Bill Simmons' "Trade Value List", 2022 edition

[TheLand13]

bill simmons is biased, and like most media members hate james harden

if harden comes out and post a season with a PER of 26 or higher watch at how the media leaves him off all-nba for the third straight year. Draymond is right the players need to take these voting privedleges back from the biased media

if luka doncic posted 29/7/6 but the mavs were an 8th seed would bill simmons and his ilk leave luka completely off of every all-nba team like they did james harden in 2016. Nope

Most "biased media members" hate James Harden because they recognize him for what he is: an incredibly flawed player who you can't win with if he's your leading man. He doesn't play defense, relies too heavily on getting the benefit of the doubt from refs, he's not a good playmaker and will usually rely on stalling the offense and hoping that his teammates are open for a pass out of a drive.

The problem with Bill Simmons is that he clearly doesn't watch a ton of basketball. Even at his peak, he was like most of us on this board: he specifically watches his favorite team so his knowledge only extends to the team he watches and the biggest stars in the league. Whenever the discussion swerves a little deeper into the depth charts, you can tell Bill is running his mouth about players he hasn't seen. This is no great crime, 90% of the posters here are the same, but Bill isn't some realgm poster, he's a sports journalism demigod. I think he was so appealing back in the day because he was a nerdy fan with a very entertaining writing style, back in an era where NBA journalism was extremely bland. But he never made the transition to real analyst.

Anytime I listen to Bill Simmons nowadays (sometimes I'll listen to his podcast if he has a good guest, or I'll listen to him on the Lowe Post), he'll always spew a half dozen garbage-tier takes. He has this confidence that he's a 1 percenter as a basketball mind, but in reality, nerdy NBA fandom caught up an surpassed him a decade ago. He's just some dude now. A normal nerdy fan that just happens to have 10000x the platform than every other nerdy fan.

The list isn't very good. He doesn't know enough about each of the players he's categorizing. Too many of the people on this list are there for the idea of the player, rather than an understanding of what the player is and therefor what their value might be.

I usually watch as many games as I can of multiple times (mostly because of fantasy basketball), but even then I try my best to stick to the team I pay attention to the most. I'm going to choose not to comment on most of the other players, and just say this: I cannot agree at all with Jarrett Allen's placement on this list. But you could say that about a couple of the players that are in that category too. I don't think anyone would look at what Jarrett Allen did last year and think "this guy is a quality starter" unless they were just going entirely off of stats.

[Ruma85]

bill simmons is biased, and like most media members hate james harden

if harden comes out and post a season with a PER of 26 or higher watch at how the media leaves him off all-nba for the third straight year. Draymond is right the players need to take these voting privedleges back from the biased media

if luka doncic posted 29/7/6 but the mavs were an 8th seed would bill simmons and his ilk leave luka completely off of every all-nba team like they did james harden in 2016. Nope

Most "biased media members" hate James Harden because they recognize him for what he is: an incredibly flawed player who you can't win with if he's your leading man. He doesn't play defense, relies too heavily on getting the benefit of the doubt from refs, he's not a good playmaker and will usually rely on stalling the offense and hoping that his teammates are open for a pass out of a drive.

The problem with Bill Simmons is that he clearly doesn't watch a ton of basketball. Even at his peak, he was like most of us on this board: he specifically watches his favorite team so his knowledge only extends to the team he watches and the biggest stars in the league. Whenever the discussion swerves a little deeper into the depth charts, you can tell Bill is running his mouth about players he hasn't seen. This is no great crime, 90% of the posters here are the same, but Bill isn't some realgm poster, he's a sports journalism demigod. I think he was so appealing back in the day because he was a nerdy fan with a very entertaining writing style, back in an era where NBA journalism was extremely bland. But he never made the transition to real analyst.

