RealGM Greatest Peaks Project (2022): #7 - 1993-94 Hakeem Olajuwon

Moderators: Doctor MJ, trex_8063, penbeast0, PaulieWal, Clyde Frazier

70sFan
RealGM
Posts: 29,599
And1: 24,915
Joined: Aug 11, 2015
 

Re: RealGM Greatest Peaks Project (2022): #7 

Post#81 » by 70sFan » Sat Jul 9, 2022 8:10 pm

iggymcfrack wrote:I know it was just a throwaway comment in an unrelated argument, but I don't think Curry would lose anywhere near as much in 1962 as you'd think. Steph has a career EFG% of .581. The league average this year was .532. Meanwhile, Curry has a career FG% of .473. The league average for that stat in 1962 was .426. Even without a 3-point shot available, he'd be outperforming the league average by a similar amount.

I don't think you realize how much of a difference it makes for Curry. Using very crude estimation you just did:

Curry's career: 62.4 TS%, 58.1 eFG%, 114 TS+

Curry without 3P adjusted for 1962 averages: 52.6 TS%, 47.3 eFG%, 110 TS+

That would make Curry less efficient than quite a high volume scorers (including Wilt). It's not a good way to evaluate cross-era comparisons though, which brings us to...

Now take into account that the league was used to not guarding people even close to Curry's range. Even when they adjusted, they still wouldn't have experience trying to follow a shooter that closely off of screens on the perimeter and Curry would undoubtedly shoot significantly better than he does today. Furthermore, if they suddenly have a guy they have to guard from 30 feet when they hardly have to guard anyone else in the league past 15 feet, his gravity would warp the court even more than it does today and would get amazing looks for his teammates. I think there's a strong argument that Curry would be just as dominant if not more in the '60s than he is in the modern game.

You are doing it completely wrong here. It's true that 1960s players weren't used to defend someone like Curry in a way modern teams do... but they wouldn't need to. Curry is extremely dangerous outside 30 feet strictly because him shooting 40% on threes is extremely efficient offense. Curry shooting 40% long range jumpshots from 30 feet without three point line leads to 0.8 ppp, which is horrible even for 1960s standards. Even if we assume that he'd make more threes with less pressure, 45% still doesn't generate strong offense.

Curry would be still a freak with his shooting, but the same plays wouldn't have the same value. Teams would be able to live with Curry taking a lot of long threes unguarded, because that would never lead to elite offense - unless Curry gets extremely hot. So even though he'd still score a lot of points, his off-ball gravity would be significantly less impactful. That's what makes him so dangerous and you don't have that anymore. You basically leave us with better shooting, but smaller and worse defensively version of Jerry West instead.

By the way, I don't think Curry would make threes at significantly better rate, even with less defensive pressure. Balls were much different back then and we can see how big of an impact it had on players, when the NBA changed balls at the beginning of 1969/70 season and league FT% went way higher than ever before.
DraymondGold
Senior
Posts: 587
And1: 748
Joined: May 19, 2022

Re: RealGM Greatest Peaks Project (2022): #7 

Post#82 » by DraymondGold » Sat Jul 9, 2022 9:11 pm

ty 4191 wrote:Not planning on voting, as yet, but I have to throw my hat in the ring for Jokic.

Why is it that seemingly nobody here considers how much deeper and stronger the NBA is today, vs. previous decades? Can anyone answer that one?

Nikola Jokic, 2022:

People will probably laugh, but this is the greatest all-around season I've seen. Missing the team's two greatest players, by far, in Murray and MPJ for the entire season, Jokic took a bunch of scrubs to 48 wins and a 6th Seed in the West. Probably no player in history could have taken (this year's) Nuggets to a victory over the fully healthy Warriors squad in the First Round this past season.

The league is far deeper and harder to dominate than it ever had been before. No Expansion since 2004 and a Fully Globalized NBA. Just look at these facts:

Image

Image

Image

Consider: None of these guys would likely even be playing in the NBA prior to the 2010's!!

As far as Jokic's dominance, in the past 161 games (including the 2021 & 2022 Playoffs, dating back to the beginning of last season), Jokic has put up a slash line of:

27.0/12.3/7.9 (while leading all centers in steals by a huge margin) on .606 eFG% and +8.0 rTS% (while taking 596 threes as a Center).

--The only player in NBA history to put up a slash line of 27.0/12.3/7.9 in any single season is Oscar Robertson, all the way back in 61'-62', and he did it in a game that featured 127 possessions per game, playing 44 MPG.

--Jokic, on the other hand, has done this in a league averaging only 102 possessions per game, and while playing only 34 MPG.

And, Jokic has sustained this for the equivalent of two full seasons!!!

Jokic's defense was dramatically improved this year, also:

https://fivethirtyeight.com/features/nikola-jokic-bolstered-his-mvp-case-with-his-defense/#:~:text=His%20defensive%20rebounding%20percentage%20has,9.1)%20while%20committing%20fewer%20fouls.

Single Season All Time Records set by Jokic this year, in the deepest and hardest to dominate NBA ever:

-Player Efficiency Rating
-Box Plus Minus

Great article on Jokic's all time great 2020-2021 Season. And, he only got that much better this year:

https://bleacherreport.com/articles/2944312-nikola-jokic-just-dominated-one-of-the-strongest-mvp-fields-ever


Really interesting stats on Jokic. It’s definitely some compelling stuff about the general improvement of the league.

On a broader note, I appreciate your dedication to trying to develop measurements of competition / opponent difficulty. I think it’s an underrated influence, especially as it relates to winning bias. Some players are just seen as “Winners” for certain championships or accomplishments while others are seen as inherent “losers,” but the truth is that both cases are highly context dependent. Like you indicate, Teammates, coaches, health, opponents, even random shooting luck can change the outcome of a series or even a season. But that sense of chance and randomness can be hard to convey against the weight of the media and the narratives.

I do understand and share some of your frustration. It can certainly feel like you raise convincing points then the next day you see a flurry of votes without much discussion that all ignore the points you raised. And that can definitely be frustrating! I have to imagine though it’s hard for everyone to reply to all the points being raised. There’s a lot of people voting and a lot of players to vote for! There’s no guarantee, but I’d like to hope everyone at least reads all the comments before posting.

For Jokic, I definitely have him higher than top 25, though to me I’m not sure if he’s in this tier that has a top-10 argument yet. I love his offense, and I do think defensive narratives can be overblown (e.g. people saying Gobert / Curry / Jokic are all complete liabilities in the playoffs). Some people complain that people are slow to credit newer players with having historically great peaks (e.g. perceptions of Curry and LeBron’s peaks have gotten higher over the years). And it might be true that people are slow to give proper credit, but there is something to the fact that seeing a player for longer can give us a larger sample for data and give us more context in our film analysis. For example, if he performs just as well in 2023 in the metrics, that would give us a better 3 year sample for data.

Re; Jokic Defense, I do think his increased defensive performance in 2022 is real, and that’s one of the reasons I have 2022 Jokic > 2021 Jokic. That said, I still do have playoff concerns. To be clear, the Warriors were just about the worst matchup they could get, especially without his supporting cast. And I also think it’s understated that modern offenses can dent big man’s overall defensive value. Thinking Basketball did a study that showed that on average, big men decline more in the playoffs than other positions, and he credits a lot of that to declining defensive value, since slower big man are relentlessly hunted as mismatches on the perimeter. Now Jokic can’t help that he’s playing in the hardest era for big man to have defensive value, but it’s hard to know just how positive he would be against a non-Warriors team without seeing it. That’s another reason why he might rise later on — if he performs great in the 2023 playoffs and isn’t a liability on defense against non-Warriors teams, that might also retroactively give us more confidence in his defensive potential in the 2022 playoffs.

Since I’m starting to see a few more modern names, here's a Statistical Comparison of Modern Peaks: Curry > Giannis ~ Jokic > Paul > KD ~ Kawhi > Harden
Spoiler:
Here are the years for the players: 2014/2015 CP3, 2014/2016/2017 KD, 2016/2017 Curry, 2017/2019/2021 Kawhi, 2019/2020/2021 Giannis, 2021/2022 Jokic. I changed my normal stats around a bit since we’re using modern players only (no prime WOWY data yet, WS/48 is clearly the worst stat in the old group. Now adding RAPTOR, LEBRON, DARKO to replace them).

Plus minus data
Ai. AuPM: 16/17 Curry > 19/20/21 Giannis ~ 21/22 Jokic ~ 14/15 Paul > 14/16/17 KD > 118/19/20 Harden > 17/19/21 Kawhi
Aii. Postseason AuPM: Curry > Paul > Kawhi (better in 17) ~ Giannis > KD ~ Jokic (better in 19/22, worse in 20/21) > Harden
Bi. Goldstein RAPM: Curry > Paul > Giannis > Kawhi > KD > Harden [missing Jokic 21/22, though 19 Jokic is lower]
Bii. Goldstein RS/Playoff PIPM: Curry > Giannis > Paul > Kawhi > KD > Jokic (missing 2022) > Haden
C. Fivethirtyeight’s Overall RAPTOR +/-: Jokic > Curry > Paul > Harden > Kawhi > Giannis > KD
Note: this is a per 75 stat. If we do per season volume, Curry rise and KD rise, but per season Raptor rewards long playoff
runs.
D. Bball-Index’s LEBRON: 19/20 Giannis (21/22 Giannis is much lower) > Jokic > Curry > KD (14’s higher than 17) > Paul > Harden > Kawhi
E. DARKO: Curry > Giannis > Paul > Kawhi > KD > Jokic > Harden
F. Additional plus minus stats: ESPN’s RPM: Jokic > Curry > Giannis > Paul > Harden > KD > Kawhi
G. Additional plus minus stats: Backpicks’ CORP evaluation: Curry > KD > Giannis > Paul > Kawhi > Harden > 19/20 Jokic [no stat for 21/22 Jokic]


Box score-based data
Hi. Backpicks BPM: Curry > Jokic > Harden > KD > Giannis > Paul > Kawhi
Hii. Postseason Backpicks BPM: 21 Kawhi (17 below Jokic, 19 lower) > Curry ~ 17 KD (14 is bottom) > Paul > Jokic > Giannis ~ Harden
Ii. BR’s BPM: Jokic > Curry > Giannis > Harden > KD > Paul > Kawhi
Iii. BR’s Postseason BPM: Kawhi > Jokic > Giannis > KD > Curry > Paul > Harden
General thoughts:
1) Curry’s clearly at the top.
2-3) If we give Jokic a favorable interpretation for the missing 2022 stats, Jokic and Giannis come next (Younger 19/20 Jokic is clearly worse than 19/20 Giannis, but 21/22 Jokic seems to beat 21/22 Giannis, at least in the stats that have been updated through 22. You might be lower on Jokic if you're concerned about his postseason defensive resilience, and you might be lower on Giannis if you're concerned about his postseason offensive resilience.)
4) Paul is not far behind. (though many people argue is overrated by +/- stats, partially because they doesn’t always account for postseason injury risk. He's also not as portable as the competition).
5-6) KD and Kawhi come next. (Some might argue KD’s portability and resilience could boost him. Kawhi’s at the very bottom of the regular season-only stats, and he rises in full-season or playoff-only stats. Note that playoff-only stats don’t count missed games from injury).
7) Harden’s near the bottom in both regular season, and he loses ground in postseason-only stats.

