Tanking- an honest discussion

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Re: Tanking- an honest discussion 

Post#21 » by jrj202 » Fri Jul 8, 2022 12:09 pm

WinterSoldier wrote:
jrj202 wrote:
WinterSoldier wrote:Yes and you'll statistically almost always end up with a Exum or Kanter post lottery and almost never find a Morant of Doncic past the lottery. Partially because of the year in college rule teams are better at drafting and talent doesn't fall in the draft nearly as much as it used to.


Statistically most draft picks don't work out, I just don't think tanking is best for us ATM when we have the assets to quickly retool the roster.


A retool won't get the get a team like the Jazz enough talent to win. They already tried this too many times with almost exactly the same result a first round playoff exit, one time it lead to conference finals and one time the second round. 20+ years of retooling has proved not to work at all for the Jazz.


Thankfully we have Danny Ainge steering the ship now, the guy that built the original big 3 and changed the course of NBA history.
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Re: Tanking- an honest discussion 

Post#22 » by WinterSoldier » Fri Jul 8, 2022 3:16 pm

jrj202 wrote:
WinterSoldier wrote:
jrj202 wrote:
Statistically most draft picks don't work out, I just don't think tanking is best for us ATM when we have the assets to quickly retool the roster.


A retool won't get the get a team like the Jazz enough talent to win. They already tried this too many times with almost exactly the same result a first round playoff exit, one time it lead to conference finals and one time the second round. 20+ years of retooling has proved not to work at all for the Jazz.


Thankfully we have Danny Ainge steering the ship now, the guy that built the original big 3 and changed the course of NBA history.


I'm starting to think you might be Danny Ainge on a burner account.
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Re: Tanking- an honest discussion 

Post#23 » by jrj202 » Fri Jul 8, 2022 3:17 pm

WinterSoldier wrote:
jrj202 wrote:
WinterSoldier wrote:
A retool won't get the get a team like the Jazz enough talent to win. They already tried this too many times with almost exactly the same result a first round playoff exit, one time it lead to conference finals and one time the second round. 20+ years of retooling has proved not to work at all for the Jazz.


Thankfully we have Danny Ainge steering the ship now, the guy that built the original big 3 and changed the course of NBA history.


I'm starting to think you might be Danny Ainge on a burner account.


I think you're a Pat Riley burner
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Re: Tanking- an honest discussion 

Post#24 » by SoCalJazzFan » Fri Jul 8, 2022 5:04 pm

So, it's really too early to tell at this point, but Jabari Smith, the presumptive #1 pick until the Magic at the 11th hour let it be known that they were going to select Banchero instead, looked completely underwhelming in his first summer league game. As the #3 pick, he should look much better than he did. Perhaps this was a bump in the road and he'll be great, or perhaps he will be added to the long list of top 5 draft pick busts.
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Re: Tanking- an honest discussion 

Post#25 » by ForeverRDjazz » Fri Jul 8, 2022 6:03 pm

Is Parker in Utah trying to make the team this year? like to see him play in some summer games.
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Re: Tanking- an honest discussion 

Post#26 » by bkohler » Fri Jul 8, 2022 6:36 pm

SoCalJazzFan wrote:So, it's really too early to tell at this point, but Jabari Smith, the presumptive #1 pick until the Magic at the 11th hour let it be known that they were going to select Banchero instead, looked completely underwhelming in his first summer league game. As the #3 pick, he should look much better than he did. Perhaps this was a bump in the road and he'll be great, or perhaps he will be added to the long list of top 5 draft pick busts.


The math is very much in favor of having a top-five pick be at least a quality player.

This analysis shows that the top five picks have a dramatically increased odd of becoming all-stars:
https://medium.com/@burakcankoc/what-are-the-odds-to-become-an-all-star-for-each-draft-pick-2d113d6b82e5
https://basketnews.com/news-154367-seeing-the-future-estimating-value-of-nba-draft-picks-in-trades.html
https://thedatajocks.com/nba-draft-pick-values/
https://towardsdatascience.com/what-are-the-odds-a-statistical-analysis-of-tanking-in-the-nba-2c5fe228cd67


It also should be noted that lots of recent 'busts' come from the NBA game-changing where big men (think Kanter) have become less valuable but teams had yet to figure that out drastically decreasing the value of those players' careers. Another segment of busts comes from a small selection of teams that seem to have cultural problems that decrease the likelihood of success for their picks, such as the Kings (Bagley, Papagiannais, Mclemore, Robinson) Knicks (Ntilikina) Timberwolves (Wiggins, Patton, Johnson), Suns (Bender, Chriss, Jackson).

