Closer to HoF: Kyrie vs Butler

[durantbird]

Who do you think has the better chance of making it to the hall of fame?

[Dr Positivity]

Butler has definitely had the better career to me but torn between saying Butler has the edge due to PG being deeper, or the fact that the Cavs won a title with 4 finals will make it more likely a non Lebron player on that team gets in. I'll say Butler.

[HeartBreakKid]

Better chance is Kyrie because he is unusually popular and highly rated for a player of his caliber. The fact that Irving has a ring and Butler doesn't is going to be a major strength in Irving's favor, can definitely see a lot of people misremembering and thinking Kyrie was a superstar or something.

As for who is better in actuality, it's Jimmy Butler

[penbeast0]

Should be Butler; can't speak to all the non-basketball stuff other than time not on the court but Butler has been the more valuable player in his career to date.

[Doctor MJ]

Closer to HoF: Kyrie vs Butler?

For me personally Butler is way ahead of Kyrie.

For the actual Hall, how I'd tend to put it is that Butler just has to sustain what he's doing a little while longer, whereas if Kyrie keeps doing what he's doing - sitting out damaging the Nets - I don't think he makes it.

With Butler's track record, things could flame out at any time, and that could really devastate his chance.

With Kyrie, if he comes back and plays an essential role in a championship, he'll be a lock.

[Pelly24]

I think they're both locks, but Jimmy has a better case by a little bit. Legendary finals series, new five all nba defensive teams, like 4 or five all-nba teams. He'll make those teams again this year if he plays 62 or so games. He's been a better player and he's been more available.

if Kyrie ever decides that basketball is as important as his contract suggests, he'll get another few all-nba teams, all-star games and get up to 20k points, 5k rebounds and 5 or 6k assists, which will cement his spot as a hall of famer.

[RCM88x]

Kyrie is probably a lock right now even if he doesn't play again (seems like he will though).

Butler still has a little ways to go even though he's probably got a good bit higher career value than Kyrie.

I think Butlers problem is that he's less unique/dynamic in the gran scheme of things. A good defense, solid scoring/playmaking SF area dime a dozen in the current NBA era. Nothing really sets him apart on a game to game basis from guys like Paul George, Gordon Hayward, early career Kawhi, even a Carmelo.

However Kyrie was regarded as an elite scoring PG from the moment he entered the league (even if his ppg wasn't that impressive till later in his career) and he has the title run as a #2 combined with an iconic shot to boot.

Stating the obvious here but HoF talk kind of boils down to that a times.

[Stalwart]

Kyrie is already a lock. Jimmy has a ways to go. Kyrie is a NBA champion and a 3x Conf. Champion. I don't think that's getting enough attention. Jimmy has never really been viewed as more than a solid and consistent all star. Kyrie has been viewed as legit superstar and difference maker for a franchise. He's played much more meaningful basketball than Jimmy over the course of their careers.

I think Kyrie getting injured that 1st year in Boston really robbed him of an opportunity to cement his legacy as an all time great. People forget that he did excellent with Boston as a leader and superstar player that first year. He led them to a #1 seed and helped foster a championship atmosphere around that team. And considering they took the Cavs 7 games that year you have to think if Kyrie played they would have won that series and made it to the finals. I think had he not been injured and led the Celtics passed Lebron to the Finals we would be looking at Kyrie with whole a different level of respect.

[jalengreen]

Kyrie is already a lock. Jimmy has a ways to go. Kyrie is a NBA champion and a 3x Conf. Champion. I don't think that's getting enough attention. Jimmy has never really been viewed as more than a solid and consistent all star. Kyrie has been viewed as legit superstar and difference maker for a franchise. He's played much more meaningful basketball than Jimmy over the course of their careers.

I think Kyrie getting injured that 1st year in Boston really robbed him of an opportunity to cement his legacy as an all time great. People forget that he did excellent with Boston as a leader and superstar player that first year. He led them to a #1 seed and helped foster a championship atmosphere around that team. And considering they took the Cavs 7 games that year you have to think if Kyrie played they would have won that series and made it to the finals. I think had he not been injured and led the Celtics passed Lebron to the Finals we would be looking at Kyrie with whole a different level of respect.

he had his chance next year

[Prokorov]

Who do you think has the better chance of making it to the hall of fame?

It's Kyrie. Peak trumps availability/longevity in this case as well as Kyries ring (for which he played a massive role). Kyrie had 5 consecutive seasons where he was at 25 ppg flirting with 50/40/90 including last years 27 points where he did achieve 50/40/90. That is pretty elite, even in this era.

Butler's counting stats are not better then Kyrie's, nor is his peak/prime. Less All-star/All-NBA appearances and while he may be healthier then Kyrie going forward he is also 3 years older. so im not sure he would separate counting stats enough to make up the difference.