Other players? AD deserves to be in the discussion with other modern players for his 2020 playoffs alone, but I suspect others will be lower on him because he's better as a 2nd option than a 1st option (which I care less about) and because his 2020 value spike came from hot shooting which might have been enabled by the Bubble (which I care more about).
Other players: Russell Westbrook (but I have serious scalability concerns for him), Draymond Green (great metrics, but he's an even more extreme case of AD -- great supplemental option, terrible 1st option... and I wonder how much his great impact metrics come from his fit/collinearity with Curry), Luka (I don't see him in this group yet),
capfan33
Pro Prospect
Posts: 856
And1: 743
Joined: May 21, 2022
 

Re: RealGM Greatest Peaks Project (2022): #7 

Post#83 » by capfan33 » Sat Jul 9, 2022 9:22 pm

iggymcfrack wrote:
Dr Positivity wrote:
capfan33 wrote:
Russell defensively probably did have way more impact than Hakeem, but that's more due to era than anything else.


An analogy, not sure if it's accurate or not

Russell shotblocking: Curry 3pt
Hakeem shotblocking: Lillard 3pt

Lillard is arguably 2nd or 3rd best shooter of all time so you'd think it wouldn't be that big of a difference but it is in terms of Curry warping the court.

Likewise I don't believe anyone's shotblocking had the type of anti-gravity fear factor that Russell's did to the point where teams changed their entire offensive strategy to avoid him. I will say though that unlike Curry and Lillard, Russell and Hakeem didn't play at the same time. However he did play at the same time as Wilt who seems to also be one of the greatest shotblockers of all time and Russell's impact doing it seems to have been clearly higher or else it would have been a joke to compare them in impact, and probably impossible for Russell to beat him in playoffs as consistently as he did.


Honestly, I think a better analogy might be Russell is to Curry as Hakeem is to Nash. Nash was an amazing shooter as well and had the exact same 3 point percentage as Curry and an almost identical free throw percentage, but in his era that skill wasn't emphasized and he didn't take advantage of it to anywhere near the same level. Meanwhile, I feel like Hakeem's raw shotblocking skill was probably at least comparable to Russell's, probably a little bit below it like Nash compared to Curry, but in an even relatively well-spaced game, a shot blocker can't have the same impact as they could in the '60s when almost every good shot was within 6 feet of the basket. Likewise, the high frequency of misses in the early game made Russell's rebounding a lot more of an impactful weapon than it would be nowadays.


I would lean more towards this, I think Russell is the GOAT defender regardless of era but I think if you compare him to Hakeem in a vacuum he's probably about 10-15% better give or take. Which is extremely difficult to do regardless, being 10-15% better than anyone else at anything in a sport is very hard to do, but I don't think his impact would be at the absurd levels it was at in the 60s. I do think his offense would improve in later eras with more emphasis/training as he's an ideal rim-runner and decent passer.
DraymondGold
Senior
Posts: 587
And1: 748
Joined: May 19, 2022

Re: RealGM Greatest Peaks Project (2022): #7 

Post#84 » by DraymondGold » Sat Jul 9, 2022 9:54 pm

Samurai wrote:.

SickMother wrote:.

Dutchball97 wrote:.

Ginoboleee wrote:.


Hi y'all! I think we rate Curry vs the competition a bit differently, and I haven't seen your replies to any of the arguments in favor of Curry yet, so I thought I might start a discussion to understand your perspective better. (apologies if you have and I just missed it!)

To me, there's been some pretty convincing arguments for Curry over this competition (though I am biased since I'm one of the ones making the arguments :lol: ). For example, people have shown he has a favorable case over Hakeem by the impact stats, by a skill comparison (e.g. comparing scoring vs playmaking vs defense), by in-depth film analysis, and by qualitative analysis (e.g. using scalability arguments, time-machine arguments, etc.)

Is there any reason why you're rating Curry lower? Is there anything in those arguments do you don't find convincing? Feel free to raise any points in favor of other players too if you think I'm underrating them :)
falcolombardi
General Manager
Posts: 9,264
And1: 6,851
Joined: Apr 13, 2021
       

Re: RealGM Greatest Peaks Project (2022): #7 

Post#85 » by falcolombardi » Sat Jul 9, 2022 10:39 pm

I have not voted yet so i will go ahead

1-1993 hakeem: the best goat level two way big left with only walton, robinson and giannis coming close (players who will be soon on my radar)

A contender for #2 all time best defender and one of the best offensive floor raisers in history with his resilient scoring and creation as a offense engine

The defense, rebounding, athletism and solid midrange shooting (wont penalize him for not shooting 3's in a era where bigs never were asked or allowed to shoot them)

even the time travle arguments work for him as his agility would make hin a lethal spread pick and roll defender and he had enough shooting touch and athletism he could be a lwthal pick and pop or pick and roll big man in a modern offense picking up easy basketa

I have some concerns about how much he liked to hold the ball and take a fade away or tough shot (he was good at making) in lieu of passing back and reposting at times (noticed lots of this against seattle in 93)

But even that feels like nitpicking when (ecen against seattle or knicks great defenses) he took a more talented team to 7 (seattle) or beat them in 7 (knicks)

The much maligned seattle series in 93 was fascinating, yes hakeem settled for too many double teamed shots for my taste conpared to what duncan did against nets in 2003 (94 knicks seem to have played him much more straight up)

But that was by double and triple teaming him, partially or blitzing, essentially every possesion and creating openings for houston players even when hakeem wpuldnt touch the ball in a posession. If that is not wild gravity i dont know what it is

1 B1994 hakeem: didnt notice much difference with 94 hakeem and 93 hakeem passing wise and he actually looked more active to me in 93 defensively

2- 1964 bill russel

the ultimate defender, we usually have the dogma that the best defensive players are less impactful in defense that the best offensive pmayers are in offense but this was probably reversed in russel era

I dont hold it against him that he played in a era optimized for a shotblocker any mpre that i hold it against curry he played in a era optinized for a offensive star guard

Russel defensw results are so absurd that i dont think there is a equal comparision to him in the offensive end or in pre 3 point shot basketball. He is an outlier in defense in a way npbody stands out so much in offense

And is possible his offensive skillset of athletism, offensive reboundign and passing would be more valuable to a team now than it was in the 60's which would "compensate" defensive impact reductuons in the mpdern game if we care about cross era fit

3-i am unsure here but i will think about this later, not really sure who to pick 3rd
OhayoKD
Lead Assistant
Posts: 5,903
And1: 3,849
Joined: Jun 22, 2022
 

Re: RealGM Greatest Peaks Project (2022): #7 

Post#86 » by OhayoKD » Sat Jul 9, 2022 10:52 pm

Im gonna make a case for Hakeem as the #3 here by arguing he was clearly the best floor raiser of the 80's/90's.

Let's start with 86 where the rockets were 7-7 without him and were 40-20 without him in the rs before they smashed a 62 win team and then took the gsw of the 80's to 6 with hakeem upping all his box-stuff. That's jordan-level regular szn impact+elite playoff elevation as a 3rd year player.

In 88, Rockets were a 45 win team with him and a 10 win team without him and hakeem broke nba statistics in a first round exit before lebron rebroke them in 09.

In 92 the rockets went 2-10 without him and 40-30 with him, missed the playoffs because he missed team.

(That's a similar drop off to the cleveland cavs without lebron from 08-11 albeit on a worse team.)

Finally in 93 with basically the same team and some improvement from a rookie, The rockets won 55 GAMES with Hakeem playing every game. For comparison jordan's bulls won 27 games before they drafted him and won at a 25 win pace withtout him when he hurt his foot. But jordan could never get that team to more than 50 wins until pippen/phil jackson/rodman arrived.

For most of his prime hakeem was roughly a +14 plus/minus player and he elevated massively in the playoffs. In 94 and 95 he led teams that played like a 60 win team agaisnt playoff opponents. Hakeem's skillset may not have lent itself to 72 win teams or the like, but he was probably the best floor raiser of his era and he was still able to lead dominant teams when provided with spacing. Given that Hakeem seems to have been this crazily impactful player for most of his prime i'm going to vote multiple hakeem seasons here. Even 2nd year hakeem was probably on the same tier as peak shaq or jordan imo, I think from 92-95 his passing improved and he was capable of also leading dominant title teams so those three will be my picks here.

1. 93 Hakeem 7-7 team to 55 wins and elevated in the playoffs
2. 94 Hakeem
3. 95 Hakeem
I think u could probably also push for 86, 88, or 95 hakeem.

63 bill russell
took average teams to dynasties, won a ring with a bad team in 69. along with wilt better than any modern peak relative to era.

2017 Steph Curry
I'm putting him here largely because of draymond's arguments and curry seeems to have a good case for this spot based on various impact stuff like Backpicks bpm/whatever. Curry also would probably destroy previous eras if you transported him with his unprecedented range and his defense is fine. But i could be persuaded to put magic or duncan ahead. I'm skeptical on bird, but it's not impossible


Have some doubts on hakeem now, but as we're already ay 7, i don't think they matter too much here
its my last message in this thread, but I just admit, that all the people, casual and analytical minds, more or less have consencus who has the weight of a rubberized duck. And its not JaivLLLL
falcolombardi
General Manager
Posts: 9,264
And1: 6,851
Joined: Apr 13, 2021
       

Re: RealGM Greatest Peaks Project (2022): #7 

Post#87 » by falcolombardi » Sat Jul 9, 2022 10:55 pm

I am considering bird vs magic vs curry vs garnett vs robinson vs walton vs julius vs mikan for my 3rd pick

I think i will leave mikan as the last among all guys who were best in the world at some point, he may be the most dominant player ever but the era context is a big handicap for me
Doctor MJ
Senior Mod
Senior Mod
Posts: 52,694
And1: 21,633
Joined: Mar 10, 2005
Location: Cali
     

Re: RealGM Greatest Peaks Project (2022): #7 

Post#88 » by Doctor MJ » Sat Jul 9, 2022 11:13 pm

70sFan wrote:I will focus this time on why I decided to go with 1993 Hakeem over 1994 version. To make it short - it's because Hakeem was considerably more active defensively in 1993. By my tracking sample, here are the number of high quality contests per game for 1992/93 vs 1993/94:

1992/93 (11 games): 9.5 high quality contests per game, 2.2 weak contests per game
1993/94 (24 games): 6.8 high quality contests per game, 2.5 weak contests per game

Hakeem was clearly more engaged on defensive end when he was younger and although some people might call him too agressive as a rim protector, he didn't average that many fouls in 1993 (same as in 1994 in RS and less in the playoffs).

