Closer to HoF: Kyrie vs Butler

[iggymcfrack]

You say Kyrie is lucky to play with Lebron. Why? Kyrie doesn't get any credit for his contributions. You just compare him to Robert Horry despite the fact he averaged 29ppg and got most of those points on his own. Also, the very next year he left Cleveland Kyrie had the best team in the east and was on his way to the Finals had he not gotten injured. So Kyrie doesn't need Lebron to get to the finals.

This is one more point I want to address. You say LeBron's so lucky to play with Kyrie because he hit one shot that might cause 5% more of people to think Bron's the GOAT. He still has 3 rings without Kyrie though and would be at worst thought of as the second best player of all-time. Maybe he still even gets a ring in 2015 if the Cavs fill that cap space with a guard that can stay healthy. Now ask yourself, where's Kyrie without LeBron?

-Couldn't make the playoffs in 3 years in Cleveland.

-Sabotaged a contender in Boston. The team played better when he didn't suit up and he turned most of the team against him with his antics.

-Blew up a superteam in Brooklyn. The team played better when he didn't suit up and he pissed off the players around him so much that the other stars ended up demanding trades.

Without that one ring where he played 3 good games after riding LeBron's coattails all season, Kyrie's likely thought of as a worse version of Stephon Marbury. He might have to be signing like 1 year, $5MM deals just to get a roster spot. He certainly wouldn't be whining about not getting a max extension. It's no wonder that Kyrie's begging to go back to Bron to make him relevant again.

[ardee]

Kyrie is already a lock. Jimmy has a ways to go. Kyrie is a NBA champion and a 3x Conf. Champion. I don't think that's getting enough attention. Jimmy has never really been viewed as more than a solid and consistent all star. Kyrie has been viewed as legit superstar and difference maker for a franchise. He's played much more meaningful basketball than Jimmy over the course of their careers.

I think Kyrie getting injured that 1st year in Boston really robbed him of an opportunity to cement his legacy as an all time great. People forget that he did excellent with Boston as a leader and superstar player that first year. He led them to a #1 seed and helped foster a championship atmosphere around that team. And considering they took the Cavs 7 games that year you have to think if Kyrie played they would have won that series and made it to the finals. I think had he not been injured and led the Celtics passed Lebron to the Finals we would be looking at Kyrie with whole a different level of respect.

Dude... Jimmy has absolutely been the difference maker for multiple franchises now.

He went to the Wolves, immediately became the best player and led them to their first Playoffs in over a decade.

He went to the Sixers, brought them to within a buzzer beater of beating the eventual champions, and since he left the team has never been nearly as good.

He went to the Heat, they made the Finals and he went mano-e-mano with LeBron and had two of the best Finals games of all time. Then he had another epic Playoff run this year and would've made the Finals again if not for his injury.

Butler has actually DONE the things you say Kyrie could've done in 2018 had he not gotten injured.

I actually do think Kyrie might be more naturally talented than Jimmy but after 2018 his career has stagnated heavily, especially the last 3 years. He has an opportunity to turn it around, he's still only 29 and in an era where people can stay elite till their mid 30s, but as of now Butler is the guy who has actually made stuff happen for teams, Kyrie's biggest moment happened because he was lucky enough to play with the GOAT.

Lebron is lucky he had a teammate putting up 29ppg and hitting game winning shots. Imagine if MJ had that. Kyrie was putting 40pt games in the finals. The narrative that Kyrie was lucky as opposed to Lebron is just more revisionist history by a community that does nothing but revise history. Also, 2020 wasn't a real playoffs.

But fair enough. Perhaps I was underrating Jimmy at the time. I'll concede that point.

This is almost sig worthy. Pippen is 10x the player Kyrie ever was.

[Stalwart]

Dude... Jimmy has absolutely been the difference maker for multiple franchises now.

He went to the Wolves, immediately became the best player and led them to their first Playoffs in over a decade.

He went to the Sixers, brought them to within a buzzer beater of beating the eventual champions, and since he left the team has never been nearly as good.

He went to the Heat, they made the Finals and he went mano-e-mano with LeBron and had two of the best Finals games of all time. Then he had another epic Playoff run this year and would've made the Finals again if not for his injury.

Butler has actually DONE the things you say Kyrie could've done in 2018 had he not gotten injured.

