Update: Shams says NY/Utah have began trade discussions for Donovan Mitchell part 3

[whocares1]

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Rose will get slaughtered if he doesn't get this done and he knows it. Utah is gonna eventually make him pony up the assets they're asking for. Sucks, but it is what it is. Rose has locked himself into this deal now. I can't see him walking away no matter what the demands are. This deal has become too public and has become too much of a foregone conclusion by the media and fans.

Imagine if it comes out later that Rose turned it down because of Grimes or Obi, or one of the protected 1sts. He won't be able to live it down.

There's a high percentage of Knicks fans on this board that don't want this deal, but if you polled the millions of 'regular' Knicks fans out there they want Mitchell. This board is not reflective of Knicks fans as a whole. Rose will get crushed if he doesn't close this.

That’s dumb logic. With that logic what’s to stop Ainge for asking for everything? “You gave me Grimes, Obi, and IQ and 5 firsts but I want a 6th first now” “oh and now and you added a 6th first round pick so now I want McBride too.” “Add RJ and we have a deal”

When negotiating you have to draw a line at some point.

[RHODEY]

Rose will get slaughtered if he doesn't get this done and he knows it. Utah is gonna eventually make him pony up the assets they're asking for. Sucks, but it is what it is. Rose has locked himself into this deal now. I can't see him walking away no matter what the demands are. This deal has become too public and has become too much of a foregone conclusion by the media and fans.

Imagine if it comes out later that Rose turned it down because of Grimes or Obi, or one of the protected 1sts. He won't be able to live it down.

There's a high percentage of Knicks fans on this board that don't want this deal, but if you polled the millions of 'regular' Knicks fans out there they want Mitchell. This board is not reflective of Knicks fans as a whole. Rose will get crushed if he doesn't close this.

Utah has no leverage. Mitchell hurts their tank objective. We can afford to wait because no one else is offering what we are in terms of picks. They will still get 2 of IQ, OBI, Grime and that sucks, but they wont get all three.

I hope you're right but I'm fearing the worst with this FO. I'm sure they feel like this is their one chance to be 'heroes' in NY. OF COURSE they're not heroes, but they'll feel like it if they pull this off.

I hear you, but you have to credit them for amassing all these resources. That same forethought would logically dictate that we don't overspend those very same resources.

Remember that Brunson alone probably secures us a playin position.. The Knicks FO might also have a vested interest in maximizing our youngin's trade value before pawning them off. The same goes for Randle. The ESPN shills will always say "You gotta go out an get Mitchell". They are (Please Use More Appropriate Word) and they have an agenda. We need to continue to build the right way and be patient. That includes conducting trades from a position of power. Is this FO desperate....maybe, but I don't think so.

[Fury]

The hell is going on in this thread

Just saw John Carpenter’s “Prince of Darkness.” Green arrow is the green goo satan in the movie

[bearadonisdna]

There are not enough possessions in a basketball game for Donovan Mitchell and the two most inefficient volume scorers in the NBA to all score 20.

Unless - perhaps - one of them comes off the bench, I suppose.

Randle and RJ would need to sacrifice touches and FGAs for the offense to function. 17-18ppg for Randle and 15ppg for RJ would seem like a reasonable number where they can be expected to be reasonably (in)efficient with the decrease in attempts and the improvement in shot quality. Brunson and Mitchell are much better scorers.

There’s enough groundwork out there that proves a big 2 can very much so score 20 ppg.
The 3rd option is the one that usually hovers around 15-18 ppg while scoring 20 sporadically game to game.

You harp a lot of the inefficient play of RJ and Randie but they were apart of a historically bad lineup that included other players .
One of them being one of the worst starting centers in the nba in Mitch Robinson . The Knicks had a league worst interior offense so his efficient scoring meant nothing and theoretically his clogging the lane hurts the efficiency of the higher volume players.

You seem to have a negative outlook which I admit I do too but trying to see silver linings.
As constructed and the best version of this team that would include Mitchell , I see them as a .500 team because the reason they have 1 of the worst starting centers in the league.
By worst I mean a starting center who has never produced a season of positive play as a starter .

So maybe you are right , adding Mitchell only looks good on paper . We have the same destination but got there using different routes.

Then why did Mitch and Burks have better net ratings (even when isolating the games where they started) and on/off numbers than RJ and Randle, if it were about the rest of the historically bad line-up and not about them?

It would seem to suggest that the team was better (or at least not demonstrably worse) when the other teammates were sharing the floor with Mitch and Burks rather than Randle and RJ. Which in my opinion highlights their lack of impact. As scorers, they had the spacing they supposedly needed this year.