Anytime I listen to Bill Simmons nowadays (sometimes I'll listen to his podcast if he has a good guest, or I'll listen to him on the Lowe Post), he'll always spew a half dozen garbage-tier takes. He has this confidence that he's a 1 percenter as a basketball mind, but in reality, nerdy NBA fandom caught up an surpassed him a decade ago. He's just some dude now. A normal nerdy fan that just happens to have 10000x the platform than every other nerdy fan.

The list isn't very good. He doesn't know enough about each of the players he's categorizing. Too many of the people on this list are there for the idea of the player, rather than an understanding of what the player is and therefor what their value might be.

I usually watch as many games as I can of multiple times (mostly because of fantasy basketball), but even then I try my best to stick to the team I pay attention to the most. I'm going to choose not to comment on most of the other players, and just say this: I cannot agree at all with Jarrett Allen's placement on this list. But you could say that about a couple of the players that are in that category too. I don't think anyone would look at what Jarrett Allen did last year and think "this guy is a quality starter" unless they were just going entirely off of stats.

Are you saying his a quality starter?

[CraftylikeaFox]

Jokic is much more dominant in the modern advanced stats than he is in PER. PER is just easier to compare across eras to make a historical comparison. Here's how they rank with the most popular stats from NBA GMs:

DPM: Jokic 5.4 (#5), Luka 3.2 (#20)
EPM: Jokic +9.3 (#1), Luka +4.5 (#17)
LEBRON: Jokic +7.8 (#1), Luka +3.0 (#20)
RAPTOR: Jokic +14.6 (#1), Luka +6.4 (#6)
RAPM: Jokic +3.7 (#3), Luka +0.8 (#120)
BPM: Jokic +13.7 (#1), Luka +8.2 (#4)
RPM: Jokic +11.8 (#1), Luka +6.5 (#9)
WPA: Jokic +7.7 (#2), Luka +3.0 (#70)

Luka isn't close to Joker any possible way that you look at it. Joker consistently doubles his impact. If you look at the modern stats, it's basically:

Jokic
(gap)
Giannis
Embiid
(gap)
Tatum
Curry
LeBron
(gap)

then Luka somewhere in the next group. Jokic is a much better defender, a MUCH better rebounder, is much better at getting other players involved, and he scores more points per 36 on 3 less FGA.

If Luka is that low in these stats - that shows these stats aren't perfect

No stats are perfect, but those were voted the most trusted stats by NBA GMs. The Mavs just weren’t that much better with Luka on the floor than they were with him on the bench this season. The Mavericks were 11.4 points better per 48 with Doncic on the bench than the Nuggets were with Jokic on the bench and yet, with the superstars on the floor, the Nuggets were 4.8 points better.

That’s a pretty huge difference. Some of it is probably noise, sure, but some of it is also that Luka’s still a minus on defense and that he holds the ball SO long that it makes it kind of hard for his teammates to get going. He’s definitely a top 10 player, but he’s not a top 5 player yet. Jokic meanwhile is playing at a top 10 ALL-TIME level.

The Luka haters are easily the worst of any group on this board. Worse than the Kobe is too high or too low on the all time list group. Worse than the Lebron haters. Worse than the group that posts nothing but bad trade ideas and tries to justify them. Worse than the Giannis haters.

No other group goes to such extreme lengths to discredit a player. They will literally try and defend their argument for weeks using every possible metric they can and refuse to give him the littlest amount of credit. For my money, no one’s opinion means less than that group.

[iggymcfrack]

On/off are reflected heavily by teammates. Dallas has a 100million$ PG on the bench to start the season and Luka came in out of shape. Then we moved that 100million$ PG to SG so he can start and we traded for a 19million per PG to come off the bench.

Anecdotally, I think Jokic is more consistent but Luka peaks higher. I've maintained that position for years. When Lukas on his game he make the Mavs extremely dangerous.

It's similar to Kobe (my fav Luka comp fwiw) and Duncan. Duncan game to game is bringing you an A, but Kobe can give you more A+ games and more "duds". In terms of winning a championship I'll take Luka. I actually think Jokic has been better in the regular season, but Luka has been more impressive in the post season.