I actually do think Kyrie might be more naturally talented than Jimmy but after 2018 his career has stagnated heavily, especially the last 3 years. He has an opportunity to turn it around, he's still only 29 and in an era where people can stay elite till their mid 30s, but as of now Butler is the guy who has actually made stuff happen for teams, Kyrie's biggest moment happened because he was lucky enough to play with the GOAT.

Lebron is lucky he had a teammate putting up 29ppg and hitting game winning shots. Imagine if MJ had that. Kyrie was putting 40pt games in the finals. The narrative that Kyrie was lucky as opposed to Lebron is just more revisionist history by a community that does nothing but revise history. Also, 2020 wasn't a real playoffs.

But fair enough. Perhaps I was underrating Jimmy at the time. I'll concede that point.

This is almost sig worthy. Pippen is 10x the player Kyrie ever was.

Yes because Kyrie is really just a glorified Robert Horry, am I right? Whatever you say...

[JordansBulls]

Kyrie he was probably closer to make the top 75 than Butler was

[ardee]

Lebron is lucky he had a teammate putting up 29ppg and hitting game winning shots. Imagine if MJ had that. Kyrie was putting 40pt games in the finals. The narrative that Kyrie was lucky as opposed to Lebron is just more revisionist history by a community that does nothing but revise history. Also, 2020 wasn't a real playoffs.

But fair enough. Perhaps I was underrating Jimmy at the time. I'll concede that point.

This is almost sig worthy. Pippen is 10x the player Kyrie ever was.

Yes because Kyrie is really just a glorified Robert Horry, am I right? Whatever you say...

Kyrie is a fine player but he's not even close to what Pippen was. In 1994 after MJ retired Pippen finished 3rd in MVP voting ahead of the likes of Shaq, Karl Malone and Patrick Ewing. He's arguably the greatest defensive perimeter player of all time while also being a damn good offensive player. Top 30 all time.

Kyrie might be top 100, but I'm not even sure about that. He has the ability but very rarely has he put it all together for long enough stretches. If he didn't play with LeBron he'd likely have a career similar to Steve Francis or Stephon Marbury.

[Ginoboleee]

Kyrie he was probably closer to make the top 75 than Butler was

In Slam's version, Kyrie was #65.
That was his only appearance in 5 notable published aggregated Top 75 lists that I then compiled.
Butler was not listed in any of them.
90 players appeared on at least one of those lists.
My results from the compilation have Kyrie at #87, just ahead of Klay.

[Cavsfansince84]

I voted Butler but both is probably the better answer. The real kicker to me is that Kyrie despite playing on good to great teams has never really been a legitimate mvp candidate(never even top 15) while Butler has not only done that but led a team to a finals and had one of the atg finals in a losing effort. Jimmy just has proven himself more as a #1 guy and is a better all around player.

[iggymcfrack]

This is almost sig worthy. Pippen is 10x the player Kyrie ever was.

Yes because Kyrie is really just a glorified Robert Horry, am I right? Whatever you say...

Kyrie is a fine player but he's not even close to what Pippen was. In 1994 after MJ retired Pippen finished 3rd in MVP voting ahead of the likes of Shaq, Karl Malone and Patrick Ewing. He's arguably the greatest defensive perimeter player of all time while also being a damn good offensive player. Top 30 all time.

Kyrie might be top 100, but I'm not even sure about that. He has the ability but very rarely has he put it all together for long enough stretches. If he didn't play with LeBron he'd likely have a career similar to Steve Francis or Stephon Marbury.

Maybe top 100 since he entered the league. All time? Not even close.

[ardee]

Yes because Kyrie is really just a glorified Robert Horry, am I right? Whatever you say...

Kyrie is a fine player but he's not even close to what Pippen was. In 1994 after MJ retired Pippen finished 3rd in MVP voting ahead of the likes of Shaq, Karl Malone and Patrick Ewing. He's arguably the greatest defensive perimeter player of all time while also being a damn good offensive player. Top 30 all time.

Kyrie might be top 100, but I'm not even sure about that. He has the ability but very rarely has he put it all together for long enough stretches. If he didn't play with LeBron he'd likely have a career similar to Steve Francis or Stephon Marbury.

Maybe top 100 since he entered the league. All time? Not even close.

Carmelo Anthony was 92nd in the last top 100 project. I think Kyrie is a similar level player.

[Purch]

No offense to Butler, but Kyrie is generational. There's not a single thing Butler does which he was the best at in the league.

Kyire on the other hand has blown up 3 contending cores in about a six year time frame. The man is a generational chemistry killer, and deserves to be honored for it.