We've debated about Mitch before. The best available impact metrics (including RAPM and RAPTOR) that aim to extract contextual noise paint Mitch as an impactful player, and the only starter who was a positive on defense alongside Burks. We can agree to disagree on the eye test as it inevitably involves a level of subjective bias, and by no means am I saying your skepticism is unfounded, but I don't think it's a coincidence that these impact metrics come to the same conclusion. I think it's meaningful.

The team's regression had little to nothing to do with Mitch in my opinion.

Burks is yesterdays news.
Yes I’m aware he was positive as a starter but that has really no bearing on Mitchs weaknesses now or in the future.

Not sure why you think the team ideal spacing . Last years team was DOA so they were behind the 8ball from the get go.

The regression from the center position was Noel having positive play and then now negative play from Mitch so there is every bit of a regression from the position .

[KnicksNext]

Read on Twitter

Rose will get slaughtered if he doesn't get this done and he knows it. Utah is gonna eventually make him pony up the assets they're asking for. Sucks, but it is what it is. Rose has locked himself into this deal now. I can't see him walking away no matter what the demands are. This deal has become too public and has become too much of a foregone conclusion by the media and fans.

Imagine if it comes out later that Rose turned it down because of Grimes or Obi, or one of the protected 1sts. He won't be able to live it down.

There's a high percentage of Knicks fans on this board that don't want this deal, but if you polled the millions of 'regular' Knicks fans out there they want Mitchell. This board is not reflective of Knicks fans as a whole. Rose will get crushed if he doesn't close this.

That’s dumb logic. With that logic what’s to stop Ainge for asking for everything? “You gave me Grimes, Obi, and IQ and 5 firsts but I want a 6th first now” “oh and now and you added a 6th first round pick so now I want McBride too.” “Add RJ and we have a deal”

When negotiating you have to draw a line at some point.

It's terrible negotiating, I agree. We'll see what happens but I feel like Rose knows he has to come through here. So does Ainge.

[Rodimus921]

This what I think happened:

All Editors in chief for Utah,/ NYDaily news/ ESPN/CBS : “I want you sports guy to cover this Knicks and Utah crap and I want you to be the first to break the trade it’s the biggest trade of the summer”. I don’t care what you do or how you do it “ get me some news. And Gtfo out of my office now!!!!!

All Writers/reporters : “ok sir!! Sheesh guess I’m sleeping in my car and sleeping by Utah headquarters. Heard Rose was flying there tomorrow afternoon”


Meanwhile Knicks ………….

Rose”s limo drives up to a Burger King drive thru @ Utah….

Rose: “yeah let me get the uhh number two with no cheese, do you hear me son no cheese !!! I’m lactose thanks . Uhh yeah and a Diet Coke no ice”.

Burger King guy: hey you look familiar are you the Knicks president ??

Rose: yeah yeah yeah that’s me

Burger King guy: “hey Donovan Mitchell is my favorite player of all time you I hope you give us something good back”

Rose ………………..
Rose: “you just better hope my burger is perfect for your sake and no ice you bastard “

Burger King guy : “ did her just called me a bastard??? oh ok I got something for his ass”

Limo driver : uhhhnn Mr rose???? just got a call from Gm Perry he said Ainge meant the meeting for 11am not 3 pm!!

Rose:” **** that means we got 15 minutes . That Ainge trying to **** with me..just give me my whopper!’

Rose inhales whopper , Looks at the last piece , ahhh this twinkle toes put 2x cheese on my burger !!!!

20 minutes later ………. Rose arrives at Utahs camp.

All writers with binoculars…..
Writers:”oh **** this is early
I thought it was for 3pm . O well reports to boss ….. “ Knicks and Utah begins trade talks”

3pm ……. Rose is sweating, stomach rumbling …….

Ainge:” I think I got him so bad I’m making his sweat … “you ok ????

Rose “ hey where’s you facilities??
Ainge your going to have to leave the building go to our hotels because we are fixing our plumbing… sorry boss


Rose:” that Ainge, messing with me again I can’t take it..


Rose is out side looking for a bathroom


News……………. Knicks pulled out early left from negotiations with no trade ….……

Next day

Ring ring , ring ring , ring ring

Rose picks up laying in bed Knicks over his Tums, pepto bismol …Rose:” where’s that phone dammit … uhhhh yeah

Ainge: Rose you left and never came back ??

Rose:” yea I’m a little under the weather.. going to check for covid

Ainge: a little birdie told me you had a little too much cheesy on your whoppie??

