Lebron James/Stephen Curry vs Magic Johnson/Kareem Abdul-Jabbar

[Matt15]

Which duo would you rather build around?

[No-more-rings]

Magic/Kareem. Steph is the weak one out here relatively speaking.

[falcolombardi]

If it is to play in the modern day i would go with james/curry

Not as much cause i think magic and kareem couldnt translate today (i think they would) but because with curry and bron we dont need to theorize it as we have seen it

[70sFan]

Magic and Kareem, as I don't have any concerns with their fit on the court and off the court. Besides, I think they are better - not by a lot (actually the opposite), but still.

[Samurai]

When is this fictional team being built? Is it being built in the last dozen or so years? Or 1980, which was Magic's rookie year? Or the 70's when Kareem was at his peak and we are just pretending that a rookie Magic was just drafted by this team? Different eras will produce different answers.

[Onus]

In today's game? Give me Curry and Lebron. The only way to stop Steph is to double him and you're going to give Lebron James free rim runs ... ha good luck

[JordansBulls]

Magic and Kareem no doubt especially if they come in as rookies. Would Steph become who he became playing with Lebron? I mean no player became a star playing with Lebron. In fact some of the players that were stars/superstar basically became role players playing with Lebron case in point: Bosh, Love, Westbrook

[tsherkin]

Magic and Kareem no doubt especially if they come in as rookies. Would Steph become who he became playing with Lebron? I mean no player became a star playing with Lebron. In fact some of the players that were stars/superstar basically became role players playing with Lebron case in point: Bosh, Love, Westbrook

This isn't really an amazing take because of style of play. Like first-pass examination would show you that shooting volume from iso players is going to go down playing next to a guy who does what they do but far better and with dramatically superior passing. Steph, who has made a concerted effort to be basically the best off-ball player in history, is uniquely suited to play alongside someone like Lebron precisely because he doesn't need the ball most times until he's ready to shoot... And Lebron has shown himself quite capable of playing alongside a 20+ ppg ball-handling guard already en route to a title to begin with in Kyrie and Wade both.

Magic and Kareem, as I don't have any concerns with their fit on the court and off the court. Besides, I think they are better - not by a lot (actually the opposite), but still.

This one flew past me. I can't imagine a situation where the off-ball guy and the on-ball guy don't mesh very well together.

[JordansBulls]

Magic and Kareem no doubt especially if they come in as rookies. Would Steph become who he became playing with Lebron? I mean no player became a star playing with Lebron. In fact some of the players that were stars/superstar basically became role players playing with Lebron case in point: Bosh, Love, Westbrook

This isn't really an amazing take because of style of play. Like first-pass examination would show you that shooting volume from iso players is going to go down playing next to a guy who does what they do but far better and with dramatically superior passing. Steph, who has made a concerted effort to be basically the best off-ball player in history, is uniquely suited to play alongside someone like Lebron precisely because he doesn't need the ball most times until he's ready to shoot... And Lebron has shown himself quite capable of playing alongside a 20+ ppg ball-handling guard already en route to a title to begin with in Kyrie and Wade both.

Magic and Kareem, as I don't have any concerns with their fit on the court and off the court. Besides, I think they are better - not by a lot (actually the opposite), but still.

This one flew past me. I can't imagine a situation where the off-ball guy and the on-ball guy don't mesh very well together.

Steph may have always been a good shooter but never a superstar. He may have been just like Dell playing next to Lebron. Glad it never happened as people would have wished to trade Steph for Klay or something.

[tsherkin]

Steph may have always been a good shooter but never a superstar. He may have been just like Dell playing next to Lebron. Glad it never happened as people would have wished to trade Steph for Klay or something.

What? No, that's hilariously inaccurate. In his rookie season, he was better than the best season his father ever had at any point in his career. He also shot better from 3 on higher volume than Dell ever managed (apart from Dell's 3P% during the 99 lockout year). This just isn't accurate.

Yes, it's very clear that Steph wouldn't be winning scoring titles next to Lebron, but let's not forget that Wade was able to be a 17, 18 FGA/g player with Lebron. Kyrie managed 16.5 in 2015, 16.6 during the title year, 19.7 in 2017. Steph's only taken 20+ FGA/g twice in his actual career to begin with, so shooting volume isn't a huge issue. He isn't an isolation spam artist. There isn't a lot of meat to what you're trying to get at here.

[JordansBulls]

Steph may have always been a good shooter but never a superstar. He may have been just like Dell playing next to Lebron. Glad it never happened as people would have wished to trade Steph for Klay or something.