I don't really see the case for Butler as a better bet over Kyrie. Unless Kyrie just retires after this year, he is basically a lock. he may be a lock even if he does retire today.

[sp6r=underrated]

Kyrie is probably a lock right now even if he doesn't play again (seems like he will though).

. . .

However Kyrie was regarded as an elite scoring PG from the moment he entered the league (even if his ppg wasn't that impressive till later in his career) and he has the title run as a #2 combined with an iconic shot to boot.

Stating the obvious here but HoF talk kind of boils down to that a times.

Sorry to bump an old thread but I was browsing Kyrie threads and stumbled on this great post.

I think everything you said about Kyrie, and HOF in general, is correct. But your last sentence has me believing Kyrie is actively lowering his HOF chances right now. By that I mean I he would have been better off if he had retired than if 2022 never occurred.

Think about it. At a high level this is how Kyrie's career has ended with his last 3 teams:

1. In 2017, he threatened to have surgery to force a trade off a title contender. This is extremely uncommon and left permanent ill will. Now Cleveland is a smaller market, which isn't able to imprint its parochial views on the national, basketball consciousness. Cleveland goes onto make the finals without him.

2. His Boston tenure is a trainwreck. One injury riddled season and another season when he plays poorly in the post-season. He's also a locker room trainwreck and leaves this franchise on very poor terms. Boston is not a small market. It is very much able to impart its views on the national basketball consciousness.

3. His Brooklyn tenure is a trainwreck from beginning to end. His first season ends with season ending injury. He tries to organize a players boycott of the post-season, which I think is a first in basketball history. His second season does have a strong post-season but features bizarre behavior were he chronically misses games for personal reason. His third season is a total trainwreck. Missing most of the season due to a choice that no one else on his roster made. He gets upset his team doesn't give him a max and plays a role in his friend, a true superstar, wanting out of the team.

To state the obvious NYC is not a small market. Its media is the national media. And now he's made a permanent enemy of it. His only saving grace is he did it with the less popular NY team. If it had been the Knicks he'd get slaughtered even worse.

So overall he has two franchises, and team fanbases that permanently hate him. Two major media cities, fairly or not, will rag him for the remainder of his career. The team were he enjoyed best sustained play is ambivilant about him. Basketball is unique in how many fans are player fans not team fans but this still hurts.

I'm actually beginning to think his HOF chances would have been higher if he retired right after Boston than what went down in Brooklyn.

Am I crazy for thinking Kyrie's actions may result in people who would have voted for him based on their player analysis not voting for him anymore? To put it another, I'm beginning to think his last few seasons actually had negative HOF probability value which is extremely unique.

[MyUniBroDavis]

Kyrie is probably a lock right now even if he doesn't play again (seems like he will though).

. . .

However Kyrie was regarded as an elite scoring PG from the moment he entered the league (even if his ppg wasn't that impressive till later in his career) and he has the title run as a #2 combined with an iconic shot to boot.

Stating the obvious here but HoF talk kind of boils down to that a times.

Sorry to bump an old thread but I was browsing Kyrie threads and stumbled on this great post.

I think everything you said about Kyrie, and HOF in general, is correct. But your last sentence has me believing Kyrie is actively lowering his HOF chances right now. By that I mean I he would have been better off if he had retired than if 2022 never occurred.

Think about it. At a high level this is how Kyrie's career has ended with his last 3 teams:

1. In 2017, he threatened to have surgery to force a trade off a title contender. This is extremely uncommon and left permanent ill will. Now Cleveland is a smaller market, which isn't able to imprint its parochial views on the national, basketball consciousness. Cleveland goes onto make the finals without him.

2. His Boston tenure is a trainwreck. One injury riddled season and another season when he plays poorly in the post-season. He's also a locker room trainwreck and leaves this franchise on very poor terms. Boston is not a small market. It is very much able to impart its views on the national basketball consciousness.

3. His Brooklyn tenure is a trainwreck from beginning to end. His first season ends with season ending injury. He tries to organize a players boycott of the post-season, which I think is a first in basketball history. His second season does have a strong post-season but features bizarre behavior were he chronically misses games for personal reason. His third season is a total trainwreck. Missing most of the season due to a choice that no one else on his roster made. He gets upset his team doesn't give him a max and plays a role in his friend, a true superstar, wanting out of the team.

To state the obvious NYC is not a small market. Its media is the national media. And now he's made a permanent enemy of it. His only saving grace is he did it with the less popular NY team. If it had been the Knicks he'd get slaughtered even worse.

