Why BALL HOGS never win a chamionchip?

[Raps in 4]

I leave here % of FG Ast'd per PO career for TOP perimeter players. You can draw your own conclusions.

1. Paul .135
2. Doncic .135
3. Nash .204
4. Westbrook .213
5. Harden .229

6. Wade .291
7. Lebron .326
8. Kobe .349
9. Curry .409
10. Kidd .447

This doesn't show what you think it shows. Of course pass-first PGs will have less of their shots assisted. They initiate the offence.

It shows exactly what I think. Whole offence goes through these players only to one direction. There is no feedback in these situations.

If that's what you think it shows, then you're interpreting the data incorrectly.

Let's have a look at their assist rates:

1. Paul .453
2. Doncic .417
3. Nash .415
4. Westbrook .419
5. Harden .334 (.427 since he started playing PG full-time in 2016-17)

6. Wade .304
7. Lebron .364
8. Kobe .242
9. Curry .314
10. Kidd .385

So who's really the "ballhog"? A good passer won't get the ball back because they would have created a quality scoring opportunity for the teammate they passed to.

[Ein Sof]

This doesn't show what you think it shows. Of course pass-first PGs will have less of their shots assisted. They initiate the offence.

It shows exactly what I think. Whole offence goes through these players only to one direction. There is no feedback in these situations.

If that's what you think it shows, then you're interpreting the data incorrectly.

Let's have a look at their assist rates:

1. Paul .453
2. Doncic .417
3. Nash .415
4. Westbrook .419
5. Harden .334 (.427 since he started playing PG full-time in 2016-17)

6. Wade .304
7. Lebron .364
8. Kobe .242
9. Curry .314
10. Kidd .385

So who's really the "ballhog"?

Klay has an 11% career assist percentage. What a selfish POS.

[dk1115]

I think %assisted FG is a better measurement of ball dominance than assist rate, but obviously both have some flaws

Who would even call Chris Paul and Steve Nash a ball hog? They look to pass first.

Steph Curry who has one of the lower assist rates of the group just pretty much never has the ball unless he's shooting.



Watching Westbrook though.... oh man... James Harden with the Rockets... zzz

[turnaroundJ]

it probably just means that being dependent on a star player who pounds the ball so much isn't historically a wining recipe. which seems to be right. unless you have lebron james on a stacked team.

[Raps in 4]

I think %assisted FG is a better measurement of ball dominance than assist rate

The two stats are inversely related. The higher your assist rate, the lower your assisted FG% will be. All these stats show is that a player is a PG.

[Doranku]

What this really shows is that a team rarely wins a championship when their PG is the best player. Only the GOAT playmaker, the GOAT shooter, and Isiah Thomas were able to accomplish it... which leads me to believe Isiah is a bit disrespected overall. Any members who regularly saw him play care to offer their opinion on IT?

[SpreeS]

This doesn't show what you think it shows. Of course pass-first PGs will have less of their shots assisted. They initiate the offence.

It shows exactly what I think. Whole offence goes through these players only to one direction. There is no feedback in these situations.

If that's what you think it shows, then you're interpreting the data incorrectly.

Let's have a look at their assist rates:

1. Paul .453
2. Doncic .417
3. Nash .415
4. Westbrook .419
5. Harden .334 (.427 since he started playing PG full-time in 2016-17)

6. Wade .304
7. Lebron .364
8. Kobe .242
9. Curry .314
10. Kidd .385

So who's really the "ballhog"? A good passer won't get the ball back because they would have created a quality scoring opportunity for the teammate they passed to.

AST% is very good stats to show how these monopolize the entire offence with ball in hand for 8/10s per poss, 20 FGA and 5 TOV.

[SpreeS]

I think %assisted FG is a better measurement of ball dominance than assist rate

The two stats are inversely related. The higher your assist rate, the lower your assisted FG% will be. All these stats show is that a player is a PG.

Not for all

AST% .4+ Ast'd 0.35+

Stockton
D.Williams
Kidd
Lebron

[Yeggo Poleggo]

Kobe won 5 of them as a ball hog. He was an elite passer when he wanted to be or an elite ISO scorer when he wanted to be, but rarely ever balanced both

This is why he only won 5 and not 10, correct?