Looking at the past ten years here are the sure-fire busts from the top 3 picks:
(Bagley, Okafor, Bennett, Williams, Kidd-Gilchrist)

Going back another ten years you've got Thabeet, Beasley, Mayo, Morison, Millcic, Brown, Swift as busts - that's 12 total busts from 60 players going in the top 3 the last twenty years.

Expanding this out to include top five picks here are other clear misses since 2000:
Bender
Jackson
Hezonja
Exum
Tyrus Thomas
Tskitishvili
Fizer

Which would bring us to 17 busts out of 100 players.

Then you've got a list of serviceable players who played below expectations, and of these had injuries that caused their fall from potential star status:
Evan Turner
Kanter
Jabari Parker
Derrick Favors
Marvin Williams
Emeka Okafor
Jay Williams
Fultz
Dunn

Some players are too young to make a firm decision either way. (Wisemen)

That still leaves 40 of the 60 players drafted that ended up making an all-star team. In fact, since 2000 only 43 (of 240 possible) players have been selected to be an all-star that have been drafted outside of the lottery. Taking it further only 92 of 1771 players drafted outside of the lottery have made an all-star team when drafted outside of the top 14 in the past 50 years.

If we instead look at hall of fame players the argument for tanking gets even more extreme as the first pick or second pick gives you over 30% odds of drafting a hall of famer, with the third pick having 18% odds and every other non lottery pick having less than 1% odds.

No top of that only three players have ever won an MVP that wasn't selected in the lottery in NBA history (Jokic, Nash, Giannis) with only Jokic being drafted after the 15th pick and the other two being the 15th pick.

The other thing that is discounted here is the sheer value of lottery picks- they might not hit every time but the value of a pick in the top five vs a pick in the mid-late first round is dramatic and can be the difference between striking out and hitting a home run when looking to add say, a second star next to Donovan Mitchell.

Something that matters here is what the end goals are, If you're going for a championship history will tell us you need a top-5 pick as only one team in the best 50 years has won a championship without a top-five pick on their roster. (Raptors)

Another factor to consider when it comes to the tanking conversation is the ability of the market to add top-end talent via free agency.

The current lottery/draft system is broken and incentivizes being well... not good. But the incentives are definitely there to rebuild in a dramatic fashion. Additionally hard tanking (sixers style) is no longer as important as lottery odds have been flattened so just being "bottom five bad" gives pretty good odds of landing a quality player.

Tanking also allows for teams to take flyers on younger or underappreciated players that might not make it on a competing team but can develop into quality players in the future. For instance, Joe Ingles signed during the Jazz's latest rebuild; It also allows for teams to rehab the value of players such as Andrew Wiggins.

This is all a numbers game and tanking is an attempt to move those numbers in your favor. Clearly, there is an opportunity cost but tanking shouldn't be dismissed as an effective strategy, multiple teams including the most recent winners (Warriors, Bucks, Lakers) along with their opponents (Celtics, Suns, Heat) all have major assets on their teams acquired via rebuilding or tanking.
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Re: Tanking- an honest discussion 

Post#27 » by SoCalJazzFan » Fri Jul 8, 2022 8:24 pm

bkohler wrote:
The math is very much in favor of having a top-five pick be at least a quality player.

This analysis shows that the top five picks have a dramatically increased odd of becoming all-stars:
https://medium.com/@burakcankoc/what-are-the-odds-to-become-an-all-star-for-each-draft-pick-2d113d6b82e5
https://basketnews.com/news-154367-seeing-the-future-estimating-value-of-nba-draft-picks-in-trades.html
https://thedatajocks.com/nba-draft-pick-values/
https://towardsdatascience.com/what-are-the-odds-a-statistical-analysis-of-tanking-in-the-nba-2c5fe228cd67



The other thing that is discounted here is the sheer value of lottery picks- they might not hit every time but the value of a pick in the top five vs a pick in the mid-late first round is dramatic and can be the difference between striking out and hitting a home run when looking to add say, a second star next to Donovan Mitchell.

