Dirk Garnett vs peak LeBron

[rand]

Dirk Garnett has peak KG's athleticism, defensive ability and passing combined with peak Dirk's scoring ability.

Is Dirk Garnett better than peak LeBron?

[frica]

I think in most cases combining two guys in the top 30 is an automatic GOAT.

This isn't any different.

[Ryoga Hibiki]

Dirk Garnett would be very obviously the GOAT

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[LAL1947]

I think this hypothetical player needs to have two first names, like Kevin Dirk, as that sounds more dangerous and mysterious... and then it's a slam dunk win for him in this poll.

[Dutchball97]

I think this hypothetical player needs to have two first names, like Kevin Dirk as that sounds more dangerous... and then it's a slam dunk win for him in this poll.

You're right. Nobody would be even talking about Michael Jordan or Bill Russell if they didn't have two first names.

[LAL1947]

I think this hypothetical player needs to have two first names, like Kevin Dirk as that sounds more dangerous... and then it's a slam dunk win for him in this poll.

You're right. Nobody would be even talking about Michael Jordan or Bill Russell if they didn't have two first names.

Well, think about it. Lew, Alcindor (variation of Alexander), Kareem, Abdul and Jabbar are all first names as well. So Reggie James might have had a better shot at being GOAT than Lebron James too.

Btw, I bet you voted for Lebron, even though Kevin Dirk is the better player.

[NbaAllDay]

I actually think Lebron. Is KGs Defensive gap at his peak and Lebrons peak larger than Lebrons gap on Dirk for offense peak for peak?

I think Lebron has a bigger offensive peak gap over Dirk than defensively with Garnett.

Lebron at his peak defensively still isn't obviously as good as KG but it's legit DPOY level.

IF the attributes used combined with Dirk (athleticism/passing) made Dirk a better O player then sure it's likely to be more interesting but it would have to be at least a tier level improvement.

[Dutchball97]

I think this hypothetical player needs to have two first names, like Kevin Dirk as that sounds more dangerous... and then it's a slam dunk win for him in this poll.

You're right. Nobody would be even talking about Michael Jordan or Bill Russell if they didn't have two first names.

Well, think about it. Lew, Alcindor (variation of Alexander), Kareem, Abdul and Jabbar are all first names as well. So Reggie James might have had a better shot at being GOAT than Lebron James too.

Btw, I bet you voted for Lebron, even though Kevin Dirk is the better player.

Then you'd lose your bet because I didn't vote.

[uberhikari]

Maybe, but probably not. LeBron is still a better offensive player than Dirk Garnett by a tier. And LeBron was actually an all-time defender at his peak. So, no.

[No-more-rings]

Forget about defense, that player would arguably be a better offensive player. Dirk with KG’s offensive rebounding, passing and screen setting is arguably a better offensive player.

[No-more-rings]

Maybe, but probably not. LeBron is still a better offensive player than Dirk Garnett by a tier. And LeBron was actually an all-time defender at his peak. So, no.

Garnett’s defensive peak is arguably 2nd all time, the defense gap would be larger.

[DraymondGold]

Great question! KG and Dirk fit pretty perfectly together as a hybrid, with both covering up the weaknesses of the other. I'm a bit surprised by the "LeBron is an all-time defender" claims. He's definitely an all-time defender at his position, but being an all-time defender at your position =/= being an all-time defender at all positions.

KG's clearly the best defender of the group, and a top 5 defender all time. He's like Draymond on steroids -- a great man defender, GOAT-level defensive leadership and communication, GOAT-level interior help rotations, GOAT-level pick/roll defense and perimeter defense among big men, etc. And if he played in today's era, his defensive versatility would be even more valuable. LeBron's a great defender, but he's pretty clearly not even in the top 20 all time unless we're majorly curving him up with some argument about value relative to position. Unlike so many two-way all time players, KG also had one of the best motors in history, so it's realistic for him to bring this peak defensive value at the same time he brought his offensive value. Compare that to LeBron, who had serious coasting problems on defense as he got older...

On offense, peak Dirk is in the same tier as peak LeBron as a scorer. 2009-2011 Dirk scored 30 PPG at +10% rTS, compared to 2012-2014 Lebron James who scored 30.5 PPG at +10% rTS. LeBron might have better scoring longevity, but Dirk-KG would have a more scalable form of scoring, being able to do it both on ball and off ball. In today's era, their 3 point shooting would clearly be above LeBron's, and it would have secondary benefits coming from a stretch big who could take a rim protector out of the paint. Dirk's greatest offensive weakness was his passing and IQ, but Garnett would be a massive help here, turning Dirk into an All-time passer among big men (though a level below Jokic who's probably the GOAT big man passer). Both also improve in the little things, e.g in their offensive communication and their screening.

It's also not as if LeBron would have much of a longevity advantage that he would have against almost anyone else. Dirk and KG both played 21 seasons, and by combining them it's realistic to expect their play in their younger and older seasons would improve.

Anyway, I tend to be quite high on player-hybrids, particularly if you're combing all of the best traits of both players (rather than just the offense of one and the defense of another). I definitely don't mean any shade to LeBron by ranking him lower -- I just think a Dirk Garnett hybrid would be pretty dang good!

[capfan33]

Never really got the point of these comparisons, if you combine the best attributes of 2 ATG players, especially one's that complement each other perfectly, the resulting player is usually going to be the GOAT by a margin. This case is no different.