[og15]

OP you don’t understand what you are citing

[JHFVF07]

I disagree with the list, but I think its really hard to win when your best player needs the ball on his hands ALL THE TIME(LeBron, Doncic, Trae, WB, Harden)...you must be a transcendental player to win a lot of tittles this way(LeBron). Kobe shooted a lot, but his Lakers team had good ball moviment and he was a treat playing offball.

Doncic is young and in his early career he already showed he can play offball when needed (Madrid and Slovenia), I hope he doesnt got too in love with his numbers, and can adapt his game to contribute more when he doesnt have the ball on his hands, well, If Mavs someday/someway land another ALL star.

If you want to win tittles you need more than one player able to create on the offensive end.

[cupcakesnake]

I think there is an interesting point of discussion in here but OP wrote an inflammatory title that is distracting from his main point (while it's kind of hilarious to some of the best passers of all-time "BALL HOGS", sorry Spree, you can see by the reaction that everyone is responding to that rather than what you're trying to show with the numbers).

So you are pointing out that a list of 1-way playmaker who only act as generators of assists for others, and rarely ever finishers of assists by their teammates have failed to win a championship. These guys were only finishing off assists from others 20% of the time or less. Meanwhile, a list of championship winners who all were finishers 30% of the time or more, have accumulated 17 championships. I think it's actually a good point than less helioccentric offenses are more resilient. I use this Kobe example all the time: everyone remembers Kobe battling in ISO for ridiculous fadeaway (while ignoring his teammates) but people less often think of Kobe the off-ball mover, who got a ton of buckets in the triangle, driving baseline into a pindown for a quick catch & shooter midranger. It was the bread and butter of Kobe's scoring but it wasn't as heroic or sexy as his tough iso/post up shotmaking. I've always thought it was the secret to Kobe's success and the main ingredient that balanced out his scoring package. When the playmaking only moves in 1 direction, it's easier for the defense to key on. It's what's made Steph Curry offenses impossible to guard. It's what made Reggie Miller one of the most resilient and efficient playoff scorers ever. If you don't have the personnel on your team to have a second playmaking hub (Kobe with Shaq or Pau/Odom, Lebron with Wade/Kyrie, Curry with Draymond), it leaves a part of your offense unweaponized.

Spree, could you explain how you pulled this data. I know bball ref has assisted 2P and 3P but where are you pulling the total number from? Or how are you calculating it? I wanted to see how your idea worked on some other players.

[cupcakesnake]

Basically the title "Why BALL HOGS never win a championchip?"
really means "Why players who don't receive assists from their teammates in their teams' system never win championships?"

[Statlanta]

We need more data like time of possession and touches or even film to have a better conversation about this topic.

[SpreeS]

I think there is an interesting point of discussion in here but OP wrote an inflammatory title that is distracting from his main point (while it's kind of hilarious to some of the best passers of all-time "BALL HOGS", sorry Spree, you can see by the reaction that everyone is responding to that rather than what you're trying to show with the numbers).

So you are pointing out that a list of 1-way playmaker who only act as generators of assists for others, and rarely ever finishers of assists by their teammates have failed to win a championship. These guys were only finishing off assists from others 20% of the time or less. Meanwhile, a list of championship winners who all were finishers 30% of the time or more, have accumulated 17 championships. I think it's actually a good point than less helioccentric offenses are more resilient. I use this Kobe example all the time: everyone remembers Kobe battling in ISO for ridiculous fadeaway (while ignoring his teammates) but people less often think of Kobe the off-ball mover, who got a ton of buckets in the triangle, driving baseline into a pindown for a quick catch & shooter midranger. It was the bread and butter of Kobe's scoring but it wasn't as heroic or sexy as his tough iso/post up shotmaking. I've always thought it was the secret to Kobe's success and the main ingredient that balanced out his scoring package. When the playmaking only moves in 1 direction, it's easier for the defense to key on. It's what's made Steph Curry offenses impossible to guard. It's what made Reggie Miller one of the most resilient and efficient playoff scorers ever. If you don't have the personnel on your team to have a second playmaking hub (Kobe with Shaq or Pau/Odom, Lebron with Wade/Kyrie, Curry with Draymond), it leaves a part of your offense unweaponized.