Another thing is that Hakeem was more willing to go out on perimeter chasing guards on P&Rs in 1993. In 1994 playoffs, he often struggled to defend P&Rs in space and started playing drop coverage more (which he wasn't great at). Here is my post from a different thread talking about it with some examples:


I like seeing this data. Do you have more along these lines you have shared or are able to share? Thanks!
Getting ready for the RealGM 100 on the PC Board

Come join the WNBA Board if you're a fan!
OhayoKD
Lead Assistant
Posts: 5,903
And1: 3,849
Joined: Jun 22, 2022
 

Re: RealGM Greatest Peaks Project (2022): #7 

Post#89 » by OhayoKD » Sat Jul 9, 2022 11:47 pm

DraymondGold wrote:
ty 4191 wrote:Not planning on voting, as yet, but I have to throw my hat in the ring for Jokic.

Why is it that seemingly nobody here considers how much deeper and stronger the NBA is today, vs. previous decades? Can anyone answer that one?

Nikola Jokic, 2022:

People will probably laugh, but this is the greatest all-around season I've seen. Missing the team's two greatest players, by far, in Murray and MPJ for the entire season, Jokic took a bunch of scrubs to 48 wins and a 6th Seed in the West. Probably no player in history could have taken (this year's) Nuggets to a victory over the fully healthy Warriors squad in the First Round this past season.

The league is far deeper and harder to dominate than it ever had been before. No Expansion since 2004 and a Fully Globalized NBA. Just look at these facts:

Image

Image

Image

Consider: None of these guys would likely even be playing in the NBA prior to the 2010's!!

As far as Jokic's dominance, in the past 161 games (including the 2021 & 2022 Playoffs, dating back to the beginning of last season), Jokic has put up a slash line of:

27.0/12.3/7.9 (while leading all centers in steals by a huge margin) on .606 eFG% and +8.0 rTS% (while taking 596 threes as a Center).

--The only player in NBA history to put up a slash line of 27.0/12.3/7.9 in any single season is Oscar Robertson, all the way back in 61'-62', and he did it in a game that featured 127 possessions per game, playing 44 MPG.

--Jokic, on the other hand, has done this in a league averaging only 102 possessions per game, and while playing only 34 MPG.

And, Jokic has sustained this for the equivalent of two full seasons!!!

Jokic's defense was dramatically improved this year, also:

https://fivethirtyeight.com/features/nikola-jokic-bolstered-his-mvp-case-with-his-defense/#:~:text=His%20defensive%20rebounding%20percentage%20has,9.1)%20while%20committing%20fewer%20fouls.

Single Season All Time Records set by Jokic this year, in the deepest and hardest to dominate NBA ever:

-Player Efficiency Rating
-Box Plus Minus

Great article on Jokic's all time great 2020-2021 Season. And, he only got that much better this year:

https://bleacherreport.com/articles/2944312-nikola-jokic-just-dominated-one-of-the-strongest-mvp-fields-ever


Really interesting stats on Jokic. It’s definitely some compelling stuff about the general improvement of the league.

On a broader note, I appreciate your dedication to trying to develop measurements of competition / opponent difficulty. I think it’s an underrated influence, especially as it relates to winning bias. Some players are just seen as “Winners” for certain championships or accomplishments while others are seen as inherent “losers,” but the truth is that both cases are highly context dependent. Like you indicate, Teammates, coaches, health, opponents, even random shooting luck can change the outcome of a series or even a season. But that sense of chance and randomness can be hard to convey against the weight of the media and the narratives.

I do understand and share some of your frustration. It can certainly feel like you raise convincing points then the next day you see a flurry of votes without much discussion that all ignore the points you raised. And that can definitely be frustrating! I have to imagine though it’s hard for everyone to reply to all the points being raised. There’s a lot of people voting and a lot of players to vote for! There’s no guarantee, but I’d like to hope everyone at least reads all the comments before posting.

For Jokic, I definitely have him higher than top 25, though to me I’m not sure if he’s in this tier that has a top-10 argument yet. I love his offense, and I do think defensive narratives can be overblown (e.g. people saying Gobert / Curry / Jokic are all complete liabilities in the playoffs). Some people complain that people are slow to credit newer players with having historically great peaks (e.g. perceptions of Curry and LeBron’s peaks have gotten higher over the years). And it might be true that people are slow to give proper credit, but there is something to the fact that seeing a player for longer can give us a larger sample for data and give us more context in our film analysis. For example, if he performs just as well in 2023 in the metrics, that would give us a better 3 year sample for data.

Re; Jokic Defense, I do think his increased defensive performance in 2022 is real, and that’s one of the reasons I have 2022 Jokic > 2021 Jokic. That said, I still do have playoff concerns. To be clear, the Warriors were just about the worst matchup they could get, especially without his supporting cast. And I also think it’s understated that modern offenses can dent big man’s overall defensive value. Thinking Basketball did a study that showed that on average, big men decline more in the playoffs than other positions, and he credits a lot of that to declining defensive value, since slower big man are relentlessly hunted as mismatches on the perimeter. Now Jokic can’t help that he’s playing in the hardest era for big man to have defensive value, but it’s hard to know just how positive he would be against a non-Warriors team without seeing it. That’s another reason why he might rise later on — if he performs great in the 2023 playoffs and isn’t a liability on defense against non-Warriors teams, that might also retroactively give us more confidence in his defensive potential in the 2022 playoffs.

Since I’m starting to see a few more modern names, here's a Statistical Comparison of Modern Peaks: Curry > Giannis ~ Jokic > Paul > KD ~ Kawhi > Harden
Spoiler:
Here are the years for the players: 2014/2015 CP3, 2014/2016/2017 KD, 2016/2017 Curry, 2017/2019/2021 Kawhi, 2019/2020/2021 Giannis, 2021/2022 Jokic. I changed my normal stats around a bit since we’re using modern players only (no prime WOWY data yet, WS/48 is clearly the worst stat in the old group. Now adding RAPTOR, LEBRON, DARKO to replace them).

Plus minus data
Ai. AuPM: 16/17 Curry > 19/20/21 Giannis ~ 21/22 Jokic ~ 14/15 Paul > 14/16/17 KD > 118/19/20 Harden > 17/19/21 Kawhi
Aii. Postseason AuPM: Curry > Paul > Kawhi (better in 17) ~ Giannis > KD ~ Jokic (better in 19/22, worse in 20/21) > Harden
Bi. Goldstein RAPM: Curry > Paul > Giannis > Kawhi > KD > Harden [missing Jokic 21/22, though 19 Jokic is lower]
Bii. Goldstein RS/Playoff PIPM: Curry > Giannis > Paul > Kawhi > KD > Jokic (missing 2022) > Haden
C. Fivethirtyeight’s Overall RAPTOR +/-: Jokic > Curry > Paul > Harden > Kawhi > Giannis > KD
Note: this is a per 75 stat. If we do per season volume, Curry rise and KD rise, but per season Raptor rewards long playoff
runs.
D. Bball-Index’s LEBRON: 19/20 Giannis (21/22 Giannis is much lower) > Jokic > Curry > KD (14’s higher than 17) > Paul > Harden > Kawhi
E. DARKO: Curry > Giannis > Paul > Kawhi > KD > Jokic > Harden
F. Additional plus minus stats: ESPN’s RPM: Jokic > Curry > Giannis > Paul > Harden > KD > Kawhi
G. Additional plus minus stats: Backpicks’ CORP evaluation: Curry > KD > Giannis > Paul > Kawhi > Harden > 19/20 Jokic [no stat for 21/22 Jokic]


Box score-based data
Hi. Backpicks BPM: Curry > Jokic > Harden > KD > Giannis > Paul > Kawhi
Hii. Postseason Backpicks BPM: 21 Kawhi (17 below Jokic, 19 lower) > Curry ~ 17 KD (14 is bottom) > Paul > Jokic > Giannis ~ Harden
Ii. BR’s BPM: Jokic > Curry > Giannis > Harden > KD > Paul > Kawhi
Iii. BR’s Postseason BPM: Kawhi > Jokic > Giannis > KD > Curry > Paul > Harden
General thoughts:
1) Curry’s clearly at the top.
2-3) If we give Jokic a favorable interpretation for the missing 2022 stats, Jokic and Giannis come next (Younger 19/20 Jokic is clearly worse than 19/20 Giannis, but 21/22 Jokic seems to beat 21/22 Giannis, at least in the stats that have been updated through 22. You might be lower on Jokic if you're concerned about his postseason defensive resilience, and you might be lower on Giannis if you're concerned about his postseason offensive resilience.)
4) Paul is not far behind. (though many people argue is overrated by +/- stats, partially because they doesn’t always account for postseason injury risk. He's also not as portable as the competition).
5-6) KD and Kawhi come next. (Some might argue KD’s portability and resilience could boost him. Kawhi’s at the very bottom of the regular season-only stats, and he rises in full-season or playoff-only stats. Note that playoff-only stats don’t count missed games from injury).
7) Harden’s near the bottom in both regular season, and he loses ground in postseason-only stats.

I'm suprised curry's so clearly ahead of giannis. I thought Giannis was an impact darling.
its my last message in this thread, but I just admit, that all the people, casual and analytical minds, more or less have consencus who has the weight of a rubberized duck. And its not JaivLLLL
capfan33
Pro Prospect
Posts: 856
And1: 743
Joined: May 21, 2022
 

Re: RealGM Greatest Peaks Project (2022): #7 

Post#90 » by capfan33 » Sun Jul 10, 2022 12:07 am

Doctor MJ wrote:
70sFan wrote:I will focus this time on why I decided to go with 1993 Hakeem over 1994 version. To make it short - it's because Hakeem was considerably more active defensively in 1993. By my tracking sample, here are the number of high quality contests per game for 1992/93 vs 1993/94:

1992/93 (11 games): 9.5 high quality contests per game, 2.2 weak contests per game
1993/94 (24 games): 6.8 high quality contests per game, 2.5 weak contests per game

Hakeem was clearly more engaged on defensive end when he was younger and although some people might call him too agressive as a rim protector, he didn't average that many fouls in 1993 (same as in 1994 in RS and less in the playoffs).

Another thing is that Hakeem was more willing to go out on perimeter chasing guards on P&Rs in 1993. In 1994 playoffs, he often struggled to defend P&Rs in space and started playing drop coverage more (which he wasn't great at). Here is my post from a different thread talking about it with some examples:


I like seeing this data. Do you have more along these lines you have shared or are able to share? Thanks!


You may have missed it Doc, it's on page 4.
Doctor MJ
Senior Mod
Senior Mod
Posts: 52,694
And1: 21,633
Joined: Mar 10, 2005
Location: Cali
     

Re: RealGM Greatest Peaks Project (2022): #7 

Post#91 » by Doctor MJ » Sun Jul 10, 2022 12:09 am

70sFan wrote:I haven't finished tracking Russell games yet, but I have finished the majority of them for now. Here are the numbers similar to the ones I posted for Hakeem, Kareem, Wilt and Shaq before:

Rim protection

1962-69 Russell (estimated): 9.4 high quality contests per game, 2.5 weak contests per game

1993-94 Hakeem: 7.7 high quality contests per game, 1.9 weak contests per game
1962-67 Wilt (estimated): 7.1 high quality contests per game, 2.7 weak contests per game
1971-79 Kareem: 6.4 high quality contests per game, 2.5 weak contests per game
2000 Shaq: 3.7 high quality contests per game, 2.8 weak contests per game
1982-83 Moses: 3.2 high quality contests per game, 3.0 weak contests per game

Help rotations inside

1962-69 Russell (estimated): 2.8 high quality rotations per game, 0.8 bad rotations per game

1993-94 Hakeem: 3.6 high quality rotations per game, 1.3 bad rotations per game
1962-67 Wilt (estimated): 1.0 high quality rotations per game, 1.2 bad rotations per game
1971-79 Kareem: 3.1 high quality rotations per game, 2.2 bad rotations per game
2000 Shaq: 1.4 high quality rotations per game, 1.8 bad rotations per game
1982-83 Moses: 1.3 high quality rotations per game, 1.4 bad rotations per game

I will post a few Russell clips to help you understand why I think his defense would translate to future eras better than anyone's.

