work towards helping the disadvantaged.

Still, the shock of the violent death of his parents found expression in a rage for justice that drove him to become the "World's Greatest Detective" as well as an olympic level athlete, grandmaster martial artist, inventor, etc. The question of how to properly sublimate trauma into personal accomplishment is sidetracked by the fact that he clearly has never recovered from it. No amount of personal drive can overcome the fact that his coping mechanism for dealing with the violent trauma in his past is to dress up in a onesie and run around on rooftops beating people up. He has learned to become the thing he fears, and use that fear against people who would commit violence on people with less power, privilege, etc. In so doing though he is willing to inculcate a series of youths in his unbalanced crusade to become the physical and violent representation of karma on those who use force for personal gain. At least one of his adopted underage charges has died as a result. Thousands of cases of child endangerment could be leveled against him. Among other charges.

His moral code has one limit: he refuses to use lethal force. His training allows him to execute his brutal justice to the very boundary of this hard edged code. He will brutalize a malefactor to hospitalization and disability, but in theory, not to the grave.

He has many times run across the law, and has been hunted for prosecution by attorneys at law. He evaded prosecution by the agency of a rogue police commissioner who sanctioned his extra legal activities as a counter to the evident fact that the police department itself, and judicial system, had been corrupted to the core. Other dangerous criminals were systematically evading legal consequences by threat and bribes. The Dark Knight mainly evades arrest by, well, being evasive. You can't lock up what you can't catch. If he were caught and prosecuted his own code would not allow him to evade justice simply by the ability to hire better lawyers. Though given his indomitable will, and the laws of the Superhero universe, he would surely successfully act as his own counsel, exposing the corruption of his opponents or citing an obscure clause that proves the justice of his action. If he were successfully prosecuted it would probably be simply that he needed to infiltrate the prisons to track down some elusive bad actor. Though given his ninja training he likely would not have to take that step.

Batman provides a more compelling and interesting protagonist in large part because conflict is interesting. But Superman is emblematic of the core principles of our founding documents, ignoring political party to attempt to serve the general welfare of this Union and of humanity as a whole. Our country has done a terrible job of exporting our civic values, and of living up to them, but there is a reason why Superman has traditionally been a beloved figure among the children of first generation immigrants, where he is viewed as corny by folks who grew up here. Makes sense though given that he was created by two jewish kids whose parents assimilated in Ohio after fleeing persecution and pogroms of eastern Europe.
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Re: Political Roundtable Part XXXI 

Post#303 » by Pointgod » Fri Jul 8, 2022 12:22 am

Good news!

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Re: Political Roundtable Part XXXI 

Post#304 » by montestewart » Fri Jul 8, 2022 4:50 am

Zonkerbl wrote:Which DC superhero hurt Democracy the most?
1. Superman, invincible vigilante who imposes his own judgement of good and evil in an extra judicial process with no accountability because he's invincible
2. Batman, insane billionaire vigilante who imposes his own judgement of good and evil in an extra judicial process with no accountability because he's a billionaire

Both of them lost their parents tragically, received no counseling, and entered adulthood completely ****ed up and very much in denial. They both tried to offset their tragic losses of control by being tight ass hall monitors and snitches. But which is worse? I’ll go with Batman. You kill Superman with Kryptonite, there is no other full-sized Kryptonian waiting in the wings to tyrannically see through your clothes. You kill Batman and another billionaire super hero takes his place immediately. Money has really killed superherodom. Plus, I tend to rate maximizing native abilities over cosplay funded by daddy’s money
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Re: Political Roundtable Part XXXI 

Post#305 » by dobrojim » Fri Jul 8, 2022 4:57 am

dorianwrite wrote:A historical incident I suspect most don't know about, but this is hardly the first time that Florida has been an epicenter of state-sponsored anti-gay prejudice. The late '50s/early '60s Johns Committee is fascinating, especially for its contemporary resonance: https://lambdaliterary.org/2012/10/communists-and-perverts-under-the-palms-the-johns-committee-in-florida-1956-1965-by-stacy-braukman/


The whole Anita Bryant led thing back in the 70s?

https://www.nbcnews.com/nbc-out/out-news/1970s-christian-crusader-anita-bryant-helped-spawn-floridas-lgbtq-cult-rcna24215
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Re: Political Roundtable Part XXXI 