I think it’s a good comparison in that Duncan and Jokic do a whole bunch of different things on the floor that help you win while also being excellent scorers whereas Luka and Kobe get too focused on all the amazing things they can do with the ball at times at the expense of their complete games. FWIW, Duncan is #3 on my all-time great list and Kobe is #21.

Kobe is 21???

He was never a top 2 player in the league and he didn’t have the top level longevity of a John Stockton who had top 10 impact into his 40s as Kobe wasn’t really an effective player at all after the Achilles tear. I’d put him behind LeBron, Jordan, Duncan, Kareem, Shaq, Hakeem, KG, Curry, D-Rob, CP3, Magic, Giannis, Russell, Wilt, Dirk, Wade, Kawhi, Stockton, Malone, and Bird.

[Ruma85]

I think it’s a good comparison in that Duncan and Jokic do a whole bunch of different things on the floor that help you win while also being excellent scorers whereas Luka and Kobe get too focused on all the amazing things they can do with the ball at times at the expense of their complete games. FWIW, Duncan is #3 on my all-time great list and Kobe is #21.

Kobe is 21???

He was never a top 2 player in the league and he didn’t have the top level longevity of a John Stockton who had top 10 impact into his 40s as Kobe wasn’t really an effective player at all after the Achilles tear. I’d put him behind LeBron, Jordan, Duncan, Kareem, Shaq, Hakeem, KG, Curry, D-Rob, CP3, Magic, Giannis, Russell, Wilt, Dirk, Wade, Kawhi, Stockton, Malone, and Bird.

Your basing this on a achilles tear??

[sp6r=underrated]

Most "biased media members" hate James Harden because they recognize him for what he is: an incredibly flawed player who you can't win with if he's your leading man.

not winning a title =/= "incredibly flawed player"

The Rockets build around Harden had 5 50+ teams, they peaked with a 65 win season and they pushed the Warriors who went 12-1 in the rest of the playoffs 7 games. They weren't losers. They had title caliber teams.

They didn't win a title but that doesn't mean you couldn't win a title around Harden. I have no doubt that if the 2011 finals played out differently you say you could never win a title with Dirk as your leading man.

I don't even like Harden but this critique of him is classic ring counting

[iggymcfrack]

Kobe is 21???

He was never a top 2 player in the league and he didn’t have the top level longevity of a John Stockton who had top 10 impact into his 40s as Kobe wasn’t really an effective player at all after the Achilles tear. I’d put him behind LeBron, Jordan, Duncan, Kareem, Shaq, Hakeem, KG, Curry, D-Rob, CP3, Magic, Giannis, Russell, Wilt, Dirk, Wade, Kawhi, Stockton, Malone, and Bird.

Your basing this on a achilles tear??

I’m just saying that I don’t give him the same credit I give Stockton and Malone for longevity since those were top guys that had a big impact on winning into their age 39/40 seasons whereas Kobe’s last year of being a top 100 player was his age 34 season prior to the injury and after that he was only really useful as a box office attraction and in helping the team tank.

[iggymcfrack]

If Luka is that low in these stats - that shows these stats aren't perfect

No stats are perfect, but those were voted the most trusted stats by NBA GMs. The Mavs just weren’t that much better with Luka on the floor than they were with him on the bench this season. The Mavericks were 11.4 points better per 48 with Doncic on the bench than the Nuggets were with Jokic on the bench and yet, with the superstars on the floor, the Nuggets were 4.8 points better.

That’s a pretty huge difference. Some of it is probably noise, sure, but some of it is also that Luka’s still a minus on defense and that he holds the ball SO long that it makes it kind of hard for his teammates to get going. He’s definitely a top 10 player, but he’s not a top 5 player yet. Jokic meanwhile is playing at a top 10 ALL-TIME level.