Perimeter Defense



Rookie Russell pressures Pettit on perimeter and Bob tried to blow him by with a quick first step. Notice Russell's unreal recovery time and very light footwork. He blocked Pettit's layup attempt with his right hand - that's important since a lot of shotblockers are one hand dominant, but not Russell.



Russell in his last year, at 35 years old switching onto perimeter, pressuring opponent and closing out long jumpshots. Look how effortless he moved despite the age.

I will post more when I get a new footage from 1964 ECF (it should be ready next week).

Over 46% of P&Rs defended by Russell were switched by Bill. In comparison:

Hakeem: 22%
Wilt: 21%
Kareem: 20%
Shaq: 10%
Moses: 15%

Note that Shaq's and Wilt's numbers could be a bit overstated due to them playing in deep drop coverage, to the point that I didn't count all of their P&R defensive possessions.

Sample of size isn't massive, but it seems that Russell was more willing to pressure perimeter players than any other center that I tracked so far. The numbers can change after I finish my evaluation, but it is a clear pattern when I watch Russell.


Love this and feel dumb I didn't keep scrolling before requesting more.

Definitely interested in all you're doing here!
Getting ready for the RealGM 100 on the PC Board

Come join the WNBA Board if you're a fan!
DraymondGold
Senior
Posts: 587
And1: 748
Joined: May 19, 2022

Re: RealGM Greatest Peaks Project (2022): #7 

Post#92 » by DraymondGold » Sun Jul 10, 2022 12:44 am

capfan33 wrote:
Doctor MJ wrote:
70sFan wrote:I will focus this time on why I decided to go with 1993 Hakeem over 1994 version. To make it short - it's because Hakeem was considerably more active defensively in 1993. By my tracking sample, here are the number of high quality contests per game for 1992/93 vs 1993/94:

1992/93 (11 games): 9.5 high quality contests per game, 2.2 weak contests per game
1993/94 (24 games): 6.8 high quality contests per game, 2.5 weak contests per game

Hakeem was clearly more engaged on defensive end when he was younger and although some people might call him too agressive as a rim protector, he didn't average that many fouls in 1993 (same as in 1994 in RS and less in the playoffs).

Another thing is that Hakeem was more willing to go out on perimeter chasing guards on P&Rs in 1993. In 1994 playoffs, he often struggled to defend P&Rs in space and started playing drop coverage more (which he wasn't great at). Here is my post from a different thread talking about it with some examples:


I like seeing this data. Do you have more along these lines you have shared or are able to share? Thanks!


You may have missed it Doc, it's on page 4.

70sFan wrote:I haven't finished tracking Russell games yet, but I have finished the majority of them for now. Here are the numbers similar to the ones I posted for Hakeem, Kareem, Wilt and Shaq before:

Rim protection

1962-69 Russell (estimated): 9.4 high quality contests per game, 2.5 weak contests per game

1993-94 Hakeem: 7.7 high quality contests per game, 1.9 weak contests per game
1962-67 Wilt (estimated): 7.1 high quality contests per game, 2.7 weak contests per game
1971-79 Kareem: 6.4 high quality contests per game, 2.5 weak contests per game
2000 Shaq: 3.7 high quality contests per game, 2.8 weak contests per game
1982-83 Moses: 3.2 high quality contests per game, 3.0 weak contests per game

Help rotations inside

1962-69 Russell (estimated): 2.8 high quality rotations per game, 0.8 bad rotations per game

1993-94 Hakeem: 3.6 high quality rotations per game, 1.3 bad rotations per game
1962-67 Wilt (estimated): 1.0 high quality rotations per game, 1.2 bad rotations per game
1971-79 Kareem: 3.1 high quality rotations per game, 2.2 bad rotations per game
2000 Shaq: 1.4 high quality rotations per game, 1.8 bad rotations per game
1982-83 Moses: 1.3 high quality rotations per game, 1.4 bad rotations per game

I will post a few Russell clips to help you understand why I think his defense would translate to future eras better than anyone's.

Perimeter Defense



Rookie Russell pressures Pettit on perimeter and Bob tried to blow him by with a quick first step. Notice Russell's unreal recovery time and very light footwork. He blocked Pettit's layup attempt with his right hand - that's important since a lot of shotblockers are one hand dominant, but not Russell.



Russell in his last year, at 35 years old switching onto perimeter, pressuring opponent and closing out long jumpshots. Look how effortless he moved despite the age.

I will post more when I get a new footage from 1964 ECF (it should be ready next week).

Over 46% of P&Rs defended by Russell were switched by Bill. In comparison:

Hakeem: 22%
Wilt: 21%
Kareem: 20%
Shaq: 10%
Moses: 15%

Note that Shaq's and Wilt's numbers could be a bit overstated due to them playing in deep drop coverage, to the point that I didn't count all of their P&R defensive possessions.

Sample of size isn't massive, but it seems that Russell was more willing to pressure perimeter players than any other center that I tracked so far. The numbers can change after I finish my evaluation, but it is a clear pattern when I watch Russell.
Great stuff as always 70sFan :D

Rim protection: I think it's worth noting that Russell has higher volume than 93-94 Hakeem, but both have roughly the same rate of success (~80% high quality rim contests to 20% low quality contests). Hakeem does close the volume gap if we just look at 93, per your numbers, but then again it's worth remembering that you gave the numbers for Russell's full prime! Who knows how much better Russell would look if we just gave his peak (e.g. somewhere in ~1962-1965).

To me, their similar rate of good rim protection matches that they're also similar as man defenders. Both clearly fit as 2 of the top 3 best big-man man defenders of all time, along with Nate Thurmond. [source: See time 19:37 in the video I link here:]
Help rotations inside: it makes sense that Russell has a higher rate of help rotations inside (~78% good rotations to Hakeem's 73%). Still, I'm surprised by Hakeem's volume advantage. Perhaps once again this is a case of Russell's prime vs 1 year for Hakeem?

Perimeter Defense: and here we yet again see Russell on top, matching the reputation. To me, what makes Russell such a compelling defender is not necessarily that he's the absolute best in every skill, or that he's an absolute outlier at one skill -- it's that he's so near the top in every category. Top 3 man defender, probably top 3 rim protector, top 3 with inside help rotations inside per your metrics, and probably top 3 PNR defender / perimeter defender too. Wow!

I wonder -- I know you haven't done tracking for KG yet, but how would you guess Russell's PNR/perimeter defensive ability compares to KG's?
SickMother
Senior
Posts: 677
And1: 634
Joined: Jul 10, 2010

Re: RealGM Greatest Peaks Project (2022): #7 

Post#93 » by SickMother » Sun Jul 10, 2022 1:02 am

DraymondGold wrote:Hi y'all! I think we rate Curry vs the competition a bit differently, and I haven't seen your replies to any of the arguments in favor of Curry yet, so I thought I might start a discussion to understand your perspective better. (apologies if you have and I just missed it!)

To me, there's been some pretty convincing arguments for Curry over this competition (though I am biased since I'm one of the ones making the arguments :lol: ). For example, people have shown he has a favorable case over Hakeem by the impact stats, by a skill comparison (e.g. comparing scoring vs playmaking vs defense), by in-depth film analysis, and by qualitative analysis (e.g. using scalability arguments, time-machine arguments, etc.)

Is there any reason why you're rating Curry lower? Is there anything in those arguments do you don't find convincing? Feel free to raise any points in favor of other players too if you think I'm underrating them :)


For me personally I've got Curry in my next grouping of three along with Russell & Hakeem, though I haven't decided on the exact order just yet (& depending on who wins this round I might have some time still to sort it out).

There's essentially two reasons I voted for Doctor/Magic/Bird's peaks over Curry. The main one is I think the three guys I voted for all have more well rounded games than Steph does.

A secondary reason is Steph doesn't have one season where he put it all together start to finish. 15-16 is a greatest regular season ever contender, but he got hurt in the playoffs. 16-17 is a greatest postseason ever contender, but Curry had the worst shooting regular season of his prime & the waters are muddied by KD on top of it all.

One thing I am pretty sure of is I'll be voting for 14-15 Curry once he makes my ballot because it's a combo of his 2nd best regular season & playoff run, plus it kicked off the whole GSW dynasty in the first place. That he did it with no KD makes it all the more impressive.
iggymcfrack
RealGM
Posts: 11,497
And1: 9,006
Joined: Sep 26, 2017

Re: RealGM Greatest Peaks Project (2022): #7 

Post#94 » by iggymcfrack » Sun Jul 10, 2022 1:10 am

70sFan wrote:
iggymcfrack wrote:I know it was just a throwaway comment in an unrelated argument, but I don't think Curry would lose anywhere near as much in 1962 as you'd think. Steph has a career EFG% of .581. The league average this year was .532. Meanwhile, Curry has a career FG% of .473. The league average for that stat in 1962 was .426. Even without a 3-point shot available, he'd be outperforming the league average by a similar amount.

I don't think you realize how much of a difference it makes for Curry. Using very crude estimation you just did:

Curry's career: 62.4 TS%, 58.1 eFG%, 114 TS+

Curry without 3P adjusted for 1962 averages: 52.6 TS%, 47.3 eFG%, 110 TS+

That would make Curry less efficient than quite a high volume scorers (including Wilt). It's not a good way to evaluate cross-era comparisons though, which brings us to...

Now take into account that the league was used to not guarding people even close to Curry's range. Even when they adjusted, they still wouldn't have experience trying to follow a shooter that closely off of screens on the perimeter and Curry would undoubtedly shoot significantly better than he does today. Furthermore, if they suddenly have a guy they have to guard from 30 feet when they hardly have to guard anyone else in the league past 15 feet, his gravity would warp the court even more than it does today and would get amazing looks for his teammates. I think there's a strong argument that Curry would be just as dominant if not more in the '60s than he is in the modern game.

You are doing it completely wrong here. It's true that 1960s players weren't used to defend someone like Curry in a way modern teams do... but they wouldn't need to. Curry is extremely dangerous outside 30 feet strictly because him shooting 40% on threes is extremely efficient offense. Curry shooting 40% long range jumpshots from 30 feet without three point line leads to 0.8 ppp, which is horrible even for 1960s standards. Even if we assume that he'd make more threes with less pressure, 45% still doesn't generate strong offense.