The current lottery/draft system is broken and incentivizes being well... not good. But the incentives are definitely there to rebuild in a dramatic fashion. Additionally hard tanking (sixers style) is no longer as important as lottery odds have been flattened so just being "bottom five bad" gives pretty good odds of landing a quality player.

I appreciate the thoughts. I am going to break up your message to address in multiple parts.

The last time the Jazz tanked, I looked to websites and calcuations like you cite above as justification for tanking. However, the data is 30 plus years old, in one case going all the way back to 1950. I would like to see newer data as data going back more than 10 years or so really isn't valauble for various reasons, including the lottery and changes to it over time, and perhaps as you mention the decreased desireability of big men. Maybe there is something to be said about overall improvement in skill and athleticism of newer draftees.

These are the results of the top 5 picks from 2011-2017, which are selected to be within roughly the last 10 years, the players having gone through their entire rookie contract yet still in their prime so we know how they "ended up":
2011
Kyrie
Derrick Williams
Kanter
Tristan Thompson
Jonas V

2012
Anthony Davis
MKG
Beal
Waiters
Thomas Robinson

2013
Anthony Bennett
Victor Oladipo
Otto Porter
Cody Zeller
Alex Len

2014
Wiggins
Jabari
Embiid
Aaron Gordon
Dante Exum

2015
KAT
D'Angelo Russel
Okafur
Porzingis
Hezonga

2016
Simmons
Ingram
Jaylen Brown
Bender
Kriss Dunn

2017
Fultz
Lonzo Ball
Tatum
Josh Jackson
De'Aaron Fox

Looking over this list I would say is pretty underwhelming. Some things stick out to me.

How many true stars are there? Probably less than 20% (I only see 5 or 6 with few other TBD). Of those stars, how many helped the team that drafted them win the Finals? Kyrie, while a head case, is a special talent, yet it was only when Lebron came back that the Cavs were successful. AD only got the Pelicans to the playoffs only twice in seven years. He also needed Lebron to win a Chip, but in LA. Embiid has had most of the success, but all 1st and 2nd round exits. Brown and Tatum might buck the trend. How many of what could be considered stars are still with their original team?

How many of these players are below average or even busts? Quite a few. In fact, if you did a redraft of each of these drafts, many wouldn't still be considered in the top 5, or perhaps even the top 10 or 20. For example, Wiggins was drafted #1, and it wasn't even close. He was supposed to be a generatational talent. Where does he fit in a rough redraft (with their original pick in parenthesis)?
Jokic (41)
Embiid (3)
LaVine (13)
Jerami Grant (39)
Marcus Smart (6)
Capela (25)
Aaron Gordon (4)
Nurkic (16)
Randle (7)
TJ Warren (14)
Joe Harris (33)
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Re: Tanking- an honest discussion 

Post#28 » by SoCalJazzFan » Fri Jul 8, 2022 9:07 pm

bkohler wrote:This is all a numbers game and tanking is an attempt to move those numbers in your favor. Clearly, there is an opportunity cost but tanking shouldn't be dismissed as an effective strategy, multiple teams including the most recent winners (Warriors, Bucks, Lakers) along with their opponents (Celtics, Suns, Heat) all have major assets on their teams acquired via rebuilding or tanking.


I purposely didn't mention the Celtics as they are probably the best argument for tanking in the recent past, and I wanted to see if anyone else brought them up.
They had a bad year and drafted Smart #6 in 2014.
They wisely kept him when they decided to tank two years later.
They netted Brown #3 in 2017 and Tatum #3 in 2018. (BTW, this is really tanking hard and beating the odds to get 2 top three picks in two back to back drafts.)
They needed a few years and some additions including Williams #27 and trading for Horford and White to make it work this past season. It also helps that they are in the East. As fans, we should hope this works out and that the primadonna superteams die out.

The Warriors are also mostly homegrown.
Steph #7
Klay #11
Draymond #35
None in the top 5. Trading for Iguodala (a former #9 pick) is what really pulled them over the top, in my and many others opinion, for the first run. They had KD for two more appearances, but did they really need him? They had Wiggins this last time around, but he was a supporting role player.