The Luka haters are easily the worst of any group on this board. Worse than the Kobe is too high or too low on the all time list group. Worse than the Lebron haters. Worse than the group that posts nothing but bad trade ideas and tries to justify them. Worse than the Giannis haters.

No other group goes to such extreme lengths to discredit a player. They will literally try and defend their argument for weeks using every possible metric they can and refuse to give him the littlest amount of credit. For my money, no one’s opinion means less than that group.

I’m anything but a Luka hater. Dirk was my favorite player of all-time and I’ve always felt a connection with the Mavs. After Luka’s second season I was saying he had a really legit chance to be a top 3 player all-time. I usually root for him when he’s playing. I still think he probably deserves to be #3 on this list for his potential going forward.

I just think people are ignoring some key facts with him. For one, he’s stagnated. He hasn’t improved one iota in either of the last 2 seasons. Also, his impact stats have consistently lagged well behind his box score stats. Finally, the Mavs offense arguably looked the best it did all playoffs when he was hurt and Jalen Brunson was running the show.

I’m not arguing that he’s immensely talented or that he’ll likely win at least 1 MVP and at least 1 rings some day. I just feel people are rushing a little bit to anoint him before he’s earned it. For now, he still some work to do to play at the level of Joel Embiid or Steph Curry or Jayson Tatum. He needs to get all of his teammates involved early in the game instead of just running pick and roll after pick and roll after pick and roll every possession. And with the extra energy he gains from that, he needs to step it up a little bit on D. When he puts all that together, he’ll unlock another level of greatness, but will still probably be behind Giannis and Jokic who are both all-time talents.

[Tempe]

Bill Simmons is fond of referring to players as “assets” and this is another good example


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Ruma85]

No stats are perfect, but those were voted the most trusted stats by NBA GMs. The Mavs just weren’t that much better with Luka on the floor than they were with him on the bench this season. The Mavericks were 11.4 points better per 48 with Doncic on the bench than the Nuggets were with Jokic on the bench and yet, with the superstars on the floor, the Nuggets were 4.8 points better.

That’s a pretty huge difference. Some of it is probably noise, sure, but some of it is also that Luka’s still a minus on defense and that he holds the ball SO long that it makes it kind of hard for his teammates to get going. He’s definitely a top 10 player, but he’s not a top 5 player yet. Jokic meanwhile is playing at a top 10 ALL-TIME level.

The Luka haters are easily the worst of any group on this board. Worse than the Kobe is too high or too low on the all time list group. Worse than the Lebron haters. Worse than the group that posts nothing but bad trade ideas and tries to justify them. Worse than the Giannis haters.

No other group goes to such extreme lengths to discredit a player. They will literally try and defend their argument for weeks using every possible metric they can and refuse to give him the littlest amount of credit. For my money, no one’s opinion means less than that group.

I’m anything but a Luka hater. Dirk was my favorite player of all-time and I’ve always felt a connection with the Mavs. After Luka’s second season I was saying he had a really legit chance to be a top 3 player all-time. I usually root for him when he’s playing. I still think he probably deserves to be #3 on this list for his potential going forward.

I just think people are ignoring some key facts with him. For one, he’s stagnated. He hasn’t improved one iota in either of the last 2 seasons. Also, his impact stats have consistently lagged well behind his box score stats. Finally, the Mavs offense arguably looked the best it did all playoffs when he was hurt and Jalen Brunson was running the show.

I’m not arguing that he’s immensely talented or that he’ll likely win at least 1 MVP and at least 1 rings some day. I just feel people are rushing a little bit to anoint him before he’s earned it. For now, he still some work to do to play at the level of Joel Embiid or Steph Curry or Jayson Tatum. He needs to get all of his teammates involved early in the game instead of just running pick and roll after pick and roll after pick and roll every possession. And with the extra energy he gains from that, he needs to step it up a little bit on D. When he puts all that together, he’ll unlock another level of greatness, but will still probably be behind Giannis and Jokic who are both all-time talents.

On tatum's levem, My god.