Rose:……….. Give me a couple days Ainge with my counter offer , hangs up

Rose runs to toilet “that Ainge is such a
clown

Ainge: let me call Pat Riley I forgot that he knows about this old remedy for Diarrhea for Rose..

Ainge “Hey Woj Yea write that I’m still waiting for a counter offer he left

Ring ring ,

ainge “oh hey mr Pat Riley how you doing??
Sorry Woj I have to take this call.


News……. “ Knicks & Utah can’t seem to agree to terms at the moment will resume in a couple days … “Rose stunned, Backed out from meeting” Ainge talking to Miami !!!!

[Isiahthomass]

Rose will get slaughtered if he doesn't get this done and he knows it. Utah is gonna eventually make him pony up the assets they're asking for. Sucks, but it is what it is. Rose has locked himself into this deal now. I can't see him walking away no matter what the demands are. This deal has become too public and has become too much of a foregone conclusion by the media and fans.

Imagine if it comes out later that Rose turned it down because of Grimes or Obi, or one of the protected 1sts. He won't be able to live it down.

There's a high percentage of Knicks fans on this board that don't want this deal, but if you polled the millions of 'regular' Knicks fans out there they want Mitchell. This board is not reflective of Knicks fans as a whole. Rose will get crushed if he doesn't close this.

That’s dumb logic. With that logic what’s to stop Ainge for asking for everything? “You gave me Grimes, Obi, and IQ and 5 firsts but I want a 6th first now” “oh and now and you added a 6th first round pick so now I want McBride too.” “Add RJ and we have a deal”

When negotiating you have to draw a line at some point.

It's terrible negotiating, I agree. We'll see what happens but I feel like Rose knows he has to come through here. So does Ainge.

I don’t think Rose has any pressure to get this deal done. I’m fine keeping 5 draft picks, RJ, Obi and Grimes if we don’t get Mitchell. I’m sure others would be too.

I’m sure Rose knows he’ll have to give up a lot for Mitchell but Ainge is asking for way too much. Let him sweat it out.

[whocares1]

Rose will get slaughtered if he doesn't get this done and he knows it. Utah is gonna eventually make him pony up the assets they're asking for. Sucks, but it is what it is. Rose has locked himself into this deal now. I can't see him walking away no matter what the demands are. This deal has become too public and has become too much of a foregone conclusion by the media and fans.

Imagine if it comes out later that Rose turned it down because of Grimes or Obi, or one of the protected 1sts. He won't be able to live it down.

There's a high percentage of Knicks fans on this board that don't want this deal, but if you polled the millions of 'regular' Knicks fans out there they want Mitchell. This board is not reflective of Knicks fans as a whole. Rose will get crushed if he doesn't close this.

That’s dumb logic. With that logic what’s to stop Ainge for asking for everything? “You gave me Grimes, Obi, and IQ and 5 firsts but I want a 6th first now” “oh and now and you added a 6th first round pick so now I want McBride too.” “Add RJ and we have a deal”

When negotiating you have to draw a line at some point.

It's terrible negotiating, I agree. We'll see what happens but I feel like Rose knows he has to come through here. So does Ainge.

He shouldn’t be forced to make a trade. If Dolan is forcing this trade then what’s the point of having a POBO or a GM? Let Dolan run the team if he wants it this bad and see how it works out for him. There will be fans obviously upset but there has to be a mutual respect in the deal.

[Knox]

That’s dumb logic. With that logic what’s to stop Ainge for asking for everything? “You gave me Grimes, Obi, and IQ and 5 firsts but I want a 6th first now” “oh and now and you added a 6th first round pick so now I want McBride too.” “Add RJ and we have a deal”

When negotiating you have to draw a line at some point.

It's terrible negotiating, I agree. We'll see what happens but I feel like Rose knows he has to come through here. So does Ainge.

He shouldn’t be forced to make a trade. If Dolan is forcing this trade then what’s the point of having a POBO or a GM? Let Dolan run the team if he wants it this bad and see how it works out for him. There will be fans obviously upset but there has to be a mutual respect in the deal.

Hasn’t Dolan been warned by the nba “unofficially” to stop making a mess of the franchise? I thought for sure he was going to get pressed to sell the team. This would be more incentive to get rid of him. If he runs of Leon rose that would be brutal

[TheDavinciCHODE]

Read on Twitter

Rose will get slaughtered if he doesn't get this done and he knows it. Utah is gonna eventually make him pony up the assets they're asking for. Sucks, but it is what it is. Rose has locked himself into this deal now. I can't see him walking away no matter what the demands are. This deal has become too public and has become too much of a foregone conclusion by the media and fans.