Post#306 » by FAH1223 » Fri Jul 8, 2022 3:40 pm

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Re: Political Roundtable Part XXXI 

Post#307 » by Zonkerbl » Fri Jul 8, 2022 4:00 pm

doclinkin wrote:
Zonkerbl wrote:Which DC superhero hurt Democracy the most?
1. Superman, invincible vigilante who imposes his own judgement of good and evil in an extra judicial process with no accountability because he's invincible
2. Batman, insane billionaire vigilante who imposes his own judgement of good and evil in an extra judicial process with no accountability because he's a billionaire


Superman. Illegal immigrant fleeing disaster in his country. Assimilates to mainstream America, suppressing his natural gifts in order to blend in. His chosen profession is as a journalist, seeking truth and exposés of corrupt behavior. He does not use his power and fame to seize control of the government, elected or not, but does risk exposure on a daily basis putting himself in harms way. The results of his admittedly vigilante use of force nearly always result in the criminals being turned over to the court system. The ultimate Citizen's arrest. Consider the potential mis-use of power from a person who has the ability to both see through walls and listen in on any private conversation. Given the hand he was dealt, he does a pretty admirable job of following the rules. That is one of his 'weaknesses' in the literature, that he is the Big Blue Boy Scout who follows the rules. And he can be manipulated in this way by those who exploit the rules in their favor.

It is ironic or perhaps appropriate that he exemplifies american exceptionalism to the extent that the motto attached to him is that he is the protector of 'Truth, Justice, and the American Way". 'American way' as exemplified by the preamble to the Constitution and the poem at the feet of that giant metal lady in New York harbor. The irony is that he is held to this code and kept within a moral boundary by the spiritual practice of following that foreign culture. He regularly turns to counsel from the recorded spirits of a council of elders from his ancestral home. Still this strict code of ethics of that alien culture sintered well with the wholesome middle American values of the Kansas upbringing of his adoptive parents, the same sort of solid grounding in hard work, humility, and community that was refereed to by Barack Obama in helping shape his own american nature.

Vers.

Batman. Childhood trauma ruined any chance of a normal life, as did his inheritance of a multi-billion dollar empire. Still, despite this he also inherited the values of his trust fund father who eschewed the good life to become a medical doctor and opened clinics in the poorest neighborhoods. Even as an admittedly disturbed and violent adult, he continued this practice, not with hands on care but with funding to this and many other philanthropic organizations, anonymously so as not to receive any tax relief etc for the work. Likewise he donates to the political campaigns of politicians who work towards helping the disadvantaged.

Still, the shock of the violent death of his parents found expression in a rage for justice that drove him to become the "World's Greatest Detective" as well as an olympic level athlete, grandmaster martial artist, inventor, etc. The question of how to properly sublimate trauma into personal accomplishment is sidetracked by the fact that he clearly has never recovered from it. No amount of personal drive can overcome the fact that his coping mechanism for dealing with the violent trauma in his past is to dress up in a onesie and run around on rooftops beating people up. He has learned to become the thing he fears, and use that fear against people who would commit violence on people with less power, privilege, etc. In so doing though he is willing to inculcate a series of youths in his unbalanced crusade to become the physical and violent representation of karma on those who use force for personal gain. At least one of his adopted underage charges has died as a result. Thousands of cases of child endangerment could be leveled against him. Among other charges.

His moral code has one limit: he refuses to use lethal force. His training allows him to execute his brutal justice to the very boundary of this hard edged code. He will brutalize a malefactor to hospitalization and disability, but in theory, not to the grave.

He has many times run across the law, and has been hunted for prosecution by attorneys at law. He evaded prosecution by the agency of a rogue police commissioner who sanctioned his extra legal activities as a counter to the evident fact that the police department itself, and judicial system, had been corrupted to the core. Other dangerous criminals were systematically evading legal consequences by threat and bribes. The Dark Knight mainly evades arrest by, well, being evasive. You can't lock up what you can't catch. If he were caught and prosecuted his own code would not allow him to evade justice simply by the ability to hire better lawyers. Though given his indomitable will, and the laws of the Superhero universe, he would surely successfully act as his own counsel, exposing the corruption of his opponents or citing an obscure clause that proves the justice of his action. If he were successfully prosecuted it would probably be simply that he needed to infiltrate the prisons to track down some elusive bad actor. Though given his ninja training he likely would not have to take that step.

