Shams: Jalen Brunson to New York on 4 year/$104m deal

[WargamesX]

You can think anything you like but the reality of it is one player doesn't get a team to the conference finals, even LeBron needs help and Luka is no different. There are a dozen teams actively tanking, the FO is arranging it from day one of the season and the Mavs aren't one of them.

For your plan to unfold as you think he'd have to get hurt the first month and miss the whole season. Even then they have built a pretty solid team around him though without him it probably wouldn't make the playoffs without him. If he gets hurt a third or even half way through they still not a bottom 10 team.

Then there's the time component of it, this pick would be conveying next draft, if it were years off then the Knicks have time to use it that way. They have this off season and early into the season to trade it as an 'unprotected pick' because if Luka isn't hurt and the Mavs are winning it's becomes obvious.

Even if the Knicks were to get the protections removed it doesn't magically become something it's not, no amount of 'what if' changes that it's assumption from FOs that it isn't going to be a lottery pick. The Knicks can't sell them on the 'what if' of lining up circumstances just right to make it so.

The only caveat I would agree to is if the Knicks were able to add some of their own picks unprotected in a deal for an established 'star'. Then the other team's FO can win the press conference in saying they got 2-3 unprotected picks for the star...of course, it still doesn't make it likely to be a lottery pick.

Of course all of this has to happen before 2022 ends because by the time we are in the new year that 'what if' window closes. If it were a pick 2 or 3 years down the road the Knicks could use it that way at the deadline or next off season, as it stands the 'what if' clock is expiring.

Injuries happen in the first month all the time I am not going to go back and forth on that. I rather talk about our FO and their “Frugal” strategy to team building which honestly isn’t a horrible approach.

First, I don’t think this FO is gearing up to trade for a star player unless the price is ridiculously low. I appreciate the fact Leon Rose who helped gut the Knicks to get his client Melo the maximum contract realizes how that basically handicapped the Knicks attempt to be good around Melo. If they did trade for a star. It would probably involve moving guys for cap space to sign them in FA like how we’re seeing them do for Brunson.

Everything about this FO is “slow and steady wins the race” and “maximize assets”! The FO wizkid Aller’s claim to fame is moving salaries around to get Kevin Love and Lebron on the Cavs and getting JR Smith and Shump for 2nd rounders when they needed wing depth. Perry’s claim to fame is the 2004 Pistons championship team that was made up of really good vets that teams didn’t appreciate, and Thibs who since the 2000’s bulls doesn’t care as long as they can play. Also, of course Leon Rose who I mentioned before knows trading for a star is costly and secretly seems to adore those Villanova teams that were both full of solid, high skilled future professionals and not a single superstar. However, that team was the best “team” on the court, and I think that is what they are building with the Knicks.

Nothing about this FO says they will trade directly for a star unless the team doing the trade wants Pennie’s on the dollar because they are stupid. Teams don’t trade stars because they are stupid. Teams trade stars to get every asset they can from the other teams. However, Teams do trade JR and Shump for two seconds because they are stupid. The most painful trade this Knicks FO did was trading out of 11 (because they desperately needed cap space for Brunson) and them being them, made sure to get additional trade assets to pass that pain along to someone else later.

The Knicks need picks they can trade to desperate teams, like how they got Cam from the Hawks. No protections on a first going out sounds great when a team is selling low on a player for cap reasons. Look at the hawks, they just wanted a 1st and I bet they feel a certain way about those protections now. That’s why an unprotected Mavs pick has value, it’s a better quality of fools gold the Knicks can sell. Now does 1-10 likely occur with the Mavs? No, but remember the season Melo got injured and the Knicks had the third worst record in the league, because Amare, and Tyson had injury issues too.

Injuries happen, and the Knicks can use that to make a desperate team feel a little better about the fact they are losing a good player for a likely late pick but maybe they get lucky and the Mavs had a injury plagued year.

I'm not going to argue about what the intentions of the Knicks FO is because other than, I'm assuming, trying to build a winner who knows....not me and surely not you regardless of how sure you are.

Again...this pick is right around the corner, any value as an 'unprotected pick' would have to be extracted before the end of 2022 no matter how many variations of your idea you want to dance around with.

