Kevin Durant vs. Dwyane Wade - who you got?

[dribble1614]

yes, peak wade is 2006 and 2009 and peak durant is 2017 and 2014.

[dribble1614]

poll is split at 50 / 50. what a close call.

[capfan33]

Peak is a toss-up but career at this point has to be KD even though I'm not especially high on KD. With that being said, I trust D-Wade more to lead a team to a title which probably means I have his peak higher.

[picko]

Durant is pretty comfortably ahead for career - Wade's window as a superstar is simply too short. In terms of peak, it's more of a toss-up. I think you could create a pretty compelling argument for either.

[Ginoboleee]

Peak is a toss-up but career at this point has to be KD even though I'm not especially high on KD. With that being said, I trust D-Wade more to lead a team to a title which probably means I have his peak higher.

I too would trust D-Wade to be more likely to lead a team to a title.
Now, having said that, I trust KD to...
a. jump ship to the best team in the league after said team beats yours and you have a unique opportunity to sign with any team.
b. win multiple championships in a perfect situation, but be miserable, and leave seeking to lead your own team.
c. inexplicably fall into a twisted bromance with Kyrie, in which they both feed each other's superiority/narcissism until both treat fans/writers with disdain for failing to recognize their inherent Esoteric Brilliance As Hoopers.
d. demonstrate consistently underwhelming leadership, even by his own admission.
e. usurp the GM as you ad-lib a chaotic path of internal organizational chaos to dismantle all team culture, depth, authority, respect, hope.
f. demand a trade once times get tough
g1. offer a list of preferred destinations that are all rough and tumble up and coming teams looking to catch a break.
(sorry that was a typo)
g2. offer a list of preferred destinations that are, like in Step A, already excellent teams.

Rinse, repeat.

[JordansBulls]

Wade, he won for a franchise that never won before and that drafted him.

[capfan33]

Peak is a toss-up but career at this point has to be KD even though I'm not especially high on KD. With that being said, I trust D-Wade more to lead a team to a title which probably means I have his peak higher.

I too would trust D-Wade to be more likely to lead a team to a title.
Now, having said that, I trust KD to...
a. jump ship to the best team in the league after said team beats yours and you have a unique opportunity to sign with any team.
b. win multiple championships in a perfect situation, but be miserable, and leave seeking to lead your own team.
c. inexplicably fall into a twisted bromance with Kyrie, in which they both feed each other's superiority/narcissism until both treat fans/writers with disdain for failing to recognize their inherent Esoteric Brilliance As Hoopers.
d. demonstrate consistently underwhelming leadership, even by his own admission.
e. usurp the GM as you ad-lib a chaotic path of internal organizational chaos to dismantle all team culture, depth, authority, respect, hope.
f. demand a trade once times get tough
g1. offer a list of preferred destinations that are all rough and tumble up and coming teams looking to catch a break.
(sorry that was a typo)
g2. offer a list of preferred destinations that are, like in Step A, already excellent teams.

Rinse, repeat.

Lmao, thats actually pretty funny but I generally don't care too much about most of that stuff, I just don't like the fact that Durant joining a superteam has caused people to overrate his actual abilities as a player, which while great are not as good as some people make them out.

[dribble1614]

Wade, he won for a franchise that never won before and that drafted him.

great point.

[LukaTheGOAT]

KD has the edge in career, he has so many productive seasons where he is among the best scorers in the world.

For peak, I go Wade.

Wade certainly seems to have the bigger impact footprint between the two in terms of metrics that have full-season data for their peaks.

Wade
PIPM-7.24
RAPTOR-9.39
BPM-10.6
TWPR-70.68
Scaled APM/g-7.3

KD
PIPM (Only have up through 2020)-6.15
RAPTOR-7.54
BPM-10.2
TWPR (Only have up through 2020)-67.61
Scaled APM/g (only goes up through 17)-6.3

The numbers generally suggest that Wade at his best was more valuable to his team than Durant was to his. However, opinions may vary if you prefer extra shooting or someone who can take less dribbles to get their points. However, I am partial to someone who can be a main creator for their team, and make decisions. I think Wade's ability to always find his way to the rim is MJ-esque and I favor his package over Durant's.