[homecourtloss]

It’s likely for career value, though James peaks higher on offense than either. It’s interesting to note that for playoff peaks, James’s offense is far ahead of either Dirk’s or KG’s and his defense peaked at big man impact levels. The hybrid hypotheticals are interesting to imagine but the crazy thing is you actually have a theoretical hybrid happen in reality.

[falcolombardi]

Forget about defense, that player would arguably be a better offensive player. Dirk with KG’s offensive rebounding, passing and screen setting is arguably a better offensive player.

Dirk offensive game doesnt lend itself to a ton of offensive rebounding

[uberhikari]

Maybe, but probably not. LeBron is still a better offensive player than Dirk Garnett by a tier. And LeBron was actually an all-time defender at his peak. So, no.

Garnett’s defensive peak is arguably 2nd all time, the defense gap would be larger.

There's no argument for KG being the 2nd best defender of all time. That's Hakeem. I'm not even sure KG was a better defender than Duncan, but I can see an argument.

Moreover, offense and defense are not equally important. Offense is clearly more important than defense. And in this case LeBron is clearly a tier above on offense than a KG/Dirk hybrid. The defensive gap may be bigger but the offensive gap is much more important. Now if LeBron was a Larry Bird-level defender, I'd take the KG/Dirk hybrid but he's not.

[No-more-rings]

Maybe, but probably not. LeBron is still a better offensive player than Dirk Garnett by a tier. And LeBron was actually an all-time defender at his peak. So, no.

Garnett’s defensive peak is arguably 2nd all time, the defense gap would be larger.

There's no argument for KG being the 2nd best defender of all time. That's Hakeem. I'm not even sure KG was a better defender than Duncan, but I can see an argument.

Moreover, offense and defense are not equally important. Offense is clearly more important than defense. And in this case LeBron is clearly a tier above on offense than a KG/Dirk hybrid. The defensive gap may be bigger but the offensive gap is much more important. Now if LeBron was a Larry Bird-level defender, I'd take the KG/Dirk hybrid but he's not.

I don’t think KG is better than Hakeem, but for peak his defense has a case sure why not?

I don’t know why though you think Lebron is a full tier better on offense. Dirk is arguably a top 10 offensive player ever, you give him another inch with Kg’s athleticism and passing I don’t see how Lebron is clearly a full tier better than that. That would be a really scary player. One other thing, are you assuming Lebron peaked on o and d in the same year? When Lebron peaked on offense he wasn’t even close to his d peak unless you think 09 was the year.

[Jaivl]

Lebron at his peak defensively still isn't obviously as good as KG but it's legit DPOY level.

No. In contention for DPOY in an extremely weak year =/= "DPOY level".

Garnett’s defensive peak is arguably 2nd all time, the defense gap would be larger.

Now if LeBron was a Larry Bird-level defender, I'd take the KG/Dirk hybrid but he's not.

If peak LeBron (not peak offense LeBron) was a Larry Bird-level defender I would take KG alone over him.

[uberhikari]

Garnett’s defensive peak is arguably 2nd all time, the defense gap would be larger.

There's no argument for KG being the 2nd best defender of all time. That's Hakeem. I'm not even sure KG was a better defender than Duncan, but I can see an argument.

Moreover, offense and defense are not equally important. Offense is clearly more important than defense. And in this case LeBron is clearly a tier above on offense than a KG/Dirk hybrid. The defensive gap may be bigger but the offensive gap is much more important. Now if LeBron was a Larry Bird-level defender, I'd take the KG/Dirk hybrid but he's not.

I don’t think KG is better than Hakeem, but for peak his defense has a case sure why not?

I don’t know why though you think Lebron is a full tier better on offense. Dirk is arguably a top 10 offensive player ever, you give him another inch with Kg’s athleticism and passing I don’t see how Lebron is clearly a full tier better than that. That would be a really scary player. One other thing, are you assuming Lebron peaked on o and d in the same year? When Lebron peaked on offense he wasn’t even close to his d peak unless you think 09 was the year.

Hakeem could do everything KG could do on defense, except Hakeem was a way better paint defender/rim protector. Heck, Hakeem even had better hands than KG as evidenced not just by his number of steals but by the sheer amount of deflections he caused. There is no case for KG being a better defender than Hakeem.

LeBron by himself was a better scorer than Dirk, and KG was a worse scorer than both. And Lebron was a better passer than KG, and Dirk was a worse passer than both. LeBron as a passer is several tiers of KG. So combining both Dirk/KG gives them no offensive advantage over LeBron. Dirk/KG becomes more athletic but so what? Being athletic is not an offensive skill.

Dirk might be a top 10 offensive player but the difference between 1 and 5 on the list is massive. Do you think Dirk and MJ are in the same tier on offense? Because LeBron is much closer to MJ on offense than Dirk is to MJ. To me, that's a full tier better.

I don't think a Dirk/KG hybrid would be better than 09 LeBron, '10 LeBron, '13 LeBron, or '16 LeBron. Those are usually considered LeBron's peak years. So whichever one you choose LeBron was still better.

[Jaivl]

Hakeem could do everything KG could do on defense, except Hakeem was a way better paint defender/rim protector. Heck, Hakeem even had better hands than KG as evidenced not just by his number of steals but by the sheer amount of deflections he caused. There is no case for KG being a better defender than Hakeem.

Agree Hakeem was a more valuable defender overall due to era + clearly superior rim protection, but Garnett was absolutely better at some things, like positioning (KG is probably the GOAT there), and motor (again, probably the GOAT).