Dirk Garnett vs peak LeBron

[NO-KG-AI]

Dirk with KG's length, athleticism, finishing ability, and creativity with the ball becomes a better scorer and defender than LeBron. Dirk with that kind of burst and vertical ability at 7' and 250+ is an unstoppable scorer that you can't give an inch of space anywhere on the floor.

[70sFan]

Another thread where defense doesn't matter, as long as someone is "elite defender anyway". Dirk Garnett would be elite offensively anyway, so why shouldn't we focus on defensive gap?

I hate how inconsistent some people are.

[AdagioPace]

There's no argument for KG being the 2nd best defender of all time. That's Hakeem. I'm not even sure KG was a better defender than Duncan, but I can see an argument.

Moreover, offense and defense are not equally important. Offense is clearly more important than defense. And in this case LeBron is clearly a tier above on offense than a KG/Dirk hybrid. The defensive gap may be bigger but the offensive gap is much more important. Now if LeBron was a Larry Bird-level defender, I'd take the KG/Dirk hybrid but he's not.

I don’t think KG is better than Hakeem, but for peak his defense has a case sure why not?

I don’t know why though you think Lebron is a full tier better on offense. Dirk is arguably a top 10 offensive player ever, you give him another inch with Kg’s athleticism and passing I don’t see how Lebron is clearly a full tier better than that. That would be a really scary player. One other thing, are you assuming Lebron peaked on o and d in the same year? When Lebron peaked on offense he wasn’t even close to his d peak unless you think 09 was the year.

Hakeem could do everything KG could do on defense, except Hakeem was a way better paint defender/rim protector. Heck, Hakeem even had better hands than KG as evidenced not just by his number of steals but by the sheer amount of deflections he caused. There is no case for KG being a better defender than Hakeem.

LeBron by himself was a better scorer than Dirk, and KG was a worse scorer than both. And Lebron was a better passer than KG, and Dirk was a worse passer than both. LeBron as a passer is several tiers of KG. So combining both Dirk/KG gives them no offensive advantage over LeBron. Dirk/KG becomes more athletic but so what? Being athletic is not an offensive skill.

Dirk might be a top 10 offensive player but the difference between 1 and 5 on the list is massive. Do you think Dirk and MJ are in the same tier on offense? Because LeBron is much closer to MJ on offense than Dirk is to MJ. To me, that's a full tier better.

I don't think a Dirk/KG hybrid would be better than 09 LeBron, '10 LeBron, '13 LeBron, or '16 LeBron. Those are usually considered LeBron's peak years. So whichever one you choose LeBron was still better.

I think it comes down to how much you value Dirk's offense here. I noticed there's a big opinion spectrum about him. Assuming his gravitational pull isn't affected by era, Dirk is as good as Jokic and Curry offensively.
You're adding KG's defense and body, I don't see how Lebron is as valuable as this frankenstein.
You can even argue (I wouldn't do it) KG was as good as Lebron at his best.

[No-more-rings]

Hakeem could do everything KG could do on defense, except Hakeem was a way better paint defender/rim protector. Heck, Hakeem even had better hands than KG as evidenced not just by his number of steals but by the sheer amount of deflections he caused. There is no case for KG being a better defender than Hakeem.

I'm not trying to advocate for Kg over Hakeem, if you want to debate their defense that sounds like a different thread it seems like you are trying to evade the Lebron vs KG on defense subject.

LeBron by himself was a better scorer than Dirk, and KG was a worse scorer than both. And Lebron was a better passer than KG, and Dirk was a worse passer than both. LeBron as a passer is several tiers of KG. So combining both Dirk/KG gives them no offensive advantage over LeBron. Dirk/KG becomes more athletic but so what? Being athletic is not an offensive skill.

Dirk might be a top 10 offensive player but the difference between 1 and 5 on the list is massive. Do you think Dirk and MJ are in the same tier on offense? Because LeBron is much closer to MJ on offense than Dirk is to MJ. To me, that's a full tier better.

Look, we can have a debate about how good Dirk's offense is. But you seem to be trying to boil this down to, Lebron is better on offense than Dirk and still a great defender in his own right so none of Kg's strengths really matter. Kg is not just merely a better defender than Lebron, he's a different class. Kg in Boston was putting up some of the highest DRAPMs on record, KG and Dirk both led the league in RAPM at least once. I don't know how you think combining the 2's peak impact falls "clearly" short of Lebron. That doesn't even seem rational in my mind.