So overall he has two franchises, and team fanbases that permanently hate him. Two major media cities, fairly or not, will rag him for the remainder of his career. The team were he enjoyed best sustained play is ambivilant about him. Basketball is unique in how many fans are player fans not team fans but this still hurts.

I'm actually beginning to think his HOF chances would have been higher if he retired right after Boston than what went down in Brooklyn.

Am I crazy for thinking Kyrie's actions may result in people who would have voted for him based on their player analysis not voting for him anymore? To put it another, I'm beginning to think his last few seasons actually had negative HOF probability value which is extremely unique.

his practical career value went down because of his actions but people view him as one of the most skilled players in nba history he’s definately going to make it

[sp6r=underrated]

his practical career value went down because of his actions but people view him as one of the most skilled players in nba history he’s definately going to make it

So I definitely think his skills, which for basketball players means on-ball isolation scoring ability, reputation helps him alot. It is clearly why basketball players still admire him so.

But those guys don't vote for the Hall.

[MyUniBroDavis]

his practical career value went down because of his actions but people view him as one of the most skilled players in nba history he’s definately going to make it

So I definitely think his skills, which for basketball players means on-ball isolation scoring ability, reputation helps him alot. It is clearly why basketball players still admire him so.

But those guys don't vote for the Hall.

You have to remember that the opinions aren’t here don’t really align with the public all too much though, Kyrie was really seen as that guy for awhile, it’s hard to see them not voting for him

[Colbinii]

Both are 100% in.

[sp6r=underrated]

his practical career value went down because of his actions but people view him as one of the most skilled players in nba history he’s definately going to make it

So I definitely think his skills, which for basketball players means on-ball isolation scoring ability, reputation helps him alot. It is clearly why basketball players still admire him so.

But those guys don't vote for the Hall.

You have to remember that the opinions aren’t here don’t really align with the public all too much though, Kyrie was really seen as that guy for awhile, it’s hard to see them not voting for him

I guess I come at this from the perspective of a baseball fan. It is insane to me, and I strongly oppose it, but HOF voters clearly decided to blacklist Bonds/Clemens for the steroids.

And I think you're underestimating basketball HOF voters doing the same to Kyrie for his antics on all 3 teams he played for.

If you don't follow baseball those guys are unarguable HOFers based on actual play, think Lebron/Duncan not making HOF.
while Kyrie if you're looking for excuses to not vote for him, you can easily make an argument against.

[MyUniBroDavis]

So I definitely think his skills, which for basketball players means on-ball isolation scoring ability, reputation helps him alot. It is clearly why basketball players still admire him so.

But those guys don't vote for the Hall.

You have to remember that the opinions aren’t here don’t really align with the public all too much though, Kyrie was really seen as that guy for awhile, it’s hard to see them not voting for him

I guess I come at this from the perspective of a baseball fan. It is insane to me, and I strongly oppose it, but HOF voters clearly decided to blacklist Bonds/Clemens for the steroids.

And I think you're underestimating basketball HOF voters doing the same to Kyrie for his antics on all 3 teams he played for.

If you don't follow baseball those guys are unarguable HOFers based on actual play, think Lebron/Duncan not making HOF.
while Kyrie if you're looking for excuses to not vote for him, you can easily make an argument against.

Yes but it’s a meme how easy it is to get into the hall of fame for basketball lol, compared to baseball I’m pretty surr

[dribble1614]

butler by quite a distance. capable #1 who’s led a team to the finals as well as a hard fought 7-game ecf as well. kyrie could never lead a team to even the playoffs as the main man, let alone deep playoffs runs. butler on a different level defensively too.

[rate_]

Jimmy went toe to toe with LeBron in the Finals and just came off a playoff run that Kyrie has never sniffed.

[tsherkin]

You have to remember that the opinions aren’t here don’t really align with the public all too much though, Kyrie was really seen as that guy for awhile, it’s hard to see them not voting for him

This right here is one of the reasons I don't pay any attention at all to the basketball HoF. It's a joke. Like, separate out the fact that it includes global basketball; people talk about that too much. It makes plenty of sense to look at the WNBA and FIBA and so forth and recognize important individuals from those places as far as advancing basketball globally and all that. But some of the NBA guys that make it as something akin to a career achievement award rather than a recognition of relevance or actual importance to the development of the game is just... hilarious.

On topic, Kyrie's a skilled guy. He's going into his 12th season in the league, he's a career 23.1 ppg scorer who is north of 14,000 points scored, he's got a ring, he's a 7-time All-Star... I'm struggling to think of a similar career profile that isn't in the Hall. No matter how much of a jackass moron he is and no matter what health issues he's had and such, all of that puts together a profile that looks like an easy Hall inclusion based on how it actually works.