Wes Unseld vs Draymond Green

[capfan33]

I think that's a bit of recency bias we're talking about someone in Unseld who won Rookie of the Year and MVP in the same year the only player to do that besides Wilt, who's also a Top 75 player, generally regarded as the greatest and synonymous with the outlet pass , and the greatest player in Washington Wizard/Bullet history that's a hell of a impact

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Him winning MVP is a bit dubious to say the least, but Unseld was an excellent player who definitely gets underrated much in the same way Draymond does because he's not a great scorer. I'm open to being convinced either way.

There isn't anything dubious about it all. Your just looking at stats without context the thing yall praise Draymond you guys are somehow lamenting Unseld for in his MVP season. In Unseld's rookie year he made an immediate impact boosting the Bullets to a 57-25 record and 1st place in the East which is a 21 game increase from the previous season. Again all that as a rookie, more than deserving of MVP

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I was aware that there was a big jump when he joined but I'm not sure how much of that was actually him. I'll admit I don't know, would have to do more research.

[TT8198]

If a team jumps 21 games from the previous season upon your arrival enroute to a MVP im pretty sure that's almost entirely because of him but don't ask me just at the league who acknowledged that by giving him MVP. What more research do you need exactly??

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[70sFan]

Yeah, I mean, rookie Unseld being the worst MVP in league history because... reasons, I guess (the Russell archetype?), barely means anything.

Offense I could buy, but I do not think he's close defensively to Draymond either.

I'd actually say that Unseld was the better player than any version of Green that doesn't shoot threes like a real floor spacer. I'd give clear edge to Draymond defensively though.

[TT8198]

Yeah, I mean, rookie Unseld being the worst MVP in league history because... reasons, I guess (the Russell archetype?), barely means anything.

Offense I could buy, but I do not think he's close defensively to Draymond either.

I'd actually say that Unseld was the better player than any version of Green that doesn't shoot threes like a real floor spacer. I'd give clear edge to Draymond defensively though.

As I've said I give Draymond the edge due to his versatility and defensive accolades but Unseld is definitely a better post defender. Draymond is the perfect defender for the modern league with less traditional bigs and post offense. I'd rather have Unseld guard Wilt or Kareem than Draymond

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[Jaivl]

Yeah, I mean, rookie Unseld being the worst MVP in league history because... reasons, I guess (the Russell archetype?), barely means anything.

Offense I could buy, but I do not think he's close defensively to Draymond either.

I'd actually say that Unseld was the better player than any version of Green that doesn't shoot threes like a real floor spacer. I'd give clear edge to Draymond defensively though.

I probably agree, but that's cheating. Spacer Draymond happened for a while.

[Ginoboleee]

Yeah, I mean, rookie Unseld being the worst MVP in league history because... reasons, I guess (the Russell archetype?), barely means anything.

Offense I could buy, but I do not think he's close defensively to Draymond either.

I'd actually say that Unseld was the better player than any version of Green that doesn't shoot threes like a real floor spacer. I'd give clear edge to Draymond defensively though.

I probably agree, but that's cheating. Spacer Draymond happened for a while.

At some point, I need the lowdown on what constitutes cheating in Time Travel Player Comparisons.

I mean if it is the Twilight Zone, what exactly is out of bounds?!

[Owly]

I'd actually say that Unseld was the better player than any version of Green that doesn't shoot threes like a real floor spacer. I'd give clear edge to Draymond defensively though.

I probably agree, but that's cheating. Spacer Draymond happened for a while.

At some point, I need the lowdown on what constitutes cheating in Time Travel Player Comparisons.

I mean if it is the Twilight Zone, what exactly is out of bounds?!

You seen to have misunderstood. The cheating does not refer to any time travel. It responds to the segment I have bolded above

any version of Green that doesn't shoot threes like a real floor spacer

with the bolded

Spacer Draymond happened for a while

presumably in reference to 2016's 100 of 258 .388 performance. This is of course an outlier (though so is Unseld's accolade consideration in his rookie year, heavily touted by some as a case for him here).

[Ginoboleee]

Owly, cool, cool, thanks.
So you meant that there was a sneaky moving of the goal posts. Got it.

[Owly]

If a team jumps 21 games from the previous season upon your arrival enroute to a MVP im pretty sure that's almost entirely because of him but don't ask me just at the league who acknowledged that by giving him MVP. What more research do you need exactly??

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Well a chunk of it was luck.
Reference suggests '68 Bullets pythogorean wins based on points for and against would be 40, they won 36.
Reference suggests '69 Bullets pythogorean wins based on points for and against would be 51, they won 57.

As such the difference in wins is 21, but the points for and against suggests they should only have improved by 11.

Unless one is on the "close games aren't substantially luck influenced, points differential doesn't matter" train, the latter is the better marker.

Then too part of the improvement can be put down to expansion. Two new NBA teams lower the average standard and inflate all other teams win totals - the average win % of non-'69 expansion teams is 0.539634146. So teams get a free circa 4% win percentage boost versus what would happen in a non expansion/dilution league. Multiplying that .039634146 by 82 games that figures to be 3.25 "bonus" wins.

If one were to take that off too that would be down to a 7.75 win increase.

