Why BALL HOGS never win a chamionchip?

[Meat]

Counter point, every championship team has at least one ball hog, more often than not 2

[raleigh]

If this thread was a subtle Big3 advertisement, I congratulate the OP.

[Lalouie]

x

[formula 400]

Kobe won 5 of them as a ball hog. He was an elite passer when he wanted to be or an elite ISO scorer when he wanted to be, but rarely ever balanced both

uh kobe won 5. only handful of players have 5+ rings. kobe did what he did to win. stop hating it seeping through your pores

[Silvie Lysandra]

All time leaders in career usage:
1: Michael Jordan
3: Kobe Bryant
5: LeBron James

Of the 73 NBA championships, these 3 players have won 15 of them. Number 6, Dwayne Wade, won 2, one independently of LeBron. Weird thread.

[Ein Sof]

Counter point, every championship team has at least one ball hog, more often than not 2

Are you claiming ballhogging is a good thing...?

[Archx]

I leave here % of FG Ast'd per PO career for TOP perimeter players. You can draw your own conclusions.

1. Paul .135
2. Doncic .135
3. Nash .204
4. Westbrook .213
5. Harden .229

6. Wade .291
7. Lebron .326
8. Kobe .349
9. Curry .409
10. Kidd .447

So as a Mavs fan, seeing Luka dominate the ball definitely kills me because I have been screaming about these other guy not playing championship ball for years. I’m just hoping in Lukas case he gets another star and becomes less dominant. Clearly we’ll only find out if the Mavs actually do get another star.

Weird that you're bringing up Mavs offense because them not getting in to the finals had nothing to do with their offense. Defense killed them and no rim presence. What they were doing on offense worked.

They had 114 ORTG compared to Boston 106 vs GSW. But like i said, defense was the issue.

[Beethoven]

Kobe was a freakin black hole

[Optms]

Kobe won 5 of them as a ball hog. He was an elite passer when he wanted to be or an elite ISO scorer when he wanted to be, but rarely ever balanced both

Goes to show you didn't watch a single series of the Lakers playoffs between 2007-2010.

[SecondTake]

I leave here % of FG Ast'd per PO career for TOP perimeter players. You can draw your own conclusions.

1. Paul .135
2. Doncic .135
3. Nash .204
4. Westbrook .213
5. Harden .229

6. Wade .291
7. Lebron .326
8. Kobe .349
9. Curry .409
10. Kidd .447

What is this saying again? Kobe is the biggest ball hog on the list and he won multiple champion shops.

Kobe lead the Lakers in assists for many seasons even though he was the shooting guard not the point guard

That just proves that he was a ball hog. everything had to go through him to the point he even minimized his PG

Sent from my SM-S908W using RealGM mobile app

[ken6199]

I leave here % of FG Ast'd per PO career for TOP perimeter players. You can draw your own conclusions.

1. Paul .135
2. Doncic .135
3. Nash .204
4. Westbrook .213
5. Harden .229

6. Wade .291
7. Lebron .326
8. Kobe .349
9. Curry .409
10. Kidd .447

Another grand example of how stats without context are completely worthless.

Exactly. It only takes Kidd NOT going to Dallas, or Terry being 15% less hot to completely invalidate OP's hypothesis.

What's even crazier? OP listed Doncic, a 23 year old, in a "never win a championship" thread.

We all know it, he just wanted to put Curry in there.

[SpreeS]

I leave here % of FG Ast'd per PO career for TOP perimeter players. You can draw your own conclusions.

1. Paul .135
2. Doncic .135
3. Nash .204
4. Westbrook .213
5. Harden .229

6. Wade .291
7. Lebron .326
8. Kobe .349
9. Curry .409
10. Kidd .447

Another grand example of how stats without context are completely worthless.

Exactly. It only takes Kidd NOT going to Dallas, or Terry being 15% less hot to completely invalidate OP's hypothesis.

What's even crazier? OP listed Doncic, a 23 year old, in a "never win a championship" thread.

We all know it, he just wanted to put Curry in there.

I want to show, especially for Doncic fan, Harden/Westbrook playing style won’t win you champ’s. Doncic holds time with ball per poss record (8.3s). I do everything for everyone with ball, stand on offence w/o ball and rest on defence - it leads nowhere.