The Bucks basically lucked out on getting a superstar, Giannis, with the 15th pick, and have built around him over time, pretty much exclusively with trades.

The Lakers tanked hard from for several years this past decade. The result?
2014- #7 Julius Randle
2015- #2 D'Angelo Russell
2016- #2 Ingram
2017- #2 Lonzo Ball (is the draft rigged?!?)
How did those guys fare? Never a trip to the playoffs. All had been traded away by 2019. Once again, it took the generational talent Lebron James and AD to win the last Chip. I guess you could argue that some of these picks netted them AD, but realistically, Lebron and Ingram and Ball could have won it too.

Heat:
1st iteration- needed Shaq (traded for).
2nd iteration- once again needed the generational talent Lebron James who they traded for.
3rd iteration- Traded for Jimmy Butler (#30 pick) and drafted Bam #14, and the others are just dudes. They just play real hard and selflessly.

So, which is more important the draft or the trades?

Fortunately, the Jazz have the opportunity to use both as they can keep picks (hopefully the more favorable) while trading other firsts to build around their star (who was selected outside #5) and build on a parallel track. They have to as Mitchell won't wait around 5 years to see how the rebuild through the tank/draft works out and if they go full on tank/draft there is the risk that they end up like the Kings, Magic, etc.
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Re: Tanking- an honest discussion 

Post#29 » by bkohler » Fri Jul 8, 2022 9:09 pm

[I appreciate this conversation!]

It is true many of the top picks ended up leaving but it should be noted that they are often traded for lottery picks themselves as they have tremendous value, and Wiggins was underwhelming but as noted I do wonder how much team culture plays into that - If Wiggins went to another team with better culture how would his career look today?
(Personally, I'd slot Wiggins in as the 4/5 pick in that draft)

As for the data being out of date each of those articles above has data starting at or after 1980 with the majority of them focusing on 2000-2020, so they feel fairly accurate to me.

Also, I totally get your point on the latest drafts being hard to know about but I think you can pretty clearly say that Cunningham, Edwards, and Williamson aren't busts, even Ayton I think is clearly not a bust but maybe just 'good'.

I also admit that that segment of lotteries you pointed out don't have a bunch of world changers in them it should be noted that there just wasn't a ton of great players drafted in that span altogether, I see Klay (11), Kawhi (15), Dame (6), Draymond (35), Giannis (15), Gobert (27), Booker (13), Murray (7), Mitchell (13), Bam (15), Jokic(41) as being the only stars not drafted in the top 5 during those years and a common thread is that all but three are selected in the top 15. That's 11 of our 385 players drafted during that time outside of the top picks - compared to AD, Kyrie, Simmons, Brown, Beal, Oladipo, Tatum, Ingram, Embiid, KAT - 10 our of 35 that are/were stars.

The lottery isn't a sure thing, but the odds are dramatically in your favor. Plus free agency, trades, and all other avenues to team growth aren't sure things either. In a world where draft picks are commodities, lottery picks (and the stars that spring from them) have an increasing value which is something that is not true of any other NBA asset.
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Re: Tanking- an honest discussion 

Post#30 » by bkohler » Fri Jul 8, 2022 9:19 pm

SoCalJazzFan wrote:
bkohler wrote:This is all a numbers game and tanking is an attempt to move those numbers in your favor. Clearly, there is an opportunity cost but tanking shouldn't be dismissed as an effective strategy, multiple teams including the most recent winners (Warriors, Bucks, Lakers) along with their opponents (Celtics, Suns, Heat) all have major assets on their teams acquired via rebuilding or tanking.


I purposely didn't mention the Celtics as they are probably the best argument for tanking in the recent past, and I wanted to see if anyone else brought them up.
They had a bad year and drafted Smart #6 in 2014.
They wisely kept him when they decided to tank two years later.
They netted Brown #3 in 2017 and Tatum #3 in 2018. (BTW, this is really tanking hard and beating the odds to get 2 top three picks in two back to back drafts.)
They needed a few years and some additions including Williams #27 and trading for Horford and White to make it work this past season. It also helps that they are in the East. As fans, we should hope this works out and that the primadonna superteams die out.