Now the Bullets' 4.28 SRS increase is not insignificant (though per the last section this number too is inflated by the reduced league average standard). And the arrival of Unseld (pushing Scott, Ellis and Ferry down the totem pole) seems to be the main cause. And it is done in spite of a loss of 600 minutes of Gus Johnson. That said I have seen it expressed here that the raw win increase may have been cause of a significant overrating of rookie Unseld (see for instance: viewtopic.php?t=2171592&start=20).

[70sFan]

Yeah, I mean, rookie Unseld being the worst MVP in league history because... reasons, I guess (the Russell archetype?), barely means anything.

Offense I could buy, but I do not think he's close defensively to Draymond either.

I'd actually say that Unseld was the better player than any version of Green that doesn't shoot threes like a real floor spacer. I'd give clear edge to Draymond defensively though.

I probably agree, but that's cheating. Spacer Draymond happened for a while.

It happened for one season + 2017 postseason, it's not much.

[70sFan]

Yeah, I mean, rookie Unseld being the worst MVP in league history because... reasons, I guess (the Russell archetype?), barely means anything.

Offense I could buy, but I do not think he's close defensively to Draymond either.

I'd actually say that Unseld was the better player than any version of Green that doesn't shoot threes like a real floor spacer. I'd give clear edge to Draymond defensively though.

As I've said I give Draymond the edge due to his versatility and defensive accolades but Unseld is definitely a better post defender. Draymond is the perfect defender for the modern league with less traditional bigs and post offense. I'd rather have Unseld guard Wilt or Kareem than Draymond

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I agree, Unseld was a better post defender than Green, who was pretty good himself. I'd also say that Unseld was significantly better rebounder, but Green is clearly better in other aspects of defense.

[Owly]

Owly, cool, cool, thanks.
So you meant that there was a sneaky moving of the goal posts. Got it.

No I meant what I said.
Whilst I was clear that Draymond's shooting was an outlier, to note that there is a season which in which Draymond did not meet the description

any version of Green that doesn't shoot threes like a real floor spacer

seems entirely legitimate. I am unclear as to how it moves the goalposts.

Whether a season counts as a "version" is woolly enough question to allow for disagreement and the related question how much weight one wants to put into on season's three point shooting in such a context would be too. So too would be the standard required to be "a real floor spacer".

But I said what I meant and meant what I said. I would rather not have it stated that my post "meant" that some posting was "sneaky" where those are note my words.

[KobesScarf]

Comparing an MVP to a role player. SMH.

[Ginoboleee]

Owly, cool, cool, thanks.
So you meant that there was a sneaky moving of the goal posts. Got it.

No I meant what I said.
Whilst I was clear that Draymond's shooting was an outlier, to note that there is a season which in which Draymond did not meet the description

any version of Green that doesn't shoot threes like a real floor spacer

seems entirely legitimate. I am unclear as to how it moves the goalposts.

Whether a season counts as a "version" is woolly enough question to allow for disagreement and the related question how much weight one wants to put into on season's three point shooting in such a context would be too. So too would be the standard required to be "a real floor spacer".

But I said what I meant and meant what I said. I would rather not have it stated that my post "meant" that some posting was "sneaky" where those are note my words.

Well then.
I guess you didn't read my friendly playful and supportive tone.
I wasn't talking about anything you did, let alone anything you did wrong.

I was talking about, as I had from the start, the presence or absence of cheating in the ideas being bounced back and forth between you and 70s fan.
And that there had been a mild disconnect between the different Draymond references - that was the movement of the goal posts - and not by you geez - a poorly phrased word choice for miscommunication regarding the original comment of cheating.

I know they are not your words - I was on your side the whole time.
Talk about a rabbit hole.

[trex_8063]

Well then.
I guess you didn't read my friendly playful and supportive tone.

While your tone may have been "playful", it was neither friendly or supportive, and rarely is. Check your PM's.

I wasn't talking about anything you did, let alone anything you did wrong.

You weren't talking about anything ANYONE did wrong. I see no statement in that exchange that could be called "shifting the goal-posts".

One poster stated he thinks Unseld is better than any version of Draymond that is NOT a legitimate floor-spacer (which I, and I believe everyone else [except you, apparently] took to mean he feels Unseld's average prime year is better than any Green year in which Green was NOT a legitimate floor-spacer).
This is perfectly legitimate point of view given:
a) Floor spacing provides definitive value. It means his defender cannot sag in nearer the paint or otherwise leave him alone on the outside; or at least that they do so at their own peril (as opposed to this year, where teams were leaving Green on an island behind the arc with impunity----practically goading him to shoot----because he still couldn't hit 30% on mostly wide-open treys [struggled to get >20% in the playoffs]). It also raises his individual scoring efficiency when he's not bricking everything (added value there too).
So it makes complete sense that a version that does the usual Draymond things (defense, play-making) AND is a legitimate outside threat is more valuable than a version that only does the first two things.......and that added value could reasonably [subjectively, but reasonably] be said to make him more valuable than prime Unseld.
Further....
b) The "floor spacing version" of Green isn't some mythical beast. We're not speculating on some hypothetical version that never existed. We DID see it for at least one year (arguably two).