Batman provides a more compelling and interesting protagonist in large part because conflict is interesting. But Superman is emblematic of the core principles of our founding documents, ignoring political party to attempt to serve the general welfare of this Union and of humanity as a whole. Our country has done a terrible job of exporting our civic values, and of living up to them, but there is a reason why Superman has traditionally been a beloved figure among the children of first generation immigrants, where he is viewed as corny by folks who grew up here. Makes sense though given that he was created by two jewish kids whose parents assimilated in Ohio after fleeing persecution and pogroms of eastern Europe.


This is the cop union rep talking. I imagine the reality is much more like The Boys. Problem is The Boys doesn't have a Batman equivalent so you can't have that argument in that universe. Huge flaw imho.
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Re: Political Roundtable Part XXXI 

Post#308 » by Zonkerbl » Fri Jul 8, 2022 4:45 pm

Pointgod wrote:Good news!



Yeah it's predictable that the Roe v. Wade beheading of the hostage by the SCOTUS would have an effect on polls. But polls have been pretty crappy in predicting the overall election, largely because of gerrymandering and the oversized value of rural votes in flyover states. Currently the Dems have to win by 7% nationally just to break even on the POTUS and House votes.

But every cloud has a silver lining and the Republican overreach on Roe v Wade hopefully will bite them in the butt (as I had predicted earlier). Maybe even enough to cost them the House this year... which would be nice... maybe even enough to cost them seats in the Senate, which would be monumental.

Republicans are now proposing that, if the Dems pack the court, they will add 50 seats, one per state, which would preserve the advantage that the rural flyover states have. I am totally for burning the SCOTUS to the ground and a tit for tat exponential expansion of the SCOTUS is an excellent way to do that. There can be nothing worse than the current situation, so burn that crap right to the ground and don't look back. Make the Republicans beg for forgiveness and come crawling back, apologizing for spitting on the rule of law and promising to be better. Maybe... MAYBE then make some meaningful reforms to the SCOTUS. But not until then. Time for the Dems to follow the rational strategy in the prisoner's dilemma - when your opponent betrays you, you play betray right back. FOREVER.
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Re: Political Roundtable Part XXXI 

Post#309 » by doclinkin » Fri Jul 8, 2022 6:33 pm

Zonkerbl wrote:
This is the cop union rep talking. I imagine the reality is much more like The Boys. Problem is The Boys doesn't have a Batman equivalent so you can't have that argument in that universe. Huge flaw imho.



Screed on the semiotics of superheroes redacted. Union rep yes. Formerly. Police union, no. Police Unions seem pretty toxic frankly.
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Re: Political Roundtable Part XXXI 

Post#310 » by Zonkerbl » Fri Jul 8, 2022 9:09 pm

Whelp, I got suspended for a week from twitter for being bitingly sarcastic. That'll cure terrorism!
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Re: Political Roundtable Part XXXI 

Post#311 » by dorianwrite » Fri Jul 8, 2022 10:16 pm

dobrojim wrote:
dorianwrite wrote:A historical incident I suspect most don't know about, but this is hardly the first time that Florida has been an epicenter of state-sponsored anti-gay prejudice. The late '50s/early '60s Johns Committee is fascinating, especially for its contemporary resonance: https://lambdaliterary.org/2012/10/communists-and-perverts-under-the-palms-the-johns-committee-in-florida-1956-1965-by-stacy-braukman/


The whole Anita Bryant led thing back in the 70s?

https://www.nbcnews.com/nbc-out/out-news/1970s-christian-crusader-anita-bryant-helped-spawn-floridas-lgbtq-cult-rcna24215


The Johns Committee predates Bryant by two decades. I highly recommend Braukman's book, a review of which I linked to. She shows the historical antecedents in FL of both Bryant and the current mess with DeSantis. Her book also shows the historical connection between racism and homophobia in FL -- it's a book that makes strong connections between McCarthy/post-McCarthy era politics and the current debacle of right-wingers.
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Re: Political Roundtable Part XXXI 

Post#312 » by Wizardspride » Sat Jul 9, 2022 4:54 am

Read on Twitter
?t=qg_Ri2p2y4xWZvCuta97ug&s=19

President Donald Trump referred to African countries, Haiti and El Salvador as "shithole" nations during a meeting Thursday and asked why the U.S. can't have more immigrants from Norway.
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Re: Political Roundtable Part XXXI 