Also Wade seems to be a much less error prone defender than Durant, while also just in general being more active. So while defense could go either way, I think I might lean Wade on that side of the ball.

P.S.-Darko has something that goes back to 1980 in terms of attempting to evaluate projected peak performance going forward (looks at all of a player's past games and takes the into account)...and Wade looks great, among the very greatest peaks dating back to at least 1980

Read on Twitter

[Wolfy211]

How much of Wade's peak falls outside of the 1st Mav's Final, which is easily an All Time Top 10 NBA Worst Ref'ing Debacle?

(Right now, some truth-telling-DWade fan is giggling a bit too loudly... because don't you know [shrill whistle sound] the Mavs just got called for ANOTHER foul sending DWade back to the line!)

With a fair whistle, the Mavs don't even get past the Spurs that year. Surely you remember that joke of a game where Duncan fouled out on some BS and the Mavs shot 50 free throws.

Didn't the Mavs set like a postseason free record that year?

[dribble1614]

KD has the edge in career, he has so many productive seasons where he is among the best scorers in the world.

For peak, I go Wade.

Wade certainly seems to have the bigger impact footprint between the two in terms of metrics that have full-season data for their peaks.

Wade
PIPM-7.24
RAPTOR-9.39
BPM-10.6
TWPR-70.68
Scaled APM/g-7.3

KD
PIPM (Only have up through 2020)-6.15
RAPTOR-7.54
BPM-10.2
TWPR (Only have up through 2020)-67.61
Scaled APM/g (only goes up through 17)-6.3

The numbers generally suggest that Wade at his best was more valuable to his team than Durant was to his. However, opinions may vary if you prefer extra shooting or someone who can take less dribbles to get their points. However, I am partial to someone who can be a main creator for their team, and make decisions. I think Wade's ability to always find his way to the rim is MJ-esque and I favor his package over Durant's.

Also Wade seems to be a much less error prone defender than Durant, while also just in general being more active. So while defense could go either way, I think I might lean Wade on that side of the ball.

P.S.-Darko has something that goes back to 1980 in terms of attempting to evaluate projected peak performance going forward (looks at all of a player's past games and takes the into account)...and Wade looks great, among the very greatest peaks dating back to at least 1980

Read on Twitter

yes that is partly true, however pipm and raptor are highly skewed towards high usage ball handlers in analyzing regression analysis and mean squared errors. hence why per is probably the better advanced stat out there among all the advanced stats, far more so than bpm, vorp and raptor.

[LukaTheGOAT]

KD has the edge in career, he has so many productive seasons where he is among the best scorers in the world.

For peak, I go Wade.

Wade certainly seems to have the bigger impact footprint between the two in terms of metrics that have full-season data for their peaks.

Wade
PIPM-7.24
RAPTOR-9.39
BPM-10.6
TWPR-70.68
Scaled APM/g-7.3

KD
PIPM (Only have up through 2020)-6.15
RAPTOR-7.54
BPM-10.2
TWPR (Only have up through 2020)-67.61
Scaled APM/g (only goes up through 17)-6.3

The numbers generally suggest that Wade at his best was more valuable to his team than Durant was to his. However, opinions may vary if you prefer extra shooting or someone who can take less dribbles to get their points. However, I am partial to someone who can be a main creator for their team, and make decisions. I think Wade's ability to always find his way to the rim is MJ-esque and I favor his package over Durant's.

Also Wade seems to be a much less error prone defender than Durant, while also just in general being more active. So while defense could go either way, I think I might lean Wade on that side of the ball.

P.S.-Darko has something that goes back to 1980 in terms of attempting to evaluate projected peak performance going forward (looks at all of a player's past games and takes the into account)...and Wade looks great, among the very greatest peaks dating back to at least 1980

Read on Twitter

yes that is partly true, however pipm and raptor are highly skewed towards high usage ball handlers in analyzing regression analysis and mean squared errors. hence why per is probably the better advanced stat out there among all the advanced stats, far more so than bpm, vorp and raptor.

I am not sure if I am necessarily on board with the idea that PER is necessarily better at whiffing out this bias than some of the stats I mentioned, especially when you look at the historical leaderboards, and see that the stars of today (who are more heliocentric than the past), litter the top of the leaderboards.

I also think it is especially difficult for PER to capture defensive impact with what little inputs it has for that end.