What? No, that's hilariously inaccurate. In his rookie season, he was better than the best season his father ever had at any point in his career. He also shot better from 3 on higher volume than Dell ever managed (apart from Dell's 3P% during the 99 lockout year). This just isn't accurate.

Yes, it's very clear that Steph wouldn't be winning scoring titles next to Lebron, but let's not forget that Wade was able to be a 17, 18 FGA/g player with Lebron. Kyrie managed 16.5 in 2015, 16.6 during the title year, 19.7 in 2017. Steph's only taken 20+ FGA/g twice in his actual career to begin with, so shooting volume isn't a huge issue. He isn't an isolation spam artist. There isn't a lot of meat to what you're trying to get at here.

You are talking about all players who were stars before playing with Lebron. Steph and Lebron as rookies would be a no no.

[tsherkin]

You are talking about all players who were stars before playing with Lebron. Steph and Lebron as rookies would be a no no.

Steph was very clearly a good player even as a rookie and was a 7th overall pick. Even as a rookie, Lebron was alongside Ricky Davis shooting 14 times per game, man, and Larry Hughes was a 14 FGA/g player in 2007. Lebron was starved for someone who could play alongside him and be good. Steph would have been that immediately. You're not really appreciating how simple it would be, since Lebron would be looking for him and hitting him with passes for threes all game long. Steph would be eating people alive with all the attention on James. MO WILLIAMS was a 13.9 FGA/g player in 2009. Can you imagine what Steph would be doing under a similar circumstance? C'mon, man.

[falcolombardi]

You are talking about all players who were stars before playing with Lebron. Steph and Lebron as rookies would be a no no.

Steph was very clearly a good player even as a rookie and was a 7th overall pick. Even as a rookie, Lebron was alongside Ricky Davis shooting 14 times per game, man, and Larry Hughes was a 14 FGA/g player in 2007. Lebron was starved for someone who could play alongside him and be good. Steph would have been that immediately. You're not really appreciating how simple it would be, since Lebron would be looking for him and hitting him with passes for threes all game long. Steph would be eating people alive with all the attention on James. MO WILLIAMS was a 13.9 FGA/g player in 2009. Can you imagine what Steph would be doing under a similar circumstance? C'mon, man.

I mean, kyrie irving took more shots than lebron in cleveland and so did wade their first year together

Lebron has no issue with sharing the spotlight

[tsherkin]

I mean, kyrie irving took more shots than lebron in cleveland and so did wade their first year together

Lebron has no issue with sharing the spotlight

That is precisely my point, yes. Lebron doesn't have an issue sharing. There's a limited number of shots that you get from iso players and PnR spammers, for sure, but an off-ball guy isn't going to have issues getting shots on a team with a guy who loves to hit shooters.

[JordansBulls]

You are talking about all players who were stars before playing with Lebron. Steph and Lebron as rookies would be a no no.

Steph was very clearly a good player even as a rookie and was a 7th overall pick. Even as a rookie, Lebron was alongside Ricky Davis shooting 14 times per game, man, and Larry Hughes was a 14 FGA/g player in 2007. Lebron was starved for someone who could play alongside him and be good. Steph would have been that immediately. You're not really appreciating how simple it would be, since Lebron would be looking for him and hitting him with passes for threes all game long. Steph would be eating people alive with all the attention on James. MO WILLIAMS was a 13.9 FGA/g player in 2009. Can you imagine what Steph would be doing under a similar circumstance? C'mon, man.

I'm not saying Steph wasn't good as a rookie but playing with Lebron would have been different. It would be like Lebron joining Detroit as a rookie would he had been as good with how they were at least at that time?

[tsherkin]

I'm not saying Steph wasn't good as a rookie but playing with Lebron would have been different. It would be like Lebron joining Detroit as a rookie would he had been as good with how they were at least at that time?

And I'm seeing this isn't correct, no matter what context.

Rookie Lebron desperately needed scoring assistance, and wasn't a moron, so he'd be looking for someone else with ability to take shots. He has proved again and again that he has no problem sharing the ball, especially with guys who can move without the ball. Steph was excellent even as a rookie in this regard, and Lebron was still able to share with other ball handlers... even early in his career. There's literally nothing to support this idea that Steph would have any issue with Lebron at any stage of his career, stylistically or in terms of attitude.

[Colbinii]

You are talking about all players who were stars before playing with Lebron. Steph and Lebron as rookies would be a no no.