[iggymcfrack]

The Luka haters are easily the worst of any group on this board. Worse than the Kobe is too high or too low on the all time list group. Worse than the Lebron haters. Worse than the group that posts nothing but bad trade ideas and tries to justify them. Worse than the Giannis haters.

No other group goes to such extreme lengths to discredit a player. They will literally try and defend their argument for weeks using every possible metric they can and refuse to give him the littlest amount of credit. For my money, no one’s opinion means less than that group.

I’m anything but a Luka hater. Dirk was my favorite player of all-time and I’ve always felt a connection with the Mavs. After Luka’s second season I was saying he had a really legit chance to be a top 3 player all-time. I usually root for him when he’s playing. I still think he probably deserves to be #3 on this list for his potential going forward.

I just think people are ignoring some key facts with him. For one, he’s stagnated. He hasn’t improved one iota in either of the last 2 seasons. Also, his impact stats have consistently lagged well behind his box score stats. Finally, the Mavs offense arguably looked the best it did all playoffs when he was hurt and Jalen Brunson was running the show.

I’m not arguing that he’s immensely talented or that he’ll likely win at least 1 MVP and at least 1 rings some day. I just feel people are rushing a little bit to anoint him before he’s earned it. For now, he still some work to do to play at the level of Joel Embiid or Steph Curry or Jayson Tatum. He needs to get all of his teammates involved early in the game instead of just running pick and roll after pick and roll after pick and roll every possession. And with the extra energy he gains from that, he needs to step it up a little bit on D. When he puts all that together, he’ll unlock another level of greatness, but will still probably be behind Giannis and Jokic who are both all-time talents.

On tatum's levem, My god.

DPM: Tatum 5.6 (3rd), Luka 3.2 (20th)
EPM: Tatum +5.8 (8th), Luka +4.5 (17th)
LEBRON: Tatum +5.1 (5th), Luka +3.0 (20th)
RAPTOR: Tatum +5.9 (9th), Luka +6.4 (6th)
RAPM: Tatum +4.3 (1st), Luka +0.8 (120th)
BPM: Tatum +4.9 (15th), Luka +8.2 (4th)
RPM: Tatum +9.0 (4th), Luka +6.5 (9th)
WPA: Tatum +4.2 (24th), Luka +3.0 (70th)

Celtics with Tatum on floor: +12.1
Mavericks with Luka on floor: +3.6
Mavericks with Luka on bench: +3.4
Celtics with Tatum on bench: -1.7

[TheLand13]

Most "biased media members" hate James Harden because they recognize him for what he is: an incredibly flawed player who you can't win with if he's your leading man.

not winning a title =/= "incredibly flawed player"

The Rockets build around Harden had 5 50+ teams, they peaked with a 65 win season and they pushed the Warriors who went 12-1 in the rest of the playoffs 7 games. They weren't losers. They had title caliber teams.

They didn't win a title but that doesn't mean you couldn't win a title around Harden. I have no doubt that if the 2011 finals played out differently you say you could never win a title with Dirk as your leading man.

I don't even like Harden but this critique of him is classic ring counting

And how well did those 50 win seasons go for Harden? How did he perform when he was tasked with taking on that warriors team after losing Paul to injury? It’s not a matter of ring counting. There was a clear flaw in hardens play style that hindered your ability to win with him.

And dirk at least managed to make the NBA finals before 2011. We had something to at least go off of. There’s nothing to go off of with Harden.

Not to mention, I went on to explain why Harden is an incredibly flawed player without even mentioning rings. Is there a reason you’re ignoring that?

[Ruma85]

I’m anything but a Luka hater. Dirk was my favorite player of all-time and I’ve always felt a connection with the Mavs. After Luka’s second season I was saying he had a really legit chance to be a top 3 player all-time. I usually root for him when he’s playing. I still think he probably deserves to be #3 on this list for his potential going forward.