Post#313 » by Wizardspride » Sat Jul 9, 2022 12:06 pm

Read on Twitter
?t=fYOsSNgnPbq09mPFEOeS-A&s=19

President Donald Trump referred to African countries, Haiti and El Salvador as "shithole" nations during a meeting Thursday and asked why the U.S. can't have more immigrants from Norway.
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Re: Political Roundtable Part XXXI 

Post#314 » by verbal8 » Sat Jul 9, 2022 1:48 pm

Zonkerbl wrote:Republicans are now proposing that, if the Dems pack the court, they will add 50 seats, one per state, which would preserve the advantage that the rural flyover states have. I am totally for burning the SCOTUS to the ground and a tit for tat exponential expansion of the SCOTUS is an excellent way to do that. There can be nothing worse than the current situation, so burn that crap right to the ground and don't look back. Make the Republicans beg for forgiveness and come crawling back, apologizing for spitting on the rule of law and promising to be better. Maybe... MAYBE then make some meaningful reforms to the SCOTUS. But not until then. Time for the Dems to follow the rational strategy in the prisoner's dilemma - when your opponent betrays you, you play betray right back. FOREVER.


Not sure how to get there, but the SCOTUS definitely needs to be reformed. Matching the number of justices to the districts(13) make sense to me. With 13 justices a selection of 5 justices, could help avoid partisan hackery by justices - since the rulings would have to stand on legal rather than strictly ideological basis. Also ending the lifetime appointments would help limit the detachment from reality of many Supreme Court justices.
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Re: Political Roundtable Part XXXI 

Post#315 » by Wizardspride » Sat Jul 9, 2022 8:37 pm

Read on Twitter
?t=7ab_oWPpLzE6RaQ0uDIdiw&s=19

President Donald Trump referred to African countries, Haiti and El Salvador as "shithole" nations during a meeting Thursday and asked why the U.S. can't have more immigrants from Norway.
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Re: Political Roundtable Part XXXI 

Post#316 » by Zonkerbl » Sun Jul 10, 2022 12:46 pm

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Re: Political Roundtable Part XXXI 

Post#317 » by Wizardspride » Sun Jul 10, 2022 3:07 pm

Read on Twitter
?t=KKZO4X_WJENAfICWZIfweQ&s=19

President Donald Trump referred to African countries, Haiti and El Salvador as "shithole" nations during a meeting Thursday and asked why the U.S. can't have more immigrants from Norway.
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Re: Political Roundtable Part XXXI 

Post#318 » by dobrojim » Sun Jul 10, 2022 4:04 pm

He looks cute like that

JUST KIDDING!
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Re: Political Roundtable Part XXXI 

Post#319 » by Zonkerbl » Sun Jul 10, 2022 6:59 pm

verbal8 wrote:
Zonkerbl wrote:Republicans are now proposing that, if the Dems pack the court, they will add 50 seats, one per state, which would preserve the advantage that the rural flyover states have. I am totally for burning the SCOTUS to the ground and a tit for tat exponential expansion of the SCOTUS is an excellent way to do that. There can be nothing worse than the current situation, so burn that crap right to the ground and don't look back. Make the Republicans beg for forgiveness and come crawling back, apologizing for spitting on the rule of law and promising to be better. Maybe... MAYBE then make some meaningful reforms to the SCOTUS. But not until then. Time for the Dems to follow the rational strategy in the prisoner's dilemma - when your opponent betrays you, you play betray right back. FOREVER.


Not sure how to get there, but the SCOTUS definitely needs to be reformed. Matching the number of justices to the districts(13) make sense to me. With 13 justices a selection of 5 justices, could help avoid partisan hackery by justices - since the rulings would have to stand on legal rather than strictly ideological basis. Also ending the lifetime appointments would help limit the detachment from reality of many Supreme Court justices.


I'm thinking more of a 250 judge SCOTUS with 13 member panels chosen randomly for each decision, with term limits and conflict of interest rules that can get you thrown out of the judging business forever.
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Re: Political Roundtable Part XXXI 

Post#320 » by Zonkerbl » Sun Jul 10, 2022 7:29 pm

maybe the possibility for supermajority vote among the judges to overturn a particularly badly written decision, like Dobbs
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