Spree, could you explain how you pulled this data. I know bball ref has assisted 2P and 3P but where are you pulling the total number from? Or how are you calculating it? I wanted to see how your idea worked on some other players.

You have all data what you need (PO total 2P and 3P, Ast'd 2P% and 3P%).The rest is simple Math...Ok I agree about "ball hog" meaning, there are a lot of fans who reacts a lot to it. Yea, but I call these players exactly like that...

[scrabbarista]

I think there is an interesting point of discussion in here but OP wrote an inflammatory title that is distracting from his main point (while it's kind of hilarious to some of the best passers of all-time "BALL HOGS", sorry Spree, you can see by the reaction that everyone is responding to that rather than what you're trying to show with the numbers).

So you are pointing out that a list of 1-way playmaker who only act as generators of assists for others, and rarely ever finishers of assists by their teammates have failed to win a championship. These guys were only finishing off assists from others 20% of the time or less. Meanwhile, a list of championship winners who all were finishers 30% of the time or more, have accumulated 17 championships. I think it's actually a good point than less helioccentric offenses are more resilient. I use this Kobe example all the time: everyone remembers Kobe battling in ISO for ridiculous fadeaway (while ignoring his teammates) but people less often think of Kobe the off-ball mover, who got a ton of buckets in the triangle, driving baseline into a pindown for a quick catch & shooter midranger. It was the bread and butter of Kobe's scoring but it wasn't as heroic or sexy as his tough iso/post up shotmaking. I've always thought it was the secret to Kobe's success and the main ingredient that balanced out his scoring package. When the playmaking only moves in 1 direction, it's easier for the defense to key on. It's what's made Steph Curry offenses impossible to guard. It's what made Reggie Miller one of the most resilient and efficient playoff scorers ever. If you don't have the personnel on your team to have a second playmaking hub (Kobe with Shaq or Pau/Odom, Lebron with Wade/Kyrie, Curry with Draymond), it leaves a part of your offense unweaponized.

Spree, could you explain how you pulled this data. I know bball ref has assisted 2P and 3P but where are you pulling the total number from? Or how are you calculating it? I wanted to see how your idea worked on some other players.

There's a quote from Kerr (or Pop? Or Phil Jackson? Auerbach? haha) : "The ball has energy." I've always loved that one, because even though it seems vague and a pretty wu-wu, there's undoubtedly a lot of truth in it.

PS I hope Trae Young gets a hold of this data and takes it to heart.

[shotsquatch]

The top three guys on that list are the textbook opposite of ballhogs

[reanimator]

Chucking, time of possession, and assisting are all 3 very different things being conflated in here

[rand]

As others have noted, FGs assisted % is not a good way to measure being a ballhog. The best simple statistical method (ie can be easily calculated just by looking at BBRef) I think is USG + AST%.

Your post is almost the opposite of what's true lol

USG% & AST% have nothing to do with ballhogging

OTOH, a low FG assisted% means you're taking your sweet time putting up shots

A low FG assisted% doesn't capture the volume of shots you're putting up, or the possessions you're consuming trying to create a shot for a teammate. It's a measurement of how independent your scoring is, not how often you're using the ball. Which of those two better characterize being a "ballhog"?

[prophet_of_rage]

I leave here % of FG Ast'd per PO career for TOP perimeter players. You can draw your own conclusions.

1. Paul .135
2. Doncic .135
3. Nash .204
4. Westbrook .213
5. Harden .229

6. Wade .291
7. Lebron .326
8. Kobe .349
9. Curry .409
10. Kidd .447

This doesn't show what you think it shows. Of course pass-first PGs will have less of their shots assisted. They initiate the offence.

It shows exactly what I think. Whole offence goes through these players only to one direction. There is no feedback in these situations.

The top 5 were the point guards for their team. The next 5 had point guards finding them. It doesn't say anything about ballooning. It says point guards pass more than they are passed to. Kidd became a spot up shooter in his late career.

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