I just think people are ignoring some key facts with him. For one, he’s stagnated. He hasn’t improved one iota in either of the last 2 seasons. Also, his impact stats have consistently lagged well behind his box score stats. Finally, the Mavs offense arguably looked the best it did all playoffs when he was hurt and Jalen Brunson was running the show.

I’m not arguing that he’s immensely talented or that he’ll likely win at least 1 MVP and at least 1 rings some day. I just feel people are rushing a little bit to anoint him before he’s earned it. For now, he still some work to do to play at the level of Joel Embiid or Steph Curry or Jayson Tatum. He needs to get all of his teammates involved early in the game instead of just running pick and roll after pick and roll after pick and roll every possession. And with the extra energy he gains from that, he needs to step it up a little bit on D. When he puts all that together, he’ll unlock another level of greatness, but will still probably be behind Giannis and Jokic who are both all-time talents.

On tatum's levem, My god.

DPM: Tatum 5.6 (3rd), Luka 3.2 (20th)
EPM: Tatum +5.8 (8th), Luka +4.5 (17th)
LEBRON: Tatum +5.1 (5th), Luka +3.0 (20th)
RAPTOR: Tatum +5.9 (9th), Luka +6.4 (6th)
RAPM: Tatum +4.3 (1st), Luka +0.8 (120th)
BPM: Tatum +4.9 (15th), Luka +8.2 (4th)
RPM: Tatum +9.0 (4th), Luka +6.5 (9th)
WPA: Tatum +4.2 (24th), Luka +3.0 (70th)

Celtics with Tatum on floor: +12.1
Mavericks with Luka on floor: +3.6
Mavericks with Luka on bench: +3.4
Celtics with Tatum on bench: -1.7

Curious do you watch games??

[iggymcfrack]

On tatum's levem, My god.

DPM: Tatum 5.6 (3rd), Luka 3.2 (20th)
EPM: Tatum +5.8 (8th), Luka +4.5 (17th)
LEBRON: Tatum +5.1 (5th), Luka +3.0 (20th)
RAPTOR: Tatum +5.9 (9th), Luka +6.4 (6th)
RAPM: Tatum +4.3 (1st), Luka +0.8 (120th)
BPM: Tatum +4.9 (15th), Luka +8.2 (4th)
RPM: Tatum +9.0 (4th), Luka +6.5 (9th)
WPA: Tatum +4.2 (24th), Luka +3.0 (70th)

Celtics with Tatum on floor: +12.1
Mavericks with Luka on floor: +3.6
Mavericks with Luka on bench: +3.4
Celtics with Tatum on bench: -1.7

Curious do you watch games??

Yep, I sure do. After seeing how the Mavs' offense operated with Brunson and now Luka against the Jazz, it kinda made sense how even such an incredibly talented superstar as Luka might not have optimal impact dribbling the ball for 18 seconds through a million pick and rolls all the time instead of having a more free flowing offense designed to get the ball to all the shooters on the court. That same eye test says that Tatum can lock down at near DPOY-caliber level and is an incredible clutch scorer as well. It all makes sense to me.

[Ruma85]

DPM: Tatum 5.6 (3rd), Luka 3.2 (20th)
EPM: Tatum +5.8 (8th), Luka +4.5 (17th)
LEBRON: Tatum +5.1 (5th), Luka +3.0 (20th)
RAPTOR: Tatum +5.9 (9th), Luka +6.4 (6th)
RAPM: Tatum +4.3 (1st), Luka +0.8 (120th)
BPM: Tatum +4.9 (15th), Luka +8.2 (4th)
RPM: Tatum +9.0 (4th), Luka +6.5 (9th)
WPA: Tatum +4.2 (24th), Luka +3.0 (70th)

Celtics with Tatum on floor: +12.1
Mavericks with Luka on floor: +3.6
Mavericks with Luka on bench: +3.4
Celtics with Tatum on bench: -1.7

Curious do you watch games??