Curry would be still a freak with his shooting, but the same plays wouldn't have the same value. Teams would be able to live with Curry taking a lot of long threes unguarded, because that would never lead to elite offense - unless Curry gets extremely hot. So even though he'd still score a lot of points, his off-ball gravity would be significantly less impactful. That's what makes him so dangerous and you don't have that anymore. You basically leave us with better shooting, but smaller and worse defensively version of Jerry West instead.

By the way, I don't think Curry would make threes at significantly better rate, even with less defensive pressure. Balls were much different back then and we can see how big of an impact it had on players, when the NBA changed balls at the beginning of 1969/70 season and league FT% went way higher than ever before.


That's really interesting about the balls. I'd never heard that before. This is why I love your posts even when we disagree strongly on certain issues. Do you know what exactly was different about the balls exactly?

It looks like between the FT% and the FG% from the 3 years before the change to the 3 years after, it accounted for about a 2% difference. I think this could be largely accounted for with Curry taking more midrange jumpers where he's 46% for his career. Also, I couldn't find a completely up-to-date stat on Curry's super long range shooting, but I found an article from last year that said he's 47% between 30 and 34 feet for his career. I think you're underrating how much of a weapon his long range shooting could be even with no 3 point line. Your "0.8 PPP" sounds worse than it would be in reality even with your estimated shooting numbers because you're not accounting for offensive rebounds.

Getting a shot off in the halfcourt offense at slightly below league average efficiency before you have any chance to turn the ball over absolutely has value since transition possessions are so much more valuable. We obviously don't have data on how much more effective transition possessions were compared to halfcourt ones in 1962, but in 2022, halfcourt possessions are typically worth .045 less points per possession than an average possession accounting for the high value fastbreaks. I'd imagine that the difference between halfcourt offense and transition would be even higher in the early days of the NBA if anything. So in 1962, the baseline for a league average halfcourt possession would be around 40% with a typical turnover rate.

Curry's shooting could also be a weapon late in the shot clock (although admittedly this probably didn't come up much in 1962 with the frenetic pace they played). Furthermore, in an era where teams were crashing the offensive boards very aggressively, having a PG who was always back behind everyone on defense to snuff out fast breaks off of defensive rebounds would be very valuable as well. There's a reason that so many teams abandon offensive rebounding with their guards and even their forwards altogether nowadays. In a hyptothetical where teams decided that they were just going to continually let Curry shoot the entire season every time he attempted a shot from 30+ feet, I imagine he'd be a big time weapon for both the offense and the defense. Just imagine a team who's slightly more efficient than league average, but never turns the ball over in the halfcourt and gives up transition opportunities off a rebound less than anyone else in the league. Doesn't that sound like a formidable opponent? Now imagine you can surround him with extra rebounders and defensive studs, not having to worry about shot creation from anyone else on the floor. I think a hypothetical San Francisco Warriors team with Steph Curry on the floor would take down Russell's Celtics much more often than not if he kept getting free looks from 30 feet.
iggymcfrack
RealGM
Posts: 11,497
And1: 9,006
Joined: Sep 26, 2017

Re: RealGM Greatest Peaks Project (2022): #7 

Post#95 » by iggymcfrack » Sun Jul 10, 2022 1:39 am

OhayoKD wrote:
DraymondGold wrote:
ty 4191 wrote:Not planning on voting, as yet, but I have to throw my hat in the ring for Jokic.

Why is it that seemingly nobody here considers how much deeper and stronger the NBA is today, vs. previous decades? Can anyone answer that one?

Nikola Jokic, 2022:

People will probably laugh, but this is the greatest all-around season I've seen. Missing the team's two greatest players, by far, in Murray and MPJ for the entire season, Jokic took a bunch of scrubs to 48 wins and a 6th Seed in the West. Probably no player in history could have taken (this year's) Nuggets to a victory over the fully healthy Warriors squad in the First Round this past season.

The league is far deeper and harder to dominate than it ever had been before. No Expansion since 2004 and a Fully Globalized NBA. Just look at these facts:

Image

Image

Image

Consider: None of these guys would likely even be playing in the NBA prior to the 2010's!!

As far as Jokic's dominance, in the past 161 games (including the 2021 & 2022 Playoffs, dating back to the beginning of last season), Jokic has put up a slash line of:

27.0/12.3/7.9 (while leading all centers in steals by a huge margin) on .606 eFG% and +8.0 rTS% (while taking 596 threes as a Center).

--The only player in NBA history to put up a slash line of 27.0/12.3/7.9 in any single season is Oscar Robertson, all the way back in 61'-62', and he did it in a game that featured 127 possessions per game, playing 44 MPG.

--Jokic, on the other hand, has done this in a league averaging only 102 possessions per game, and while playing only 34 MPG.

And, Jokic has sustained this for the equivalent of two full seasons!!!

Jokic's defense was dramatically improved this year, also:

https://fivethirtyeight.com/features/nikola-jokic-bolstered-his-mvp-case-with-his-defense/#:~:text=His%20defensive%20rebounding%20percentage%20has,9.1)%20while%20committing%20fewer%20fouls.

Single Season All Time Records set by Jokic this year, in the deepest and hardest to dominate NBA ever:

-Player Efficiency Rating
-Box Plus Minus

Great article on Jokic's all time great 2020-2021 Season. And, he only got that much better this year:

https://bleacherreport.com/articles/2944312-nikola-jokic-just-dominated-one-of-the-strongest-mvp-fields-ever


Really interesting stats on Jokic. It’s definitely some compelling stuff about the general improvement of the league.

On a broader note, I appreciate your dedication to trying to develop measurements of competition / opponent difficulty. I think it’s an underrated influence, especially as it relates to winning bias. Some players are just seen as “Winners” for certain championships or accomplishments while others are seen as inherent “losers,” but the truth is that both cases are highly context dependent. Like you indicate, Teammates, coaches, health, opponents, even random shooting luck can change the outcome of a series or even a season. But that sense of chance and randomness can be hard to convey against the weight of the media and the narratives.

I do understand and share some of your frustration. It can certainly feel like you raise convincing points then the next day you see a flurry of votes without much discussion that all ignore the points you raised. And that can definitely be frustrating! I have to imagine though it’s hard for everyone to reply to all the points being raised. There’s a lot of people voting and a lot of players to vote for! There’s no guarantee, but I’d like to hope everyone at least reads all the comments before posting.

For Jokic, I definitely have him higher than top 25, though to me I’m not sure if he’s in this tier that has a top-10 argument yet. I love his offense, and I do think defensive narratives can be overblown (e.g. people saying Gobert / Curry / Jokic are all complete liabilities in the playoffs). Some people complain that people are slow to credit newer players with having historically great peaks (e.g. perceptions of Curry and LeBron’s peaks have gotten higher over the years). And it might be true that people are slow to give proper credit, but there is something to the fact that seeing a player for longer can give us a larger sample for data and give us more context in our film analysis. For example, if he performs just as well in 2023 in the metrics, that would give us a better 3 year sample for data.

Re; Jokic Defense, I do think his increased defensive performance in 2022 is real, and that’s one of the reasons I have 2022 Jokic > 2021 Jokic. That said, I still do have playoff concerns. To be clear, the Warriors were just about the worst matchup they could get, especially without his supporting cast. And I also think it’s understated that modern offenses can dent big man’s overall defensive value. Thinking Basketball did a study that showed that on average, big men decline more in the playoffs than other positions, and he credits a lot of that to declining defensive value, since slower big man are relentlessly hunted as mismatches on the perimeter. Now Jokic can’t help that he’s playing in the hardest era for big man to have defensive value, but it’s hard to know just how positive he would be against a non-Warriors team without seeing it. That’s another reason why he might rise later on — if he performs great in the 2023 playoffs and isn’t a liability on defense against non-Warriors teams, that might also retroactively give us more confidence in his defensive potential in the 2022 playoffs.

Since I’m starting to see a few more modern names, here's a Statistical Comparison of Modern Peaks: Curry > Giannis ~ Jokic > Paul > KD ~ Kawhi > Harden
Spoiler:
Here are the years for the players: 2014/2015 CP3, 2014/2016/2017 KD, 2016/2017 Curry, 2017/2019/2021 Kawhi, 2019/2020/2021 Giannis, 2021/2022 Jokic. I changed my normal stats around a bit since we’re using modern players only (no prime WOWY data yet, WS/48 is clearly the worst stat in the old group. Now adding RAPTOR, LEBRON, DARKO to replace them).

Plus minus data
Ai. AuPM: 16/17 Curry > 19/20/21 Giannis ~ 21/22 Jokic ~ 14/15 Paul > 14/16/17 KD > 118/19/20 Harden > 17/19/21 Kawhi
Aii. Postseason AuPM: Curry > Paul > Kawhi (better in 17) ~ Giannis > KD ~ Jokic (better in 19/22, worse in 20/21) > Harden
Bi. Goldstein RAPM: Curry > Paul > Giannis > Kawhi > KD > Harden [missing Jokic 21/22, though 19 Jokic is lower]
Bii. Goldstein RS/Playoff PIPM: Curry > Giannis > Paul > Kawhi > KD > Jokic (missing 2022) > Haden
C. Fivethirtyeight’s Overall RAPTOR +/-: Jokic > Curry > Paul > Harden > Kawhi > Giannis > KD
Note: this is a per 75 stat. If we do per season volume, Curry rise and KD rise, but per season Raptor rewards long playoff
runs.
D. Bball-Index’s LEBRON: 19/20 Giannis (21/22 Giannis is much lower) > Jokic > Curry > KD (14’s higher than 17) > Paul > Harden > Kawhi
E. DARKO: Curry > Giannis > Paul > Kawhi > KD > Jokic > Harden
F. Additional plus minus stats: ESPN’s RPM: Jokic > Curry > Giannis > Paul > Harden > KD > Kawhi
G. Additional plus minus stats: Backpicks’ CORP evaluation: Curry > KD > Giannis > Paul > Kawhi > Harden > 19/20 Jokic [no stat for 21/22 Jokic]


Box score-based data
Hi. Backpicks BPM: Curry > Jokic > Harden > KD > Giannis > Paul > Kawhi
Hii. Postseason Backpicks BPM: 21 Kawhi (17 below Jokic, 19 lower) > Curry ~ 17 KD (14 is bottom) > Paul > Jokic > Giannis ~ Harden
Ii. BR’s BPM: Jokic > Curry > Giannis > Harden > KD > Paul > Kawhi
Iii. BR’s Postseason BPM: Kawhi > Jokic > Giannis > KD > Curry > Paul > Harden
General thoughts:
1) Curry’s clearly at the top.
2-3) If we give Jokic a favorable interpretation for the missing 2022 stats, Jokic and Giannis come next (Younger 19/20 Jokic is clearly worse than 19/20 Giannis, but 21/22 Jokic seems to beat 21/22 Giannis, at least in the stats that have been updated through 22. You might be lower on Jokic if you're concerned about his postseason defensive resilience, and you might be lower on Giannis if you're concerned about his postseason offensive resilience.)
4) Paul is not far behind. (though many people argue is overrated by +/- stats, partially because they doesn’t always account for postseason injury risk. He's also not as portable as the competition).
5-6) KD and Kawhi come next. (Some might argue KD’s portability and resilience could boost him. Kawhi’s at the very bottom of the regular season-only stats, and he rises in full-season or playoff-only stats. Note that playoff-only stats don’t count missed games from injury).
7) Harden’s near the bottom in both regular season, and he loses ground in postseason-only stats.