The Warriors are also mostly homegrown.
Steph #7
Klay #11
Draymond #35
None in the top 5. Trading for Iguodala (a former #9 pick) is what really pulled them over the top, in my and many others opinion, for the first run. They had KD for two more appearances, but did they really need him? They had Wiggins this last time around, but he was a supporting role player.

The Bucks basically lucked out on getting a superstar, Giannis, with the 15th pick, and have built around him over time, pretty much exclusively with trades.

The Lakers tanked hard from for several years this past decade. The result?
2014- #7 Julius Randle
2015- #2 D'Angelo Russell
2016- #2 Ingram
2017- #2 Lonzo Ball (is the draft rigged?!?)
How did those guys fare? Never a trip to the playoffs. All had been traded away by 2019. Once again, it took the generational talent Lebron James and AD to win the last Chip. I guess you could argue that some of these picks netted them AD, but realistically, Lebron and Ingram and Ball could have won it too.

Heat:
1st iteration- needed Shaq (traded for).
2nd iteration- once again needed the generational talent Lebron James who they traded for.
3rd iteration- Traded for Jimmy Butler (#30 pick) and drafted Bam #14, and the others are just dudes. They just play real hard and selflessly.

So, which is more important the draft or the trades?

Fortunately, the Jazz have the opportunity to use both as they can keep picks (hopefully the more favorable) while trading other firsts to build around their star (who was selected outside #5) and build on a parallel track. They have to as Mitchell won't wait around 5 years to see how the rebuild through the tank/draft works out and if they go full on tank/draft there is the risk that they end up like the Kings, Magic, etc.



I think you're underselling the tanking done by the Warriors, Lakers, and Bucks. I don't think the point is that you're going to draft your franchises savior in the draft, that rarely happens. But it has been proven by each of these teams that lottery assets are powerful trade chips to rebuild your roster. The Lakers moved all of those pieces listed for AD, without the tank there's no AD. The Warriors (as us poor jazz fans recall) purposely tanked to make sure their pick didn't get conveyed to us and then used it to improve their team. All of those homegrown assets came while rebuilding. Even Giannis and the Bucks can be easily forgotten as a tanking team who went all in tanking and ended up with Jabari but it's forgotten that they drafted in the top ten in ten of the last twenty seasons which allowed them to make many of the trades to build around Giannis. (although it should be noted that the majority of the title team was awesome free agent signings around Giannis... it just helps to have one of the best players ever) Even the Heat in each of those instances had high lottery picks on those teams that allowed them to make the trades to be in contention.
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Re: Tanking- an honest discussion 

Post#31 » by bkohler » Fri Jul 8, 2022 9:43 pm

Another factor to be considered is... how hard is it to tank during a given year? Some years it's exceptionally hard to tank because you have multiple teams in a race to the bottom. Other years it's quite easy, just don't be good and you'll get a high lottery pick but no need to sell the house.

2023 looks interesting because you seem to have a lot of teams trying to be competitive and relatively few in rebuilding mode. There are a few tiers of teams:

The obvious rebuilds:
San Antonio
Pacers
Jazz

The young but not great team:
Thunder
Rockets (?)
Hornets
Pistons
Magic

Think they're going to be good but probably are play-in:
Knicks
Kings
Lakers
Blazers
Bulls
Nets
Wizards

"Contenders":
Grizzlies
Mavericks
Nuggets
Suns
Timberwolves
Clippers (?)
Pelicans
76ers
Raptors
Hawks

Real Contenders"
Celtics
Heat
Warriors
Bucks


It feels like this year is a year when the Jazz could bottom out without trading away everything that's not tied down. Keep Mitchell and a few other promising young guys, move anything else for value and you pretty much automatically have a bottom 5 record and pretty decent odds at a top 3 pick. It's the 'soft tank' instead of the 'hard tank' where you trade away Mitchell and be historically bad.
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Re: Tanking- an honest discussion 

Post#32 » by Hoops Addict » Wed Jul 13, 2022 2:09 am

To tank, we must trade the best players for picks, not other good players......look how OKC pickes #2. Getting a top 5 pick for being bad signals the end of tanking.
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Re: Tanking- an honest discussion 

Post#33 » by Crunch 99 » Wed Jul 13, 2022 3:35 pm

Hoops Addict wrote:To tank, we must trade the best players for picks, not other good players......look how OKC pickes #2. Getting a top 5 pick for being bad signals the end of tanking.