[DoItALL9]

I leave here % of FG Ast'd per PO career for TOP perimeter players. You can draw your own conclusions.

1. Paul .135
2. Doncic .135
3. Nash .204
4. Westbrook .213
5. Harden .229

6. Wade .291
7. Lebron .326
8. Kobe .349
9. Curry .409
10. Kidd .447

What's per PO?

Sent from my LM-G710 using RealGM mobile app

[atlantabbq99]

Kobe won 5 of them as a ball hog. He was an elite passer when he wanted to be or an elite ISO scorer when he wanted to be, but rarely ever balanced both

Kobe only won 2 rings. He was a bus rider for the first 3.

[ken6199]

Another grand example of how stats without context are completely worthless.

Exactly. It only takes Kidd NOT going to Dallas, or Terry being 15% less hot to completely invalidate OP's hypothesis.

What's even crazier? OP listed Doncic, a 23 year old, in a "never win a championship" thread.

We all know it, he just wanted to put Curry in there.

I want to show, especially for Doncic fan, Harden/Westbrook playing style won’t win you champ’s. Doncic holds time with ball per poss record (8.3s). I do everything for everyone with ball, stand on offence w/o ball and rest on defence - it leads nowhere.

Harden monopolizing the ball was a few bounces/hamstring away from taking down the death lineup with inferior talent. They played against that team better than anyone else in the league, and proved that type of basketball can be useful. You cannot ignore all the facts and only focus on the result then work backwards to validate your hypothesis. Other posters called you out with stats. Please read their posts.

And if you categorize Harden and Westbook into a same style to try to prove some point? Then I don't know what to say here.

[tsherkin]

Kobe only won 2 rings. He was a bus rider for the first 3.

That's not really a good characterization at all. Kobe was a high-end star player during the three-peat. He was more efficient on high volume than Shaq against the Kings in 2000, struggled versus Phoenix, then played very well versus Portland before having a rough one versus Indiana. He outperformed Shaq in the Blazers series in 2001, then kicked in Sacramento's teeth, and obliterated San Antonio before struggling against Philly. Struggled vs Portland in 2002, was about on par with Shaq versus the Spurs, struggled versus the Kings and then smashed New Jersey. All in all, he did very well during the three-peat. He was very much not a "bus rider," that's some serious haterade to actually believe that.

[atlantabbq99]

Kobe only won 2 rings. He was a bus rider for the first 3.

That's not really a good characterization at all. Kobe was a high-end star player during the three-peat. He was more efficient on high volume than Shaq against the Kings in 2000, struggled versus Phoenix, then played very well versus Portland before having a rough one versus Indiana. He outperformed Shaq in the Blazers series in 2001, then kicked in Sacramento's teeth, and obliterated San Antonio before struggling against Philly. Struggled vs Portland in 2002, was about on par with Shaq versus the Spurs, struggled versus the Kings and then smashed New Jersey. All in all, he did very well during the three-peat. He was very much not a "bus rider," that's some serious haterade to actually believe that.

Kobe was trash in the Shaq era. He was horrible against the Sixers, Pacers, and Detroit. His only decent series was against New Jersey.

3 out of the 4 finals he was hurting the team and a liability on offense and defense, and Shaq had to drag him into a championship. Combined against the sixers, pacers and pistons Kobe only averaged 18ppg and shot 39FG% and he allowed guys he was guarding, Iverson, Miller, and Rip to shoot over there averages, about 47FG%.

Nets was the only series where Kobe was able to shoot over 40% and out play his opponent.

[rand]

Again, do you think MJ or Curry (back when he was nearly leading the league in FGs) were ballhogs?

If no, then there's clearly something more to it.

Imagine a pickup game where you have these two teammates:

Spencer, who takes 1/5 of your team's shots but when he does shoot it's usually off his own creation.

Michael, who takes 2/5 of your team's shots. Michael's scores come off passes twice as often as Spencer's but passing to him isn't optional since he's the best player and dictates when and where he wants the ball.

This is Spencer Dinwiddie and Michael Jordan.