I'm suprised curry's so clearly ahead of giannis. I thought Giannis was an impact darling.


He is. I mean, from a box score perspective, if you want to look at PER, Giannis had the 3rd best box score season of all-time while playing top 10 defense with good to very good playmaking. That's going to show a bigger impact than almost anyone ever. The problem is that the guy he's competing with had the best box score season of all-time with top 5 playmaking while playing good to very good defense by all the advanced metrics. Giannis was up against a supernova this season.

Now, if you wanna say Giannis is still more valuable when he turns that top 10 defense into top 2 or 3 defense in the playoffs against serious opponents, I won't argue. But it still makes sense why this sort of season from Jokic would be a near unanimous victory for Jokic. To look at it another way, Magic's best individual season by PER ranked 117th all-time (counting multiple seasons for the same player), but we still recognize him as a top 10 guy all-time, because his incredible, incredible passing/playmaking opens up so much for everyone else that doesn't show up in the box score. Well, Jokic is as unprecedented of a passer as a center as Magic was as a PG, but he's also a much better defender.

I do think Jokic deserves very serious consideration very soon. I still have 2021 Giannis over him because not only did he do it at an unbelievable level with one of the best statistical Finals of all-time, but also Jokic did have some flaws against Golden State. Yeah, he put up incredible all-time numbers in the playoffs still, but he did cost them on D at certain key moments moving very slow in help and the PnR. Is it very understandable while carrying an insane offensive load AND an injury? Of course! Is it something I'd want to punish a player for and say he didn't deserve the new defensive rep he earned in the season? Never! But if you're being compared to a guy who (nursing a much more serious injury!!!!!) averaged 35/13/5/2 on .658 TS% in the Finals including a clinching Game 6 where he put up 50/14/2 with 5 blocks on .749 TS%? To a guy who after being mocked worse at the free throw line than anyone in decades made 17 of his first 18 free throws to lock up a championship for his city before missing one meaningless one at the end? Jokic's season just is not the season I'm gonna choose.
User avatar
Proxy
Sophomore
Posts: 237
And1: 192
Joined: Jun 30, 2021
       

Re: RealGM Greatest Peaks Project (2022): #7 

Post#96 » by Proxy » Sun Jul 10, 2022 1:39 am

Proxy wrote:4.1962 Bill Russell (1964, 1963, 1965)
Image

Now number 4 is arguably the most influential player ever with how he transformed the way defense is played in the league forever.  The greatest defender ever, and the engine behind one of the greatest dynasties in sports history.

There are alot of reasons to believe Russell played a significant part in the Celtics team dominance and many have argued how he has a case for being the most valuable player of his era so I won't focus TOO much on that unless asked to.

Here are a few pretty strong indicators he has:

-We can see it on film and we can read/hear about the era in news articles and from others that have experienced the era.

-WOWY data(also looking at the team pre and post Russell and how the league changed over time).

-Team minutes distribution(how remained constant but everyone around him changed and played nowhere near the same amount of minutes in most years and they were still dominant), etc.

-

But i'll talk about why I believe their team net ratings still undersell how dominant they truly were like I did in the last thread for 2 main reasons.

1. Using the commonly used net ratings is not a true era adjustment - in lower scoring environments a team being worth +5 per 100 has more value, this can be seen when comparing the TS+ framework vs using rTS%.

Real life situations will never be this extreme but here is an example as to why we should use the former

In a league where the average TS% is 10, being +5 would mean you are scoring at a rate 1.5x(150% better) more effectively than league average

In a league where the average TS% is 50, being +5 would mean you are scoring at a rate 1.1x(110% better) more effectively than league average

When calculating net ratings using percentages rather than absolutes, the Celtcs would likely look even more dominant because the era they played in was a lower scoring environment and significantly harder for other teams to make up ground with less PPP available.

2. The Celtics having their outlier dominance in a league with 8 ish teams drags down league averages, supressing their own numbers, and makes it harder to drag them down even further(which is probably why their playoff team numbers look so wonky).

I'm also starting to believe Russell is just a very clear positive offensive player. I think many people think of him the wrong way because he does seem to have a bunch of flaws in the halfcourt on film(like his post scoring arsenal does not seem very efficient, turnovers even tho that just seems like an era thing).

Some of his unique-ness was shown in this video by WCA
https://youtu.be/PEs4KC4xHE0

When I think of him being a truly all-time level transition threat for a center with and without the ball, with great court awarenes, very strong passing for a center that even allowed him to work as the ball handler in pick-and-roll actions, a modern-ish handle that could take other bigs off the dribble, all-time offensive rebounding ability, a little bit of a post game, and lob potential with his athleticism. I really think this is a unicorn that could be a clear positive on most teams but maybe i'm just higher on him than others. 

You can see some of it in this game even past his peak
https://youtu.be/HE6kIu34Qsc

I think it's possible his RS efficiency is also suppressed by taking alot of late shot clock bailout shots(his teammates are also overstated offensively), I feel like i've seen this a lot on film.

But in the season I chose for his peak and in a large chunk of his prime not only does his efficiency rise, but his volume rose in the playoffs as well which is very rare for an all-timer.

From backpicks.com (from '60 - '66)
Going from a negative OBPM -> +.073 OBPM(Peaking as +1.2 in '62)

Other years could deserve a shot for sure, but from what I gathered this was the most dominant RS Celtics team in the RS and was followed by Russell's arguably best playoff run ever so I decided to go with this one and give him the slight edge over my upcoming picks.

Proxy wrote:-2017 Stephen Curry
Image
● Arguably the GOAT scoring regular season in 2016 - 42.5 points per 75/Lead leading scoring average of 30.1 PPG, on a game-breaking 124 TS+(!), leading the Dubs to a #1 ITW +8.1 rORTG(iirc this ranked t3 ever but they didnt go as much into offense as the 04 Mavs and 05 Suns and their -2.6 rDRTG got them to a >+10 net rating

●Warps defenses like no other with his shooting threat(spacing) and all-time off-ball movement(gravity). - All-time scalability contributed to unmatched team dominance with more talent wasadded. 15.4 box creation estimate in 2016 - arguably still understating his off-ball value(via backpicks.coms)

●Good passer for a PG, though not rly one of his stronger passing seasons - 7.6 passer rating via backpicks.com in 2017, decent turnover economy

●Solid POA defender, and is decent as a chaser which helps contribute to him being a good team defender, though his defense has improved in 2022 with added bulk, I'd still say he's a slight positive in the year chosen. Attacking Steph has also not really been that viable of a strategy generally and teams have mostly gotten bad offenses out of that so idk why people are so bent on that tbh. I think people struggle to understand that he gets attacked because he’s surrounded by a bunch of defenders better than him, not because he’s some bad or really exploitable defender or anything.

●For the stats, I'm sure you'll see Steph pop up at the top of any APM studies, with larger team samples showing that he deserves a significant amount of credit for team dominance(don't find his collinearity with Draymond a strong argument)

●Highest 5-year on/off and on court net rating of all-time: 15 - '19 Stephen Curry(+15.9 on-court net/+17.7 on/off)

●Many would however argue his effectiveness declines in the playoffs, however in the 2017 season into the playoffs when healthy, if there were any doubt about his resilience, I believe he was basically performing around the same level as a player as he was in 2016 - there were no significant change in his skillset, he rly just had a weird start at the start of the season when incorporating KD and when they took off they were arguably the best healthy team ever.

● There are still some indicators that suggest he still has extremely high, top 5 ish level impact in the playoffs - such as his on/off only taking a slight dip when taking only games he played in, and his change in scoring efficiency against stronger defenses in his prime isn't rly abnormal for an all-time standard, really only being dented by the Rockets switching defense and the Memphis Grizzlies in his prime and dismantling other all-time defenses like the 2019 Raptors and 2022 Celtics past his peak(though the physical changes arguably did help him a lot).

●Even without Klay and KD(arguably rly the only strong positive offensive players on some of those teams) - his scoring, and more importantly team dominance were extremely high in the playoffs - from 2016-2019 the Warriors had a 119 ORTG and +10 net rating without those two on the court via pbpstats.com (a very small sample of 287 minutes). Still, again I believe reinforces the idea that he was really the driving force behind the Warriors' dominance(+12 team net rating in the playoffs from 2015 to 2022 iirc).

●I'm not the biggest fan of using postseason one-number metrics at all(especially if they are hybrids because the box prior can underrate/overrate particular abilities, which I will go into on a future player), but even APM approximates like backpicks.com's AuPM/g paint 2017 playoffs Steph as having the 3rd highest peak on record of +7.5/g(!), right behind 2009 and 2017 LeBron and one spot ahead of Timmy in 2003. This makes sense seeing as how they had a staggering +17.2 net rating in those playoffs and still had a 123 ORTG in 127 minutes without Durant that year while they only had a 105 ORTG in an almost insignificant 60-minute sample with Durant and without Curry via pbpstats.com.

●I think of Steph similarly to how I think of Russell, both the driving forces behind two of the arguably top three dynasties to play the game with outlier-ish level value on one end and having a possibly misunderstood, underrated, positive value on the other end.

-2004 Kevin Garnett
Image
●Kevin Garnett IMO contributes more positive value in different aspects than any other player that has ever played the game. I’m running out of time so I’ll link some great breakdowns of his offense and defense and why he was one of the most valuable players on both ends by drza and I will just explain why I regard him so highly.

Offense: https://hoopslab.rotowire.com/post/150868850871/mechanisms-of-greatness-scouting-kevin-garnetts

Defense: https://hoopslab.rotowire.com/post/150844038866/mechanisms-of-greatness-scouting-kevin-garnetts

●Strengthening the argument that Kevin Garnett was one of the most valuable players of his era, arguably being THE most valuable at his peak in the regular season. KG in the 2003-04 season provided the highest single-season APM/g of +9.4 leading a pretty mediocre twolves cast to a +5.9 net rating, 58 wins, and the top of the western conference in the the deadball era, with a shot to make the finals if not for injury(via backpicks.com) and four other seasons in the top forty all-time. KG alongside LeBron stand alone at the top upon the top of any of these type of value measurements and they have an argument for being the top two most valuable players in the league in the 2000s(with Shaq and Timmy being right there too ofc for their peaks but Tim looking slightly behind).
Year by year in his prime:
1997 - +4.5
1998 - +4.8
1999 - +5
2000 - +6 (26th all–time)
2001 - +2.1
2002 - +3.6
2003 - +7.2(11th all-time)
2004 - +9.4(1st all-time)
2005 - +4.5
2006 - +4.6
2007(inj)  - +6.2 (23rd all-time)
2008 - +6.3 (21st all-time)
2009(inj) - +5.3
2010 - +3.5
2011 - +4.8
2012 - +3.2

●I would normally be skeptical of the 2003/2004 Wolves results as it is easier to be more valuable on a weaker team more dependent on his strengths, but the recurring signal in which he posted massive value signals again with an even stronger, less dependent team in Boston(a -8.6 rDRTG in his first season there - a +11.3 net rating in the RS and +8.8 and +8.6 PS team net rating in the '08 and '10 playoff runs respectively) matches the film suggesting that he was possibly the most versatile player of all-time, with his ability as both a floor raiser and ceiling raiser and that his results in Minnesota were not just some outlier that should be ignored.
The reason I am so high on KG is that I believe his game is actually extremely resilient to the playoffs and that people over-fixate on his scoring weaknesses, which leads to his value being understated in box metrics because of his scoring efficiency does drop(normal for an all-timer), the box score is also genuinely pretty bad at gauging defensive value that does have the possibility of increasing in value in the playoffs.  This scouting report  by SideshowBob from a few years ago describes some ways in which many aspects of his game can not be measured traditionally by box metrics, and in a larger sample of raw +/- data we see that his game may have translated well to the playoffs despite the drop in scoring efficiency:
SideshowBob wrote:

Garnett's offense can be broken down like this:

    -Spacing
    -PnR (Roll/Pop)
    -High-Post
    -Low-Post
    -Mid-Post
    -Screens


Remember, there is overlap between these offensive skills/features; I'm trying to give a broad-strokes perspective here.