I am not in favor of throwing games, but it seems like it would be pretty easy to finish in the bottom quarter of western teams, even if we take on some young players with high upside potential like Barrett. Imo, the Nuggets, Blazers, Clippers, Wolves, Pelicans and OKC are all set to start the season with more competitive rosters than last season. GS is in position to offset any age related decline with the ongoing improvement of talented young players. The Lakers could be significantly better if AD manages to stay healthy. The Suns roster is in flux, but they will likely land on their feet and still be pretty competitive with Booker and Paul. The only western teams that are already set to be dramatically less competitive are the Jazz and Spurs imo.
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Re: Tanking- an honest discussion 

Post#34 » by SoCalJazzFan » Wed Jul 13, 2022 10:07 pm

Hoops Addict wrote:To tank, we must trade the best players for picks, not other good players......look how OKC pickes #2. Getting a top 5 pick for being bad signals the end of tanking.

Unfortunately, from what I have seen, it is at least 2 or 3 years of trying to get top 5 picks that a tank requires, not just one season. If the Jazz TankNote (as was cleverly mentioned by another poster), then expect at least a 3-4 year process.
(Edit: going off the Ainge Celtic blueprint, you either have 8 years from the Smart draft, 5 years from the Jaylen Brown draft or 4 years from the Tatum draft, although it required all 3 and then some, to become a contender).
(edit to my edit: Celtics had the benefit of using the Nets picks while still trying to build up a decent team. Jazz would only have that luxury if they trade for young players and either TWolves or Knicks (or whomever) end up being really bad).
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Re: Tanking- an honest discussion 

Post#35 » by dr0welf » Wed Jul 13, 2022 11:52 pm

I don't think I want to sit through a tank. That is not fun. I remember the rebuild after Stockton to Malone. Something similar is what I'm expecting.
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Re: Tanking- an honest discussion 

Post#36 » by WinterSoldier » Thu Jul 14, 2022 12:19 am

SoCalJazzFan wrote:
bkohler wrote:
The math is very much in favor of having a top-five pick be at least a quality player.

This analysis shows that the top five picks have a dramatically increased odd of becoming all-stars:
https://medium.com/@burakcankoc/what-are-the-odds-to-become-an-all-star-for-each-draft-pick-2d113d6b82e5
https://basketnews.com/news-154367-seeing-the-future-estimating-value-of-nba-draft-picks-in-trades.html
https://thedatajocks.com/nba-draft-pick-values/
https://towardsdatascience.com/what-are-the-odds-a-statistical-analysis-of-tanking-in-the-nba-2c5fe228cd67



The other thing that is discounted here is the sheer value of lottery picks- they might not hit every time but the value of a pick in the top five vs a pick in the mid-late first round is dramatic and can be the difference between striking out and hitting a home run when looking to add say, a second star next to Donovan Mitchell.

The current lottery/draft system is broken and incentivizes being well... not good. But the incentives are definitely there to rebuild in a dramatic fashion. Additionally hard tanking (sixers style) is no longer as important as lottery odds have been flattened so just being "bottom five bad" gives pretty good odds of landing a quality player.

I appreciate the thoughts. I am going to break up your message to address in multiple parts.

The last time the Jazz tanked, I looked to websites and calcuations like you cite above as justification for tanking. However, the data is 30 plus years old, in one case going all the way back to 1950. I would like to see newer data as data going back more than 10 years or so really isn't valauble for various reasons, including the lottery and changes to it over time, and perhaps as you mention the decreased desireability of big men. Maybe there is something to be said about overall improvement in skill and athleticism of newer draftees.