Write walls of texts about the history of 'what if', it doesn't change that it's unlikely to be a lottery pick and there's one chance for the Knicks to cash in on it ending very soon.

Also again, my point is that this wouldn't be enough to give them the sign and trade they may want because it actually allows them to make their team better lessening the chance of your what if.

Well first off you wrote a wall of text first that gave me the confidence to write my wall of text. Also thank you for reading mine because I only got half way through yours before I got the gist of it and attempted to put this FO in perspective to explain why they are hoarding every halfway asset they can.

We can feel like we want, but that’s who they are, and that is what the team is. They aren’t hunting Stars, they are hunting good to very good players being sold for cheaper than their actual value. As fans we’ll probably look back at this time as one of the better Knicks FO and that isn’t automatically a compliment. They traded the 11th pick to make cap room for Jalen Brunson and now we’re discussing the TPE.

Also again regarding your what if, it is no more relevant than my what if, because the Mav improving with a TPE isn’t more of a sure thing than them suffering injuries. Like honestly look at the majority of the Mavs trades since getting Luka and show me where they got significantly better.

[8516knicks]

It's a little depressing to realize the best move (maybe two with hartenstein) the Knicks FO has made in 3 years was due to Leon wanting to help his kid's income.

[Adelheid]

copy-pasta from some article...

The Mavericks twice failed to lock up Brunson to a cheaper contract extension worth $55.5 million in the last offseason and before the February trade deadline. Rick Brunson, Jalen’s father, told ESPN in April that they were amenable to a contract extension had the Mavericks made an offer.

“I told [Jalen] that once the season has started, that’s it,” Rick Brunson said. “I told the Mavericks, ‘Once the season has started, there’s no contract talk,’ and I went back against my word. In January, I thought he did enough where he deserved [the extension]. I said, ‘Hey, take the money, man.’ He wants security. He wants to live here. And they declined.

“He didn’t turn s*** down. Y’all declined first. When y’all came back to him, we said, ‘Hey, we just want to finish out the season and go from there.'”

It was too late when the Mavericks finally extended an offer after the trade deadline when Brunson was already peaking towards his breakthrough playoff performance.

[iLLmatic860]

Read on Twitter

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[Meat]

It's a little depressing to realize the best move (maybe two with hartenstein) the Knicks FO has made in 3 years was due to Leon wanting to help his kid's income.

it's more than that, this is the first knick's notable pg singing since? ever?

[stuporman]

Injuries happen in the first month all the time I am not going to go back and forth on that. I rather talk about our FO and their “Frugal” strategy to team building which honestly isn’t a horrible approach.

First, I don’t think this FO is gearing up to trade for a star player unless the price is ridiculously low. I appreciate the fact Leon Rose who helped gut the Knicks to get his client Melo the maximum contract realizes how that basically handicapped the Knicks attempt to be good around Melo. If they did trade for a star. It would probably involve moving guys for cap space to sign them in FA like how we’re seeing them do for Brunson.

Everything about this FO is “slow and steady wins the race” and “maximize assets”! The FO wizkid Aller’s claim to fame is moving salaries around to get Kevin Love and Lebron on the Cavs and getting JR Smith and Shump for 2nd rounders when they needed wing depth. Perry’s claim to fame is the 2004 Pistons championship team that was made up of really good vets that teams didn’t appreciate, and Thibs who since the 2000’s bulls doesn’t care as long as they can play. Also, of course Leon Rose who I mentioned before knows trading for a star is costly and secretly seems to adore those Villanova teams that were both full of solid, high skilled future professionals and not a single superstar. However, that team was the best “team” on the court, and I think that is what they are building with the Knicks.

Nothing about this FO says they will trade directly for a star unless the team doing the trade wants Pennie’s on the dollar because they are stupid. Teams don’t trade stars because they are stupid. Teams trade stars to get every asset they can from the other teams. However, Teams do trade JR and Shump for two seconds because they are stupid. The most painful trade this Knicks FO did was trading out of 11 (because they desperately needed cap space for Brunson) and them being them, made sure to get additional trade assets to pass that pain along to someone else later.