Nonetheless I guess PER is in agreement with the other metrics,

Wade's Peak in PER-30.4

Durant's Peak in PER-29.8

[trex_8063]

So.......which question are you wanting answered in the poll?

Better peak?
Or better career (i.e. all-time rank)?

[CodeBreaker]

KD never reached 06 Wade's greatness

[f4p]

Objectively KD ranks higher all time. Wade’s peak and prime was better when healthy, and i’d still rather have him to build around even despite the worse longevity. For one, he seems more loyal

loyalty seems to be extremely strongly correlated to "win a title early in your career" and not any internal sense of loyalty. people who win early have adoring fans and no legacy pressure and stay because it's comfortable and the best option. people who don't win early start getting their legacy questioned and get sick of watching their peers have more success and they leave. usually you get through year 7 to make it happen and then they leave. jordan got pippen just under the wire. wade got a title in year 3. it's not surprising bird, magic, duncan, curry, wade were loyal and guys like barkley and KD weren't (even hakeem got antsy by year 8). it's just natural. these guys didn't pick these teams and then betray them. their careers are put in their original team's hands. do well with it and you get loyalty, do poorly with it and i don't see why anyone should be required to be "loyal" just because a ping pong ball bounced your way. basically not only do some guys get put in great situations, then we give them bonus points for being happy with the great situation.

are we sure wade doesn't leave miami if cleveland or toronto had been the team that cleared all of the cap space for the big 3?

no, he simply stayed with his and despite the longevity KD never proved he can take his team to a title as the clear best guy.

i think 2006 finals and 2009 wade probably are a higher peak than KD, but wade didn't have to beat the 2012 spurs followed by 2012 heatles to win a title. or the 2016 spurs (+10 SRS), 2016 warriors (+10 SRS) and 2016 cavs (prime lebron) to win a title. every other year the thunder were usually hurt and then the 2021 nets were also even more injured. some people have easier circumstances.

edit: actually i think 2014 KD is the best regular season of the 2. 2009 wade had an amazing first round but obviously it's an incomplete playoffs.

[f4p]

How much of Wade's peak falls outside of the 1st Mav's Final, which is easily an All Time Top 10 NBA Worst Ref'ing Debacle?

(Right now, some truth-telling-DWade fan is giggling a bit too loudly... because don't you know [shrill whistle sound] the Mavs just got called for ANOTHER foul sending DWade back to the line!)

With a fair whistle, the Mavs don't even get past the Spurs that year. Surely you remember that joke of a game where Duncan fouled out on some BS and the Mavs shot 50 free throws.

i don't remember the whole series but i saw game 7 a few months ago on nbatv and the refs were MASSIVELY in favor of the spurs. duncan shot 20+ free throws on some of the softest calls ever and cuban looked like he might put a hit out on someone if the mavs had lost. now maybe that was just a make-up game for whichever game you are talking about, but it was bad. even the announcers were talking about it.

and as a rockets fan, i don't like either team.

[Dooley]

How much of Wade's peak falls outside of the 1st Mav's Final, which is easily an All Time Top 10 NBA Worst Ref'ing Debacle?

(Right now, some truth-telling-DWade fan is giggling a bit too loudly... because don't you know [shrill whistle sound] the Mavs just got called for ANOTHER foul sending DWade back to the line!)

With a fair whistle, the Mavs don't even get past the Spurs that year. Surely you remember that joke of a game where Duncan fouled out on some BS and the Mavs shot 50 free throws.

Went back & looked and the Spurs actually took around 20 more free throws over that series. Games 2 and 3 were the only games where Dallas took more free throws (Game 3 is the one where Duncan fouled out) and the Mavs had 2 guys foul out in game 4 and 3 guys foul out in Game 7.

In fairness some of the discrepancy is simply due to the fact that the Mavs rotation included Dampier and DeSagana Diop who were both extremely foul-happy.

[Johnny Tomala]

Durant, I don't have Wade in my Top 25, I have Durant there.

[JordansBulls]

Durant, I don't have Wade in my Top 25, I have Durant there.

How not?

[Ginoboleee]

Durant, I don't have Wade in my Top 25, I have Durant there.

How not?

I've got Wade around #30 too.
But in general, SGs do poorly in my rankings, compared to all the other positions.