These are the results of the top 5 picks from 2011-2017, which are selected to be within roughly the last 10 years, the players having gone through their entire rookie contract yet still in their prime so we know how they "ended up":
2011
Kyrie
Derrick Williams
Kanter
Tristan Thompson
Jonas V

2012
Anthony Davis
MKG
Beal
Waiters
Thomas Robinson

2013
Anthony Bennett
Victor Oladipo
Otto Porter
Cody Zeller
Alex Len

2014
Wiggins
Jabari
Embiid
Aaron Gordon
Dante Exum

2015
KAT
D'Angelo Russel
Okafur
Porzingis
Hezonga

2016
Simmons
Ingram
Jaylen Brown
Bender
Kriss Dunn

2017
Fultz
Lonzo Ball
Tatum
Josh Jackson
De'Aaron Fox

Looking over this list I would say is pretty underwhelming. Some things stick out to me.

How many true stars are there? Probably less than 20% (I only see 5 or 6 with few other TBD). Of those stars, how many helped the team that drafted them win the Finals? Kyrie, while a head case, is a special talent, yet it was only when Lebron came back that the Cavs were successful. AD only got the Pelicans to the playoffs only twice in seven years. He also needed Lebron to win a Chip, but in LA. Embiid has had most of the success, but all 1st and 2nd round exits. Brown and Tatum might buck the trend. How many of what could be considered stars are still with their original team?

How many of these players are below average or even busts? Quite a few. In fact, if you did a redraft of each of these drafts, many wouldn't still be considered in the top 5, or perhaps even the top 10 or 20. For example, Wiggins was drafted #1, and it wasn't even close. He was supposed to be a generatational talent. Where does he fit in a rough redraft (with their original pick in parenthesis)?
Jokic (41)
Embiid (3)
LaVine (13)
Jerami Grant (39)
Marcus Smart (6)
Capela (25)
Aaron Gordon (4)
Nurkic (16)
Randle (7)
TJ Warren (14)
Joe Harris (33)


2018
Ayton
Bagley
Doncic
Jackson
Young

2019

Williamson
Morant
Barrett
Hunter
Garland

2020

Edwards
Wiseman
Ball
Williams
Okoro

2021

Cunningham
Green
Mobley
Barnes
Suggs

Nice try leaving out last four drafts that prove how much better teams are at drafting. These last four drafts show how incredibly valuable a top 5 pick is in the draft.
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Re: Tanking- an honest discussion 

Post#37 » by jrj202 » Thu Jul 14, 2022 2:52 am

#FirstPick4Vic
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Re: Tanking- an honest discussion 

Post#38 » by ForeverRDjazz » Thu Jul 14, 2022 2:57 am

jrj202 wrote:#FirstPick4Vic
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You think Jared is okay with Victor taking his number?
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Re: Tanking- an honest discussion 

Post#39 » by SoCalJazzFan » Thu Jul 14, 2022 5:04 am

WinterSoldier wrote:
SoCalJazzFan wrote:
bkohler wrote:

These are the results of the top 5 picks from 2011-2017, which are selected to be within roughly the last 10 years, the players having gone through their entire rookie contract yet still in their prime so we know how they "ended up":

2018
Ayton
Bagley
Doncic
Jackson
Young

2019

Williamson
Morant
Barrett
Hunter
Garland

2020

Edwards
Wiseman
Ball
Williams
Okoro

2021

Cunningham
Green
Mobley
Barnes
Suggs

Nice try leaving out last four drafts that prove how much better teams are at drafting. These last four drafts show how incredibly valuable a top 5 pick is in the draft.


Reading is fundamental. A lot of the guys drafted the past few years are still unknowns as to whether they will actually help their team be contenders. That is why I used players that have been drafted recently, are still in their prime yet we now know if they are that guy or not.
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Re: Tanking- an honest discussion 

Post#40 » by WinterSoldier » Thu Jul 14, 2022 7:43 am

SoCalJazzFan wrote:
WinterSoldier wrote:
SoCalJazzFan wrote:


Reading is fundamental. A lot of the guys drafted the past few years are still unknowns as to whether they will actually help their team be contenders. That is why I used players that have been drafted recently, are still in their prime yet we now know if they are that guy or not.


I read what you said you stopped at an arbitrary point that helped your argument, knowing it's clear the quality of top 5 picks are getting better. You know Doncic, Morant are that guy already and Young, Garland, Edwards, and Ball are well on their way with Zion, Cunningham, Mobley, and Barnes showing definitive signs. Also Ayton, Jackson, Barrett, Hunter, Williams, Green all showing something, Okoro and Bagley are the only bad picks in four years.

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