The Knicks need picks they can trade to desperate teams, like how they got Cam from the Hawks. No protections on a first going out sounds great when a team is selling low on a player for cap reasons. Look at the hawks, they just wanted a 1st and I bet they feel a certain way about those protections now. That’s why an unprotected Mavs pick has value, it’s a better quality of fools gold the Knicks can sell. Now does 1-10 likely occur with the Mavs? No, but remember the season Melo got injured and the Knicks had the third worst record in the league, because Amare, and Tyson had injury issues too.

Injuries happen, and the Knicks can use that to make a desperate team feel a little better about the fact they are losing a good player for a likely late pick but maybe they get lucky and the Mavs had a injury plagued year.

I'm not going to argue about what the intentions of the Knicks FO is because other than, I'm assuming, trying to build a winner who knows....not me and surely not you regardless of how sure you are.

Again...this pick is right around the corner, any value as an 'unprotected pick' would have to be extracted before the end of 2022 no matter how many variations of your idea you want to dance around with.

Write walls of texts about the history of 'what if', it doesn't change that it's unlikely to be a lottery pick and there's one chance for the Knicks to cash in on it ending very soon.

Also again, my point is that this wouldn't be enough to give them the sign and trade they may want because it actually allows them to make their team better lessening the chance of your what if.

Well first off you wrote a wall of text first that gave me the confidence to write my wall of text. Also thank you for reading mine because I only got half way through yours before I got the gist of it and attempted to put this FO in perspective to explain why they are hoarding every halfway asset they can.

We can feel like we want, but that’s who they are, and that is what the team is. They aren’t hunting Stars, they are hunting good to very good players being sold for cheaper than their actual value. As fans we’ll probably look back at this time as one of the better Knicks FO and that isn’t automatically a compliment. They traded the 11th pick to make cap room for Jalen Brunson and now we’re discussing the TPE.

Also again regarding your what if, it is no more relevant than my what if, because the Mav improving with a TPE isn’t more of a sure thing than them suffering injuries. Like honestly look at the majority of the Mavs trades since getting Luka and show me where they got significantly better.

I know how to use paragraph breaks so there isn't a wall of text, if it looks like a wall on a PC imagine how it looks on mobile as I often do including many others. Although, my wall of text comment was more about how you are giving many examples of something that is beside the point not the actual point.

I won't make a judgement about the FO until they are gone but I will look at each individual move and assess it on it's own and in the context of everything they have done. Competent enough to not hurt the franchise long term is notable because few Knicks FOs have done that but it's not to be lauded.

I did make a what if comment although if we are to examine the two what if scenarios to see the likelihood of which might happen we see a big difference. The series of events that would result in the Mavs yielding a top 10 pick are more unlikely to happen than the almost certainty of them using the TPE.

So if we are gauging value between these two assets the one that is closer to 1 in a 100 is much less valuable than the one that is 99ish% likely to happen... well, mebbe a little better odds than that but not no where near enough for it to be equal to the other.

Yet, I really do agree that to those who can't see the nuance of this situation it optically appears as a benefit to have it be 'unprotected' but the probability that the removal of those protections is the reason it conveys is so small.

So sure, protection erasure is the starter and then try to recoup a 2nd because still they want it to happen so they can add another high salary player to their team to improve this season even though they are super duper capped. They can use it before the season really starts so it's a huge asset.

I guess the question we are exploring through this discussion is if just getting the protections removed is enough to not turn down the sign and trade deal. Then we can ask if the TPE may allow them to get a guy that makes the pick 24-27 as opposed to maybe 15-19 worth the optics of 'unprotected'?

That is drilling way too deep on this but it is a way to look at it.

[SelbyCobra]

Thinking about this, the thing that concerns me most about the Brunson signing isn't the fact that it's the only significant move Leon has been able to make in the time he's been here, and it's based almost exclusively on nepotism.

It's that the nepotism is derived from a connection to Rick Brunson who is a bit problematic on his own. Jalen is a worthwhile signing all by himself, in my opinion. If Rose had cut Rick out of the process - publicly, at the very least - and had this strictly be about the nepotism of Jalen being his godson and the client of his actual son, that'd have been cool. But that he hired RICK to be a part of the actual coaching staff for this organization with his iffy background lets me know that he's not great at assessing value objectively. He really just puts on for his people first and foremost.