On offense alone, Dirk/KG is going to be a better offensive player than peak Bird. Do you think peak Bird is clearly below Lebron on offense?

Again it's not as simple as just adding or subtracting and abilities and comparing that to Lebron. There would be absolutely no way you'd be able to slow down a supercharged Dirk with superior athleticism, handles, passing, etc. Did you even think about how that effects the rest of his game? Or think of it like, a supercharged KG who who has already lead the league in impact multiples times, now has all time level gravity from anywhere on the court at 7 feet tall, can shoot lights out, draw fouls at a very high rate and make quick and timely passes when doubled. That's not even mentioning defense, where he's protecting the paint and just blowing up offensive sets all over the court all game long.

So I'm not sure if you've really thought this through, or you just like Lebron that much that it doesn't matter. That hybrid would simply be a force we've never seen before. It would be like giving this year's Jokic all time great defense and calling him clearly worse than Lebron.

[ReddoverKobe]

Steph antetokounmpo, the goat

[Ron Swanson]

This myth of Lebron's defensive "peak" rivaling some of the all-time great defenders continues to be absolutely laughable. Like with 99% of these scenarios where we're combining the strengths of two very different Top-30 players, this is obviously the Dirk Garnett hybrid.

[uberhikari]

I'm not trying to advocate for Kg over Hakeem, if you want to debate their defense that sounds like a different thread it seems like you are trying to evade the Lebron vs KG on defense subject.

This all started because you were trying to exaggerate KG's defense impact as an argument for why a Dirk/KG hybrid is better than LeBron. This is what you wrote:

Garnett’s defensive peak is arguably 2nd all time, the defense gap would be larger.

There's no argument for KG being a better defender than Hakeem. And this exaggeration wasn't necessary because I never tried to argue that KG wasn't a much, much better defender than LeBron. There's nothing to evade.

On offense alone, Dirk/KG is going to be a better offensive player than peak Bird. Do you think peak Bird is clearly below Lebron on offense?

Yes.

So I'm not sure if you've really thought this through, or you just like Lebron that much that it doesn't matter. That hybrid would simply be a force we've never seen before. It would be like giving this year's Jokic all time great defense and calling him clearly worse than Lebron.

See, this is the problem I have. You keep trying to make unnecessary exaggerations. It's not at all clear that a Dirk/KG hybrid would be better than Jokic on offense. Jokic can shoot from everywhere on the floor, is a better passer than KG, but has a low-post game that neither Dirk nor KG ever had.

Furthermore, the only element of shooting that Dirk enhances for KG is his 3-point shooting. Dirk took 55.7% of his shots from 10ft-3pt line and shot ~47%. KG took 54.4% of his shots from 10ft-3pt line and shot ~45%. Now, Dirk's 3pt shooting would be a big deal. And with KG's athleticism, he would probably draw a lot of fouls and hit 88% of them.

So, in the end, what would a Dirk/KG hybrid get you on offense? A taller, more athletic Bird with greater scoring volume with worse passing (probably a tier or 2 lower). Now, is this player on offense better than LeBron? Maybe, but I don't think so. For one, LeBron would still be a better passer. And depending on the circumstances LeBron's volume scoring + efficiency might still be better.

Now, if that player was better in the low-post and at the rim, and if that player changed their shot profile to eliminate those long 2's they would definitely be better.

And the defensive gap between a Dirk/KG hybrid and LeBron would be pretty big. And, now that I think about it, this defensive value might shift me over to the hybrid.

[DraymondGold]

So I'm not sure if you've really thought this through, or you just like Lebron that much that it doesn't matter. That hybrid would simply be a force we've never seen before. It would be like giving this year's Jokic all time great defense and calling him clearly worse than Lebron.

See, this is the problem I have. You keep trying to make unnecessary exaggerations. It's not at all clear that a Dirk/KG hybrid would be better than Jokic on offense. Jokic can shoot from everywhere on the floor, is a better passer than KG, but has a low-post game that neither Dirk nor KG ever had.

Furthermore, the only element of shooting that Dirk enhances for KG is his 3-point shooting. Dirk took 55.7% of his shots from 10ft-3pt line and shot ~47%. KG took 54.4% of his shots from 10ft-3pt line and shot ~45%. Now, Dirk's 3pt shooting would be a big deal. And with KG's athleticism, he would probably draw a lot of fouls and hit 88% of them.