Imagine if it comes out later that Rose turned it down because of Grimes or Obi, or one of the protected 1sts. He won't be able to live it down.

There's a high percentage of Knicks fans on this board that don't want this deal, but if you polled the millions of 'regular' Knicks fans out there they want Mitchell. This board is not reflective of Knicks fans as a whole. Rose will get crushed if he doesn't close this.

That’s dumb logic. With that logic what’s to stop Ainge for asking for everything? “You gave me Grimes, Obi, and IQ and 5 firsts but I want a 6th first now” “oh and now and you added a 6th first round pick so now I want McBride too.” “Add RJ and we have a deal”

When negotiating you have to draw a line at some point.

Yeah, seriously. This is why random people don't run NBA franchises or successful businesses. "Stephen A Smith just said this trade has to go through and will make fun of Rose on TV if he doesn't give 9 picks and 5 rotation players. Gotta do the trade now!".

Unreal how dumb some people are.

[Synciere]

Nope. Nothing weird going on here….

[ctorres]

I hope a trade gets announced by Sham, Woj, or anybody by 6 Am EST on Monday morning. I'm gonna assume we are not gonna see anything announced on Saturday or Sunday if some of the league/team offices are closed on the weekend.

[TheDavinciCHODE]

Rose will get slaughtered if he doesn't get this done and he knows it. Utah is gonna eventually make him pony up the assets they're asking for. Sucks, but it is what it is. Rose has locked himself into this deal now. I can't see him walking away no matter what the demands are. This deal has become too public and has become too much of a foregone conclusion by the media and fans.

Imagine if it comes out later that Rose turned it down because of Grimes or Obi, or one of the protected 1sts. He won't be able to live it down.

There's a high percentage of Knicks fans on this board that don't want this deal, but if you polled the millions of 'regular' Knicks fans out there they want Mitchell. This board is not reflective of Knicks fans as a whole. Rose will get crushed if he doesn't close this.

That’s dumb logic. With that logic what’s to stop Ainge for asking for everything? “You gave me Grimes, Obi, and IQ and 5 firsts but I want a 6th first now” “oh and now and you added a 6th first round pick so now I want McBride too.” “Add RJ and we have a deal”

When negotiating you have to draw a line at some point.

It's terrible negotiating, I agree. We'll see what happens but I feel like Rose knows he has to come through here. So does Ainge.

I really don't think that at all. Has anyone ever said this trade has to be done? I think Dolan has a lot of respect for these guys and so does the rest of the league. Teams are going to test new management of course looking for weakness, but I don't think anyone has ever actually come out and said there's pressure.

That's 100% media hype in my opinion and it always is. People keep saying "you can't rebuild" even though this franchise has torn it down twice in the last 8 seasons and picked in the top 5.

I keep reading that "pressure is on" and hearing talking heads say "the Knicks need to land a star" or "Rose has promised to bring a star"....but when has anyone actually within the team said that? When has Dolan come out and said "we need to trade for so and so" or "I want a max guy ASAP"?

If he has, I haven't seen it. If Rose has said that I haven't seen it. I've seen things like "we'd like to win" or "we're going to be competitive" or " we want to make the playoffs" but I haven't seen any real pressure coming from anyone but the media.

Of course everyone WANTS a star. Who doesn't? I'm sure they've said "we'd love to have so and so" or "we'd love to get an all-nba guy" or something like that. But I have never seen "get me a star now or you're done" or "get me to the finals in 4 seasons or you're done".

I think 99% of this all hype; Rose is too smart for that. I don't think he's going to mortgage the farm for Mitchell. A few young players and 3-4 picks is totally fine for an all-nba guy. The problem is when we start talking 6 picks going into 2027 or 2029 - that's the only major issue imo. Everything else should be on the table.

[thebuzzardman]

There are not enough possessions in a basketball game for Donovan Mitchell and the two most inefficient volume scorers in the NBA to all score 20.

Unless - perhaps - one of them comes off the bench, I suppose.

Randle and RJ would need to sacrifice touches and FGAs for the offense to function. 17-18ppg for Randle and 15ppg for RJ would seem like a reasonable number where they can be expected to be reasonably (in)efficient with the decrease in attempts and the improvement in shot quality. Brunson and Mitchell are much better scorers.

There’s enough groundwork out there that proves a big 2 can very much so score 20 ppg.
The 3rd option is the one that usually hovers around 15-18 ppg while scoring 20 sporadically game to game.