Damn.

[aq_ua]

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That makes sense - discussions were going on too long, the gap was probably too significant. Mavs are already over the tax so they were going to be reluctant to take any sort of contract back, and I couldn’t figure out what Mavs asset we could take back that would be interesting for us.

[thebuzzardman]

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That makes sense - discussions were going on too long, the gap was probably too significant. Mavs are already over the tax so they were going to be reluctant to take any sort of contract back, and I couldn’t figure out what Mavs asset we could take back that would be interesting for us.

Once BXetc and some others clarified (again) the cap situation and how the TPE's would work - Mavs getting one, or Knicks, and the Knicks one there being a hard time for it to be anything other the $17 million zone, I was kind of not giving a sh*t about the situation.

I'll give the FO credit (maybe) if the negotiations were an attempt to extract SOMETHING out of the situation - a 2nd rounder, the TPE itself, or a TPE for the Mavs and I guess unprotecting their pick? But the Mavs really don't have a player I think could realistically be exchanged for Fournier or Rose or Cam that the Mavs would give up (so not Bullocks) and the Knicks would want or would be helpful.
Also, the 17 million TPE for the Knicks would mean they might be looking for a "middling vet" and I'm not sure who is even left, and IF there is anyone left, is that anyone really any better than Rose or Fournier or even Cam - and Knicks can't find minutes for Cam as it is.

I know there's a faction, and I was one of them, that wanted Rose or Fournier off the team just to "free up time for the youth" but dealing Fournier away for essentially nothing, even if he can't guard a traffic cone, just seems like a bad idea, bad asset management.

Cam just needs to beat Fournier out, IF the FO allows a 17 million guy to come off the bench. I suspect that for all of Cam's athleticism and Fournier's lack of defense, that Cam just won't bring enough in total for Thibs or frankly any non tanking coach, to think it's worth it.

I HOPE Cam sees his career at a sort of crossroads with a 2nd contract coming up and a chance to take control of his career in a better way, beats out Fournier and Fournier gets the Burks role off the bench.
Of course, this means IQ or Grimes isn't playing that much...

[thebuzzardman]

ULTIMATE!!!!!!

Watch on YouTube

Whatever. This guy was good to see this a year ago though.

[WargamesX]

Read on Twitter

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They went through a lot of trouble for this to be a option so it’s not unexpected.

[Marty McFly]

not going to act like I was on the sign Brunson bandwagon, but I'm excited for next season.

[Poetry-In-Motion]

Sports media during the season: Why are the Knicks playing vets like Burks, Noel, Taj & Kemba over the youth?

Sports media in offseason: Knicks got rid of a lot of valuable pieces like Burks , Noel, Taj & Kemba just for Jalen Brunson?

Gotta love it

This statement is so true. If these series of moves somehow gives Cam more minutes, it's more of a win.

I do have a question though that someone might be able to help on.

What was the overall draft capital given up to do those salary dumps? I'm aware Knicks gave up their pick at either 12th or 13th to OKC, but they received future firsts back? And that's simply so they won't have a first round rookie cap hold?

Also to dump those salaries above to Detroit, it was a bunch of second rounders?

A consolidated summary of this offseason of additions and subtractions including draft capital would be awesome.

Three years ago... I would be able to do this in minutes. I'm getting old, people.

[Kampuchea]

Sports media during the season: Why are the Knicks playing vets like Burks, Noel, Taj & Kemba over the youth?

Sports media in offseason: Knicks got rid of a lot of valuable pieces like Burks , Noel, Taj & Kemba just for Jalen Brunson?

Gotta love it

This statement is so true. If these series of moves somehow gives Cam more minutes, it's more of a win.

I do have a question though that someone might be able to help on.

What was the overall draft capital given up to do those salary dumps? I'm aware Knicks gave up their pick at either 12th or 13th to OKC, but they received future firsts back? And that's simply so they won't have a first round rookie cap hold?

Also to dump those salaries above to Detroit, it was a bunch of second rounders?