Let's talk about his shooting really quick, and then dive in.  What I want to consider is how and which of these traits show up in the box-score, as well as which would be resilient in the face of smarter defenses.


-Has range out to the 3 pt line but practically/effectively speaking, he's going out to ~22 feet.
-From 10-23 feet, shot 47.7% in 03 (9.6 FGA/G), 45.2% in 04 (11.0 FGA/G), 44.6% in 05 (8.3 FGA/G), 48.4% in 06 (8.4 FGA/G)
-16-23 ft range, he's assisted on ~77% over those 4 years
-Shooting at the big-man positions is a conundrum - shooting 4/5s are often associated with weak (breakeven) or bad (negative) defense.  Garnett is one of the few exceptions in that not only is he an elite shooter, there's virtually no defensive opportunity cost to playing him over anyone in history.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

When he's on the ball, he can utilize his exceptional ball-handling skills to create separation and knock it down.  When he's off the ball, he's always a threat to convert - the fact that he's assisted so frequently on 16-23 ft shots means they're mostly coming on a Pick and Pop or a drive and kick, which means a lot of them are open.  He's usually shooting around 45% overall from there, so we're looking at high 40s on open shots and low-mid 40s on created ones.  BOTH of those numbers are strong, and that's where the first offensive trait comes; Spacing.  His shooting spaces the floor.  A LOT - despite the fact that he doesn't shoot 3s, he forces bigs out of the paint and opens up the lane.  Because he's not a 3-point shooter though, this effect doesn't really show up in the box-score.  And yet, this effect will always be present; doesn't matter how much a defense slows down his raw production in the playoffs, the spacing effect will always be present - he's going to try and create shots from out there and he's going to pop/spot-up; give him space/leave him open and he'll convert at .95-1.00 PPP (which is very strong in the halfcourt).  Cover him/recover on him with a little guy and he'll just shoot right over.  His man has to come out and try and cover him, and this means that there will always be a marginal improvement for the rest of the team with regards to the lane being open.  The only real way to reduce this?  Have someone at the 1-3 that can cover him (has the size/strength to cope with his shot/inside game for stretches at a time), but even then, you might yield a disadvantage with one of your bigs covering a small ball-handler. 

So next, his PnR game.  Crucially, he's a dual threat, he's deadly popping out (as demonstrated above) but even crazier rolling to the basket (high 60s-70ish finishing, that includes post/isolation, thus baskets on the roll would likely be higher.  The rolls are similar (though not equal) to drives to the basket and aside from finishing offer an opportunity to kick it out.  THIS aspect is captured fairly well by the box-score (rolls into finishes - FG%, finishes - PTS, kick outs - direct assists).  This is also one that good PnR defense teams can slow down.  Close off the PnR by stopping the ball handler (aggressive blitz/trap to force the ball out their hands before the PnR is initiated, or drop center, ice sideline to deny the ball-handler middle), or rely on strong rotations into the lane to close off easy baskets off a roll.  When we talk about his postseason dips (mainly PPG and TS%), this is mostly where they're coming from (and face up game which I'll get to later).

So now, the post options.  The high post probably yields the largest fraction of his offensive impact.  His scoring skills (again, ball-handling to set up midrange game, quickness/explosion to attack the basket straight on, catch&shoot/spotup, etc.) means that he draws a great amount of attention here, again, pulling a big away from the restricted area and up to the free throw line.  This is significant because he can spot and capitalize on any off ball movement, use his passing to force rotations until an opportunity is created, play the give and go with a small.  Essentially, there are a ton of options available here due to his gravity and diversity, yet almost none of this will show up in the box-score.  Unless he hits a cutter with a wide open lane or a shooter with a wide open corner, he's not going to be credited with the assist. 

Imagine - he sucks/turns the attention of the defense to himself, a cutter sees an opening and zips in from the wing, which forces a defender from the corner to come over and protect the basket, leaving a shooter open. Garnett hits the cutter who dishes it out, or he kicks the ball out to the perimeter and it is swung around to the open shooter.  Garnett's pressure created the opening, and his passing/vision got the ball where it needed to go, but he's given no credit in the box-score. 

Give and go is another example - at the top of the key, he gets the ball, his man (a big) is now worried about his shot and starts to close in, the lane has one less protector, the PG who just threw it in to him now curls around him with a quick handoff, his defender now runs into Garnett or his man and the PG gets an open lane to the basket.  If someone has rotated over, a shooter will be open, if not, free layup for the PG, or a kick out for a reset for Garnett in the high/mid-block area.  IF it works out that the PG gets an opening up top on the handoff, then he may get a pullup and Garnett is credited with an assist, but in most scenarios, it will play out that again, Garnett gets no box-score credit.

The effect of this play on the offense is resilient, its going to remain present against strong defenses.  It doesn't matter how strong your rotations are or what kind of personnel you have, the key is that adjustments have to be made to combat a talented high-post hub, and when adjustments are made, there is always a cost (which means the defense must yield somewhere) and therein lies the impact.  This is one of the most defense-resistant AND portable offensive skillsets that one can have (you're almost never going to have issue with fit) and its what made Garnett, Walton, 67 Chamberlain, so valuable.

Mid-Post and face-up game are a little more visible in the box-score (similar to PnR).  Mostly comprised of either blowing by the defender and making quick moves to the basket (and draw a foul) or setting up the close-mid-range shot.  This is his isolation offense, something that will tend to suffer against stronger, well equipped defenses that can close off the lane, which sort of strips away the "attack the basket, draw free throws" part and reduces it to just set up mid-range jumpshots.  Garnett's obviously great at these, but taking away the higher-percentage inside shots will hurt his shooting numbers, volume, and FTA bit.  The key then is, how disciplined is the defense.  Yes they can close the paint off, but can they do so without yielding too much somewhere else - was there a missed rotation/help when someone left his man to help cover the paint.  If yes, then there is impact, as there is anytime opportunities are created, if no then its unlikely any opportunity was created and the best option becomes to just shoot a jumper.  This is the other feature of his game that isn't as resilient in the face of smart defenses.

The low-post game is crucial because it provides both a spacing effect and the additional value of his scoring.  While he lacks the upper body strength to consistently finish inside against larger bigs, he can always just shoot over them at a reliable % instead, and against most matchups he's skilled enough back-to-basket and face-up that he can typically get to the rim and score.  Being able to do this means that he draws attention/doubles, and he's one of the best at his position ever at capitalizing by passing out to an open shooter or kicking it out to swing the ball around the perimeter to the open guy (in case the double comes from the opposite corner/baseline) and all of this action tends force rotations enough that you can get some seams for cuts as well.  Outside of scoring or making a direct pass to the open guy, the hockey assists won't show up in the box-score.  But, more importantly, there is a crucial utility in having a guy diverse enough that he can play inside and out equally effectively - lineup diversity.  He fills so many staples of an offense himself that it allows the team to run more specialized lineups/personnel that might not conventionally work, and this forces defenses to adjust (! that's a key word here).  He doesn't have to do anything here that shows up in the box-score, all he needs to do is be on the floor.  You can argue the low-post ability as a 50/50 box-score/non-box-score, but I'd lean towards giving the latter more weight.

Finally screens.  The effect of Garnett's screens is elite, because of his strong lower body base and because of the diversity of his offensive threat (and he just doesn't get called for moving screens).  Its tough for most players to go through/over a Garnett screen, which makes him ideal for setting up jumpers and cutters off the ball.  When he's screening on the ball, everyone involved has to worry about his dual scoring threat, and when that happens, that gives the ball-handler that much more space to work with.  Marginal on a single possession, significant when added up over the course of ~75 possessions, and extremely resilient - how do you stop good screens?  You don't really, you just stay as disciplined as possible.  And this effect is completely absent in the box-score.

So what's important now is to consider the fact that most of Garnett's offense does not show up in the box-score!  And I wouldn't call what he does on the floor the "little things" (this is just something people have been conditioned to say, most things that aren't covered in the box-score have become atypical/unconventional or associated with grit/hustle, despite the fact that these are pretty fundamental basketball actions/skills).  Something like 75-80% of his offensive value just simply isn't tracked by "conventional" recordkeeping, yet the focus with Garnett is almost always on the dip in scoring and efficiency.  So what if the 20% that is tracked has fallen off.  Even if that aspect of his game fell off by 50% (it hasn't), the rest of his game is so fundamentally resilient that I'm not even sure what degree of defense it would take to neutralize it (at least to an effective degree, I'm welcome to explanations), and that still puts him at 80-90% of his max offensive impact (given the increased loads he was typically carrying in the playoffs, I doubt it even went that low).  The generalized argument against him of course tends to be "where are the results", and quite frankly it needs to be hammered home that his Minnesota casts were actually that bad.  Not mid 2000s Kobe/Lebron bad, like REALLY bad, like worst of any top 10 player bad.

^https://forums.realgm.com/boards/viewtopic.php?f=64&t=1587761&p=57014420&hilit=KG#p57014420

●So like I said before, I believe the big ticket has an argument that he added positive value in more different ways than any other player ever, this skillset allowed him to both be one of the best floor-raisers, and one of the best ceiling-raisers of all time as well too, and to me his game has shown to be resilient to the playoffs over a larger postseason sample size(one data point is how is on/ off in the RS from '00 to '12 is +12.4, while it is +17.8 in that same stretch).

●Some of my quick reasons/concerns for not yet listing a few of the closest people I think have arguments yet(again I will go into more detail when I have more time/they are more popular picks). I would still love to hear other thoughts if people disagree with what I have to say ofc

Walton: Mainly durability/sample size related

Magic: I believe Steph is a slightly better defender than Magic was in his actual peak years, with a slight preference in his offense, but those two like everyone else in this tier are basically just picking from preference and in Magic’s prime he has a strong argument for being the most resilient offensive player the game has ever seen.