Steph was very clearly a good player even as a rookie and was a 7th overall pick. Even as a rookie, Lebron was alongside Ricky Davis shooting 14 times per game, man, and Larry Hughes was a 14 FGA/g player in 2007. Lebron was starved for someone who could play alongside him and be good. Steph would have been that immediately. You're not really appreciating how simple it would be, since Lebron would be looking for him and hitting him with passes for threes all game long. Steph would be eating people alive with all the attention on James. MO WILLIAMS was a 13.9 FGA/g player in 2009. Can you imagine what Steph would be doing under a similar circumstance? C'mon, man.

I'm not saying Steph wasn't good as a rookie but playing with Lebron would have been different. It would be like Lebron joining Detroit as a rookie would he had been as good with how they were at least at that time?

Yeah?

Would Jordan have been worse if he was drafted by LA or Boston?

[JordansBulls]

Steph was very clearly a good player even as a rookie and was a 7th overall pick. Even as a rookie, Lebron was alongside Ricky Davis shooting 14 times per game, man, and Larry Hughes was a 14 FGA/g player in 2007. Lebron was starved for someone who could play alongside him and be good. Steph would have been that immediately. You're not really appreciating how simple it would be, since Lebron would be looking for him and hitting him with passes for threes all game long. Steph would be eating people alive with all the attention on James. MO WILLIAMS was a 13.9 FGA/g player in 2009. Can you imagine what Steph would be doing under a similar circumstance? C'mon, man.

I'm not saying Steph wasn't good as a rookie but playing with Lebron would have been different. It would be like Lebron joining Detroit as a rookie would he had been as good with how they were at least at that time?

Yeah?

Would Jordan have been worse if he was drafted by LA or Boston?

I'm sure if anyone who was drafted with another top player or team would have been worse and not have been what they had become. Since the question is who would you build around I am assuming as rookies and not prime or what they became. It would be like asking how Germany or Japan would have faired had they had the Atom Bomb in WWII instead of the U.S.
BTW I have been to both places and love both countries including the main cities in both. Just using an analogy here.

[homecourtloss]

I mean, kyrie irving took more shots than lebron in cleveland and so did wade their first year together

Lebron has no issue with sharing the spotlight

That is precisely my point, yes. Lebron doesn't have an issue sharing. There's a limited number of shots that you get from iso players and PnR spammers, for sure, but an off-ball guy isn't going to have issues getting shots on a team with a guy who loves to hit shooters.

Yup.

Same old narratives disproven by data that showed what actually happened but posters who never change their minds about their narratives (such as in this thread) will hand wave away it all:

2017 Cavs’ Usage %

Kyrie, 30.8% (only 27.7% of Kyrie’s shots were catch and shoots; 67.4% were pull-ups he created)
LeBron, 30.0%

Playoffs:

Kyrie: 31.1% (only 16.5% were catch and shoots; 70.4% were pull ups he created)
LeBron: 31.6%

2016 Cavs’ Usage %

Kyrie, 29.5% (only 30.9% of Kyrie’s shots were catch and shots; 61.2% were pull-ups he created)
LeBron, 31.4%

Playoffs:

Kyrie: 30.4% (only 22.4% were catch and shoots; 71.8% were pull ups he created)
LeBron: 30.7%

stats.nba.com also has stats on time holding he ball and dribbles per touch. Kyrie held the ball longer when he had it than LeBron did and took more dribbles.

Which other ATG offensive engine had a teammate who had a 30% usage rate? Shaq and Kobe did from 2001-2003 but the narrative about them is much different (aside from the fact that Kobe is much better than Kyrie). AD and James were both at 30% usage in the 2020 regular season and then at a 30-27 split in the playoffs.

Had the juggernaut Warriors and/or injuries to the Cavs didn’t happen, the LeBron/Kyrie pairing wouls also be thought of as differently.

[Colbinii]

I'm not saying Steph wasn't good as a rookie but playing with Lebron would have been different. It would be like Lebron joining Detroit as a rookie would he had been as good with how they were at least at that time?

Yeah?

Would Jordan have been worse if he was drafted by LA or Boston?

I'm sure if anyone who was drafted with another top player or team would have been worse and not have been what they had become. Since the question is who would you build around I am assuming as rookies and not prime or what they became. It would be like asking how Germany or Japan would have faired had they had the Atom Bomb in WWII instead of the U.S.
BTW I have been to both places and love both countries including the main cities in both. Just using an analogy here.

So you agree Magic the true GOAT since he was drafted on a team with Kareem?

Or maybe Duncan since he was drafted onto a team with Robinson?