A consolidated summary of this offseason of additions and subtractions including draft capital would be awesome.

Three years ago... I would be able to do this in minutes. I'm getting old, people.

I did the draft day trade here
viewtopic.php?f=24&t=2205805

Knicks in:
2023 first round pick via Detroit (protected 1-18 until 2024, protected 1-13 in 2025, protected 1-11 in 2026, protected 1-9 in 2027)
2023 first round pick via Washington (protected 1-14 in 2023, protected 1-12 in 2024, protected 1-10 in 2025, protected 1-8 in 2026)
2025 first-round pick via Milwaukee (protected 1-4)
$18 million in cap space

Knicks out:
Pick 11
Kemba
Four second round picks (2023,2023,2023,2024)


That doesn't include the Noel & Burks & 2nd rounders trade.

[Jeff Van Gully]

ULTIMATE!!!!!!

Watch on YouTube

Whatever. This guy was good to see this a year ago though.

This what we been saying

Ultimate Warrior

[3toheadmelo]

Read on Twitter

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Good. Fk Dallas we ain’t helping them

[Poetry-In-Motion]

Sports media during the season: Why are the Knicks playing vets like Burks, Noel, Taj & Kemba over the youth?

Sports media in offseason: Knicks got rid of a lot of valuable pieces like Burks , Noel, Taj & Kemba just for Jalen Brunson?

Gotta love it

This statement is so true. If these series of moves somehow gives Cam more minutes, it's more of a win.

I do have a question though that someone might be able to help on.

What was the overall draft capital given up to do those salary dumps? I'm aware Knicks gave up their pick at either 12th or 13th to OKC, but they received future firsts back? And that's simply so they won't have a first round rookie cap hold?

Also to dump those salaries above to Detroit, it was a bunch of second rounders?

A consolidated summary of this offseason of additions and subtractions including draft capital would be awesome.

Three years ago... I would be able to do this in minutes. I'm getting old, people.

I did the draft day trade here
viewtopic.php?f=24&t=2205805

Knicks in:
2023 first round pick via Detroit (protected 1-18 until 2024, protected 1-13 in 2025, protected 1-11 in 2026, protected 1-9 in 2027)
2023 first round pick via Washington (protected 1-14 in 2023, protected 1-12 in 2024, protected 1-10 in 2025, protected 1-8 in 2026)
2025 first-round pick via Milwaukee (protected 1-4)
$18 million in cap space

Knicks out:
Pick 11
Kemba
Four second round picks (2023,2023,2023,2024)


That doesn't include the Noel & Burks & 2nd rounders trade.

This helps. Appreciate you.

[thebuzzardman]

ULTIMATE!!!!!!

Watch on YouTube

Whatever. This guy was good to see this a year ago though.

This what we been saying

Ultimate Warrior

Well, he's no Colin Sexton, but he'll have to do.

[KnixinSix]

ULTIMATE!!!!!!

Watch on YouTube

Whatever. This guy was good to see this a year ago though.

This what we been saying

Ultimate Warrior

Well, he's no Colin Sexton, but he'll have to do.

Lol. This team has been adding culture guys too. A lot of good character on this team (yes Randle had some internal turmoil last year but looks to bounceback).

Rose is a born again Christian, so is IQ. They have some pretty amazing stories of redemption. Just a lot of good guys on this team. I know that hasn't equated to wins yet but there are a lot of guys that you really can root for here.

[thebuzzardman]

This what we been saying

Ultimate Warrior

Well, he's no Colin Sexton, but he'll have to do.

Lol. This team has been adding culture guys too. A lot of good character on this team (yes Randle had some internal turmoil last year but looks to bounceback).

Rose is a born again Christian, so is IQ. They have some pretty amazing stories of redemption. Just a lot of good guys on this team. I know that hasn't equated to wins yet but there are a lot of guys that you really can root for here.

I've heard tell that Colin Sexton is AWESOME.
Him and Garland are the tits.
I mean, that team didn't win d*ck until Mobley was drafted but we'll just ignore that.

Maybe the Knicks can trade Fournier and IQ for Sexton or something, so at least a few posters can be happy with the offseason.