Yep, I sure do. After seeing how the Mavs' offense operated with Brunson and now Luka against the Jazz, it kinda made sense how even such an incredibly talented superstar as Luka might not have optimal impact dribbling the ball for 18 seconds through a million pick and rolls all the time instead of having a more free flowing offense designed to get the ball to all the shooters on the court. That same eye test says that Tatum can lock down at near DPOY-caliber level and is an incredible clutch scorer as well. It all makes sense to me.

If they played that way they would've lost earlier, they didn't have the talent to play that way.

[iggymcfrack]

Curious do you watch games??

Yep, I sure do. After seeing how the Mavs' offense operated with Brunson and now Luka against the Jazz, it kinda made sense how even such an incredibly talented superstar as Luka might not have optimal impact dribbling the ball for 18 seconds through a million pick and rolls all the time instead of having a more free flowing offense designed to get the ball to all the shooters on the court. That same eye test says that Tatum can lock down at near DPOY-caliber level and is an incredible clutch scorer as well. It all makes sense to me.

If they played that way they would've lost earlier, they didn't have the talent to play that way.

I'm not saying that the way they played against the Jazz was better than the way Luka played. I'm just saying that maybe spending soooo much time with the ball in his hands wasn't optimal for Luka to utilize the talent around him and that's why he doesn't impact the game at a top 5 level yet. If he ran a little more varied offense where he worked more to move the ball and get his teammates look early in the game when the other starters are in and he wants to get guys going and then took over playing alongside bench guys and in crunch time, he could be a more impactful player while scoring less.

[NBA4Lyfe]

bill simmons is biased, and like most media members hate james harden

if harden comes out and post a season with a PER of 26 or higher watch at how the media leaves him off all-nba for the third straight year. Draymond is right the players need to take these voting privedleges back from the biased media

if luka doncic posted 29/7/6 but the mavs were an 8th seed would bill simmons and his ilk leave luka completely off of every all-nba team like they did james harden in 2016. Nope

Most "biased media members" hate James Harden because they recognize him for what he is: an incredibly flawed player who you can't win with if he's your leading man. He doesn't play defense, relies too heavily on getting the benefit of the doubt from refs, he's not a good playmaker and will usually rely on stalling the offense and hoping that his teammates are open for a pass out of a drive.

The problem with Bill Simmons is that he clearly doesn't watch a ton of basketball. Even at his peak, he was like most of us on this board: he specifically watches his favorite team so his knowledge only extends to the team he watches and the biggest stars in the league. Whenever the discussion swerves a little deeper into the depth charts, you can tell Bill is running his mouth about players he hasn't seen. This is no great crime, 90% of the posters here are the same, but Bill isn't some realgm poster, he's a sports journalism demigod. I think he was so appealing back in the day because he was a nerdy fan with a very entertaining writing style, back in an era where NBA journalism was extremely bland. But he never made the transition to real analyst.

Anytime I listen to Bill Simmons nowadays (sometimes I'll listen to his podcast if he has a good guest, or I'll listen to him on the Lowe Post), he'll always spew a half dozen garbage-tier takes. He has this confidence that he's a 1 percenter as a basketball mind, but in reality, nerdy NBA fandom caught up an surpassed him a decade ago. He's just some dude now. A normal nerdy fan that just happens to have 10000x the platform than every other nerdy fan.

The list isn't very good. He doesn't know enough about each of the players he's categorizing. Too many of the people on this list are there for the idea of the player, rather than an understanding of what the player is and therefor what their value might be.

I usually watch as many games as I can of multiple times (mostly because of fantasy basketball), but even then I try my best to stick to the team I pay attention to the most. I'm going to choose not to comment on most of the other players, and just say this: I cannot agree at all with Jarrett Allen's placement on this list. But you could say that about a couple of the players that are in that category too. I don't think anyone would look at what Jarrett Allen did last year and think "this guy is a quality starter" unless they were just going entirely off of stats.