Bird: Without granular +/- or team info for the playoffs, I’m not entirely sure just how resilient his game was even though it looks like a case of someone being underrated by traditional box score measurements, I also think there's quite a bit of variance on how his defense could be perceived.

Hakeem: I’m really just not very high on Hakeem as an offensive player, his value indicators in the regular season lag behind those players even when in a more optimal situation(from a role standpoint, not a supporting talent one) like the ‘93 to ‘95 Rockets(we don’t have +/- data for 1993 which I think is his peak but his ‘94 and ‘95 indicators don’t seem game-breaking or anything to me like the other players I named even if they are still all-time great. He also he never really played on a great team or gave me much reason to believe his offense would scale too well looking at the situations where he did have a bit more talent in his career, his versatility pops out to me as being severely overrated. He does definitely seem like a playoff riser offensively, but I also think his defense is a step down from his defensive peak - I believe similar-ish in value to peak KG, Duncan, and Wilt in those years, and the Rockets feel like a really high variance team with their advanced outside shooting which I believe helped them overrperform. I can’t see a strong argument at all for him being the best offensive player ITW in any of his seasons with his passing and optimal decision-making issues, and it's hard for me to see him really toning down his detrimental tendencies to play a role more within the flow of a cohesive offesive attack because to me the willingness(which did improve throughout his career), still just wasn't really there consistently.

Tim: I don’t really like him as much as I do KG on either end but it’s basically splitting hairs again. His RS signals aren’t quite as strong as the other names I gave from the pbp era and I think it’s a little strange how much of a stark contrast his playoffs +/- data looks from that special peak from ‘01 - ‘03 have to the rest of his career, his value may be inflated by the situation?? I think his scalability is a bit underrated because people overlook 2005 for whatever reason but it’s just a bit shakier for me compared to the other people I’m voting for this round.

Jokic: Concerns about his defense in a playoff setting. Alot of the metrics favoring his regular seasons turn their backs in the PS, the Nuggets DRTG with him on is porous, and there is reason to believe his impact does not translate 1:1(things like defense, teams selling out to limit his playmaking value albeit allowing him to score more so their offense isn't as effective)


1. 1962 Bill Russell
(1964, 1963, 1965)
-I think of his defense is being probably just as valuable as Steph's offense(and maybe even more portable), but his offense being better than Steph's defense and compared to everyone else I think he has maybe the best proof of his impact across different circumstances/seasons/rosters alongside Steph/KG but his impact indicators look even more impressive to me when looking at era point differentials as that level of team separation(more specifically the Celtics defense he anchored) was even more impacful back then. Honestly I may have been convinced after looking at the Shaq discussion to just put Russell over him(Shaq was my #3 and Russell my #4)
2. 2017 Stephen Curry
(2016)
-When push comes to shove I feel Steph has a slightly more impressive statistical footprint and argument for the playoffs than KG, without the 2021 regular season where I was quite impressed with what Steph did in that circumstance as a floor raiser when they moved off Wiseman I might've went KG over him here
3. 2004 Kevin Garnett
(2003)
AEnigma wrote:Arf arf.
Image

trex_8063 wrote:Calling someone a stinky turd is not acceptable.
PLEASE stop doing that.

One_and_Done wrote:I mean, how would you feel if the NBA traced it's origins to an 1821 league of 3 foot dwarves who performed in circuses?
Blazers-1977
Veteran
Posts: 2,687
And1: 643
Joined: Aug 19, 2015
   

Re: RealGM Greatest Peaks Project (2022): #7 

Post#97 » by Blazers-1977 » Sun Jul 10, 2022 2:47 am

1. 1964-65 Russell: Was the best version of an 11 time champion , was a monster on defense(14.4 WS on defense) and while it was close between his 1964 and 1965 season his advanced stats were slightly better in 65 for the playoffs(per 48 min).

2. 1985-86 Bird: Led the Celtics to the best home record in history, was a great all around player average 25/9/7 and was arguably the best version of him defensively as well.

3. 1993-94 Hakeem: Won MVP/Finals MVP/Defensive Player of the year in the same season, was unstoppable on offense and arguably had the worst supporting cast to win a title in modern history.
70sFan
RealGM
Posts: 29,599
And1: 24,915
Joined: Aug 11, 2015
 

Re: RealGM Greatest Peaks Project (2022): #7 

Post#98 » by 70sFan » Sun Jul 10, 2022 5:46 am

Doctor MJ wrote:
70sFan wrote:I will focus this time on why I decided to go with 1993 Hakeem over 1994 version. To make it short - it's because Hakeem was considerably more active defensively in 1993. By my tracking sample, here are the number of high quality contests per game for 1992/93 vs 1993/94:

1992/93 (11 games): 9.5 high quality contests per game, 2.2 weak contests per game
1993/94 (24 games): 6.8 high quality contests per game, 2.5 weak contests per game

Hakeem was clearly more engaged on defensive end when he was younger and although some people might call him too agressive as a rim protector, he didn't average that many fouls in 1993 (same as in 1994 in RS and less in the playoffs).

Another thing is that Hakeem was more willing to go out on perimeter chasing guards on P&Rs in 1993. In 1994 playoffs, he often struggled to defend P&Rs in space and started playing drop coverage more (which he wasn't great at). Here is my post from a different thread talking about it with some examples:


I like seeing this data. Do you have more along these lines you have shared or are able to share? Thanks!

I will post more at some point when I finish it, but it's time consuming unfortunately and I have less and less time to work on that project. I hope to finish at least 10 best centers peaks, though my main aim was to do top 15.
Dutchball97
Lead Assistant
Posts: 5,406
And1: 5,001
Joined: Mar 28, 2020
   

Re: RealGM Greatest Peaks Project (2022): #7 

Post#99 » by Dutchball97 » Sun Jul 10, 2022 6:18 am

DraymondGold wrote:Hi y'all! I think we rate Curry vs the competition a bit differently, and I haven't seen your replies to any of the arguments in favor of Curry yet, so I thought I might start a discussion to understand your perspective better. (apologies if you have and I just missed it!)

To me, there's been some pretty convincing arguments for Curry over this competition (though I am biased since I'm one of the ones making the arguments :lol: ). For example, people have shown he has a favorable case over Hakeem by the impact stats, by a skill comparison (e.g. comparing scoring vs playmaking vs defense), by in-depth film analysis, and by qualitative analysis (e.g. using scalability arguments, time-machine arguments, etc.)

Is there any reason why you're rating Curry lower? Is there anything in those arguments do you don't find convincing? Feel free to raise any points in favor of other players too if you think I'm underrating them :)


Curry doesn't really have a runaway peak year. I'm probably going for 2017 but his regular season wasn't as impressive to me as other contenders around this range and I can't say his post-season really swings me around on that with how unbelievably stacked the Warriors were. Then you've got an arguable GOAT regular season in 2016 that ended in a whimper in the play-offs or a well rounded 2015 season that overall just lacks behind the likes of Hakeem, Russell, Bird and Magic for me personally.

I'm also a bit worried you might be comparing these different eras a bit too much as if they're the same. Being a +5 in anything in 1960, 1990 or 2020 doesn't always mean the exact same thing. These impact stat comparisons become very flimsy the moment we go back to the early-mid 90s already and become pretty much obsolote in my eyes pre-1974.

As to skill comparisons, I can't say I consider that at all. Comparing a guard and a big with very different roles and skillsets isn't that productive. We're going to see huge gaps that are expected but what can you tell from that? I like to eliminate the noise and just look at total impact, no matter how they get it. Be it scoring, playmaking, defense or shouting at teammates.

I do use some qualitative arguments but I purely look at how well did a player do within a season and not at how well would they do in other eras. Even then how does Curry have an edge in scalability/time machine stuff? Hakeem's skillset would translate about as well as anyone in league history. He'd fit in just fine in the 60s or the modern game, where Steph gradually loses impact the farther back you go. Besides that we've seen Hakeem carry a solid at best supporting cast to a title, while Curry has gotten increasingly more help nearly every year of his prime. I'm not sure any other superstar in the modern era has had to carry as little of a load as Curry. I'm not comfortable projecting Curry carrying a team to a title without the help he's gotten especially since we've seen him fail to even drag his team to the play-offs when the other stars are out.
falcolombardi
General Manager
Posts: 9,264
And1: 6,851
Joined: Apr 13, 2021
       

Re: RealGM Greatest Peaks Project (2022): #7 

Post#100 » by falcolombardi » Sun Jul 10, 2022 7:15 am

Dutchball97 wrote:
DraymondGold wrote:Hi y'all! I think we rate Curry vs the competition a bit differently, and I haven't seen your replies to any of the arguments in favor of Curry yet, so I thought I might start a discussion to understand your perspective better. (apologies if you have and I just missed it!)

To me, there's been some pretty convincing arguments for Curry over this competition (though I am biased since I'm one of the ones making the arguments :lol: ). For example, people have shown he has a favorable case over Hakeem by the impact stats, by a skill comparison (e.g. comparing scoring vs playmaking vs defense), by in-depth film analysis, and by qualitative analysis (e.g. using scalability arguments, time-machine arguments, etc.)

Is there any reason why you're rating Curry lower? Is there anything in those arguments do you don't find convincing? Feel free to raise any points in favor of other players too if you think I'm underrating them :)


Curry doesn't really have a runaway peak year. I'm probably going for 2017 but his regular season wasn't as impressive to me as other contenders around this range and I can't say his post-season really swings me around on that with how unbelievably stacked the Warriors were. Then you've got an arguable GOAT regular season in 2016 that ended in a whimper in the play-offs or a well rounded 2015 season that overall just lacks behind the likes of Hakeem, Russell, Bird and Magic for me personally.

I'm also a bit worried you might be comparing these different eras a bit too much as if they're the same. Being a +5 in anything in 1960, 1990 or 2020 doesn't always mean the exact same thing. These impact stat comparisons become very flimsy the moment we go back to the early-mid 90s already and become pretty much obsolote in my eyes pre-1974.

As to skill comparisons, I can't say I consider that at all. Comparing a guard and a big with very different roles and skillsets isn't that productive. We're going to see huge gaps that are expected but what can you tell from that? I like to eliminate the noise and just look at total impact, no matter how they get it. Be it scoring, playmaking, defense or shouting at teammates.

I do use some qualitative arguments but I purely look at how well did a player do within a season and not at how well would they do in other eras. Even then how does Curry have an edge in scalability/time machine stuff? Hakeem's skillset would translate about as well as anyone in league history. He'd fit in just fine in the 60s or the modern game, where Steph gradually loses impact the farther back you go. Besides that we've seen Hakeem carry a solid at best supporting cast to a title, while Curry has gotten increasingly more help nearly every year of his prime. I'm not sure any other superstar in the modern era has had to carry as little of a load as Curry. I'm not comfortable projecting Curry carrying a team to a title without the help he's gotten especially since we've seen him fail to even drag his team to the play-offs when the other stars are out.


As much as i often push back on curry in this board i think 2022 disproves the point of curry only winning with overwhelming help (2015 has the injury luck argument against it to a degree)

The 2022 warriors have more ralent thab the 94 rockets but they are not "overwhelming"

Return to Player Comparisons