I definitely agree that Jokic would be the better passer. He's pretty crazy at passing

But I'd be careful not to undersell Dirk's scoring advantage over those two. Peak dirk had a 3 year average of 30 PPG at +10% rTS, which is LeBron level scoring, far higher than anything Jokic or KG have attained. And this kind of scoring advantage remained in the playoffs (solving one of KG's biggest weaknesses -- not just an overall lack of resilience, but the lack of resilience of his scoring specifically). I appreciate that you did some comparative analysis from different regions. I haven't totally tracked where specifically Dirk gained his scoring advantage, but wherever you credit the improvement, it would certainly be an improvement from KG.

Dirk/KG are also more scalable than Jokic if you value that. Both are two of the most scalable players ever. The improved athleticism also might fit better as a lob threat or an offensive rebounder next to a perimeter star (though I'm not too sure how Jokic's rebounding compares to them).

So, in the end, what would a Dirk/KG hybrid get you on offense? A taller, more athletic Bird with greater scoring volume with worse passing (probably a tier or 2 lower). Now, is this player on offense better than LeBron? Maybe, but I don't think so. For one, LeBron would still be a better passer. And depending on the circumstances LeBron's volume scoring + efficiency might still be better.

Now, if that player was better in the low-post and at the rim, and if that player changed their shot profile to eliminate those long 2's they would definitely be better.

[/quote]
I tend to agree that LeBron's the better passer still, and LeBron's scoring longevity is probably better, but at their peak the scoring would be pretty close. (to say nothing of the offensive skills, e.g. rebounding or screen-setting, etc.)

And I definitely agree eliminating long 2s for 3s would improve their offensive effectiveness. It's funny how long it took for the league to figure that out

[Dooley]

Furthermore, the only element of shooting that Dirk enhances for KG is his 3-point shooting. Dirk took 55.7% of his shots from 10ft-3pt line and shot ~47%. KG took 54.4% of his shots from 10ft-3pt line and shot ~45%. Now, Dirk's 3pt shooting would be a big deal. And with KG's athleticism, he would probably draw a lot of fouls and hit 88% of them.

The foul-drawing would be by far the biggest thing that Dirk adds to the hybrid - Dirk was already elite at drawing fouls while KG was notably weak at it (especially in the postseason). It's a huge, huge upgrade that would massively juice KG's scoring numbers and his reliability as a crunch time option. In most other respects, the offensive difference between Dirk and KG is not that large IMO.

I think OP's question is, in effect, largely the same as asking "if KG was elite at drawing fouls, would he have a GOAT case".

[Saints14]

LeBron is still miles ahead as a primary creator than KG or Dirk so this hybrid isn't closing that gap. Dirk Garnett is more scalable but when talking about an ATG primary creator like LeBron scalability doesn't really matter

[JordansBulls]

Well both Dirk and KG beat peak Lebron without HCA.

[grpistons]

What about Shaquille Curry?

[Jaivl]

Well both Dirk and KG beat peak Lebron without HCA.

Ignoring the implications of peak LeBron somehow being both 2010 and 2011, minus times minus is plus, so LeBron would beat the Dirk Garnett hybrid with HCA and with a franchise that had never won before.

[NO-KG-AI]

LeBron is still miles ahead as a primary creator than KG or Dirk so this hybrid isn't closing that gap. Dirk Garnett is more scalable but when talking about an ATG primary creator like LeBron scalability doesn't really matter

Nah. He's a much better creator than KG because KG lacked the scoring punch to draw doubles and move defenses as well as LeBron to leverage his all time great passing skill. KG is an all time great passer, regardless of position. I suggest you go watch Ben Taylor's breakdown of KG and his passing acumen on Backpicks GOAT project. Here is an excerpt from that page:

"In tracking over 1,000 of Garnett’s possessions from 1997-2009, his rate of quality passing was near John Stockton’s, and using just his games from 2003 to 2008, his rate of “good” passes was over 4 per 100, comparable to Jason Kidd. While Garnett’s on-ball load dipped in Boston, his passing was better than ever, making life easier for the offensive weapons around him. He was also the most prolific creator of any big man in history (if we don’t count Larry Bird). In tracking Garnett, his creation rates were similar to his estimated non-3 Box Creation marks — in the 7 per 100 range — placing him at the top of the heap since this stat became available in 1978."

Dirk isn't the creator LeBron is because while he's a dominant scorer, he's just merely a good/solid passer, and not an all time great one.

You combine Dirk's scoring ability with KG's ball handling and athleticism, and you've now unlocked a whole new level of warping of defenses to take advantage of KG's fantastic passing, and both guys were also better about careless turnovers as well.

That gap would shrink a ton when you put their best qualities together.