2022 Dinwiddie was only assisted on 32.6% of his FGAs, but he only shot 18.5 FGAs per 100 possessions.

1998 Jordan was assisted on 59.6% of his FGAs, but he took 32.1 FGAs per 100 possessions.

Are you telling me that 2022 Dinwiddie was really the bigger ballhog over 1998 Jordan?

lol

Yeah man. That's exactly how it works.

MJ was such a cancerous ballhog, unlike Dimwiddie. And so was 2016 Curry:

28.6 FGA/100
46.9% assisted rate

In fact, every first option in NBA history was a ballhog.

Who says words have to mean things?

I didn't say MJ was a cancerous ballhog. I said he's a bigger ballhog than Spencer Dinwiddie while demonstrating why using % of FGM assisted is a highly flawed way of measuring ballhogging. Your argument is so weak that you have to beat up on straw men rather than addressing what I actually say.

Here's a few more examples to demonstrate how absurd your position is:

Career % of FGs Assisted (career FGA in parentheses)
Tony Parker: 30.5% (12.6)
Andre Miller: 31.1% (10.0)
Rajon Rondo: 31.7% (8.9)
TJ McConnell: 33.0% (6.1)
Jrue Holiday: 33.4% (13.9)
Jameer Nelson: 34.4% (9.9)

Allen Iverson: 36.4% (21.8)
LeBron James: 36.9% (19.6)
Kobe Bryant: 40.6% (19.5)
Tracy McGrady: 44.5% (16.4)
Carmelo Anthony: 50.0% (18.0)
Bradley Beal: 53.4% (17.6)

So Tony Parker, Andre Miller, Rajon Rondo, TJ McConnell, Jrue Holiday and Jameer Nelson are bigger "ballhogs" than Allen Iverson, LeBron James, Kobe Bryant, Tracy McGrady, Carmelo Anthony and Bradley Beal? Yeah man, that's exactly how it works

In fact, every PG who doesn't shoot a high proportion of 3PAs is a "ballhog" (according to your astoundingly bad logic).

But yeah, who says words have to mean things?

P.S. Jordan is a bigger ballhog than Spencer Dinwiddie but that doesn't make him a cancer. Jordan is one of the best scorers of all-time so if he's on my team then I'd like him to hog the ball a fair amount. This shouldn't be hard to understand.

[JN61]

I leave here % of FG Ast'd per PO career for TOP perimeter players. You can draw your own conclusions.

1. Paul .135
2. Doncic .135
3. Nash .204
4. Westbrook .213
5. Harden .229

6. Wade .291
7. Lebron .326
8. Kobe .349
9. Curry .409
10. Kidd .447

Another grand example of how stats without context are completely worthless.

Exactly. It only takes Kidd NOT going to Dallas, or Terry being 15% less hot to completely invalidate OP's hypothesis.

What's even crazier? OP listed Doncic, a 23 year old, in a "never win a championship" thread.

We all know it, he just wanted to put Curry in there.

That is usually agendas of these type of poorly thought out threads.

[JN61]

Exactly. It only takes Kidd NOT going to Dallas, or Terry being 15% less hot to completely invalidate OP's hypothesis.

What's even crazier? OP listed Doncic, a 23 year old, in a "never win a championship" thread.

We all know it, he just wanted to put Curry in there.

I want to show, especially for Doncic fan, Harden/Westbrook playing style won’t win you champ’s. Doncic holds time with ball per poss record (8.3s). I do everything for everyone with ball, stand on offence w/o ball and rest on defence - it leads nowhere.

Harden monopolizing the ball was a few bounces/hamstring away from taking down the death lineup with inferior talent. They played against that team better than anyone else in the league, and proved that type of basketball can be useful. You cannot ignore all the facts and only focus on the result then work backwards to validate your hypothesis. Other posters called you out with stats. Please read their posts.

And if you categorize Harden and Westbook into a same style to try to prove some point? Then I don't know what to say here.

Yes. Harden is significantly more ball hogging and dribble happy. Not even a contest there. Harden dribbles air out of basketball on half court. Westbrook tries to kick it out to easy simple basket as fast as possible in first 10 seconds.