Excuses

[NBA4Lyfe]

Most "biased media members" hate James Harden because they recognize him for what he is: an incredibly flawed player who you can't win with if he's your leading man.

not winning a title =/= "incredibly flawed player"

The Rockets build around Harden had 5 50+ teams, they peaked with a 65 win season and they pushed the Warriors who went 12-1 in the rest of the playoffs 7 games. They weren't losers. They had title caliber teams.

They didn't win a title but that doesn't mean you couldn't win a title around Harden. I have no doubt that if the 2011 finals played out differently you say you could never win a title with Dirk as your leading man.

I don't even like Harden but this critique of him is classic ring counting

And how well did those 50 win seasons go for Harden? How did he perform when he was tasked with taking on that warriors team after losing Paul to injury? It’s not a matter of ring counting. There was a clear flaw in hardens play style that hindered your ability to win with him.

And dirk at least managed to make the NBA finals before 2011. We had something to at least go off of. There’s nothing to go off of with Harden.

Not to mention, I went on to explain why Harden is an incredibly flawed player without even mentioning rings. Is there a reason you’re ignoring that?

Luka up this point has just been as good as 2017 harden nowhere as good as prime harden. He is overrated, as his on/off and advanced stats outside of bpm are average

[TheLand13]

not winning a title =/= "incredibly flawed player"

The Rockets build around Harden had 5 50+ teams, they peaked with a 65 win season and they pushed the Warriors who went 12-1 in the rest of the playoffs 7 games. They weren't losers. They had title caliber teams.

They didn't win a title but that doesn't mean you couldn't win a title around Harden. I have no doubt that if the 2011 finals played out differently you say you could never win a title with Dirk as your leading man.

I don't even like Harden but this critique of him is classic ring counting

And how well did those 50 win seasons go for Harden? How did he perform when he was tasked with taking on that warriors team after losing Paul to injury? It’s not a matter of ring counting. There was a clear flaw in hardens play style that hindered your ability to win with him.

And dirk at least managed to make the NBA finals before 2011. We had something to at least go off of. There’s nothing to go off of with Harden.

Not to mention, I went on to explain why Harden is an incredibly flawed player without even mentioning rings. Is there a reason you’re ignoring that?

Luka up this point has just been as good as 2017 harden nowhere as good as prime harden. He is overrated, as his on/off and advanced stats outside of bpm are average

Well considering how Luka is only in his fourth year of basketball and 23 years old, I wouldn't expect him to be at Harden's level in his prime.

But I will say this: Luka in his fourth season took his team to the WCF without any all star caliber player on his team. Harden on the other hand in his entire career has not come close to accomplishing something like that. EDIT: This part is completely wrong. As pointed out by another poster, Harden did in fact do this in 2015. Pretty embarrassing blunder on my part.

If anything, Harden is the massively overrated one. He's got an MVP on his resume that he doesn't deserve, multiple instances of failed basketball and dicking his team over, extremely exploitable holes in his game (granted, so does Luka, but you'd expect that at his age), and no redeemable qualities in the meantime.

[sp6r=underrated]

Well considering how Luka is only in his fourth year of basketball and 23 years old, I wouldn't expect him to be at Harden's level in his prime.

But I will say this: Luka in his fourth season took his team to the WCF without any all star caliber player on his team. Harden on the other hand in his entire career has not come close to accomplishing something like that.

If anything, Harden is the massively overrated one. He's got an MVP on his resume that he doesn't deserve, multiple instances of failed basketball and dicking his team over, extremely exploitable holes in his game (granted, so does Luka, but you'd expect that at his age), and no redeemable qualities in the meantime.

James Harden isn't a perfect player but you're a just straight up hater. By box metrics he is an elite player. By +/- stats he is an elite player. I get you don't like him but you really haven't come close to establishing your case. You claim he's overratted. Give me range of were you think he should fully ranked.

Was he ever top 3 player for a season in your mind?
Was he ever top 5 player for a season in your mind?
Was he ever top 15 player for a season in your mind?