You harp a lot of the inefficient play of RJ and Randie but they were apart of a historically bad lineup that included other players .
One of them being one of the worst starting centers in the nba in Mitch Robinson . The Knicks had a league worst interior offense so his efficient scoring meant nothing and theoretically his clogging the lane hurts the efficiency of the higher volume players.

You seem to have a negative outlook which I admit I do too but trying to see silver linings.
As constructed and the best version of this team that would include Mitchell , I see them as a .500 team because the reason they have 1 of the worst starting centers in the league.
By worst I mean a starting center who has never produced a season of positive play as a starter .

So maybe you are right , adding Mitchell only looks good on paper . We have the same destination but got there using different routes.

Then why did Mitch and Burks have better net ratings (even when isolating the games where they started) and on/off numbers than RJ and Randle, if it were about the rest of the historically bad line-up and not about them?

It would seem to suggest that the team was better (or at least not demonstrably worse) when the other teammates were sharing the floor with Mitch and Burks rather than Randle and RJ. Which in my opinion highlights their lack of impact. As scorers, they had the spacing they supposedly needed this year.

We've debated about Mitch before. The best available impact metrics (including RAPM and RAPTOR) that aim to extract contextual noise paint Mitch as an impactful player, and the only starter who was a positive on defense alongside Burks. We can agree to disagree on the eye test as it inevitably involves a level of subjective bias, and by no means am I saying your skepticism is unfounded, but I don't think it's a coincidence that these impact metrics come to the same conclusion. I think it's meaningful.

The team's regression had little to nothing to do with Mitch in my opinion.

Whew. At least we know Chanel's ok.

[seren]

Shams is credible. No question they have been discussing a trade. Doesn’t mean it will eventually happen. So far Rose didn’t overpay for any trade. I bet the trend continues and either there will be no trade or for something more realistic that doesn’t involve six draft picks and half of our youth

[Reign23]

i love how it was literally a **** warzone here until our beloved lamma showed up telling us he was sick and now it's -



maybe you guys are alright after all ....

(get lots of sleep & feel better lamma!!)

[Reign23]

You need to understand the value of those "1st round picks", though. Since most those picks are from teams other than the Knicks, many are highly protected (some could end up being 2nd round picks due to those protections), others are picks likely in the 20's. It's not like they are a bunch of lottery picks. Trading DM for 6 picks, if they end up being something like; 1 lottery, three later 1st rounders and two 2nd rounders, isn't very good. They need to get Knick unprotected picks & pick swaps, to make the deal worth while, IMO.

The non-Knick picks really aren't as sexy as people want to think they are:

Mavericks first round pick (protected top 10 in 2023-25, else 2025 second round pick)
-- so this one is likely going to be a mid-20's 1st rounder

Nuggets first round pick (protected top 14 in 2023-25, else 2025 second round pick, 2026 second round pick)
-- so this one should be a 1st round pick in the later half of the order, or if the Nugs don't perform well, will be a 2nd rounder

Pistons first round pick (protected top 16 in 2021-22, top 18 in 2023-24, top 13 in 2025, top 11 in 2026, top 9 in 2027, else 2027 second round pick)
-- so this one very-well could end up being a 2nd round pick

Wizards first round pick (protected top 14 in 2023, top 12 in 2024, top 10 in 2025, top 8 in 2026, else 2026 second round pick, 2027 second round pick)
-- so this one looks similar to Pistons, where unless the team gets out of the lottery in the next couple years, it'll be a 2nd round pick (top 8 protected in 2026 could be the best case scenario, if they are in the 9-13 range) One of our Jazz fans posted this and it really shows the real value of some of those picks being talked about. Not really sure this give me hope building with the draft picks only. I can see why Danny is also pushing for couple young players to help rebuild.

fair point

[Reign23]

I am here for about 8 years now and have seen some weird ****, but the last 20 pages are something else.

[spree2kawhi]

I am here for about 8 years now and have seen some weird ****, but the last 20 pages are something else.

Distressing.

[Reign23]

When if ever have the knicks been able to field three 20 ppg scorers?
And then have a good pointguard to run that offense?
Could we be close to having the best or most potent starting lineup in knicks modern era history?
Even the championship team didnt boast that type of production even though it was a better roster with hofers.

knicks 90s team dint have that type of firepower either.
This could arguably be a top 3 or top 5 knick roster of all time i would let some minor issues get in the way

There are not enough possessions in a basketball game for Donovan Mitchell and the two most inefficient volume scorers in the NBA to all score 20.

Unless - perhaps - one of them comes off the bench, I suppose.

Randle and RJ would need to sacrifice touches and FGAs for the offense to function. 17-18ppg for Randle and 15ppg for RJ would seem like a reasonable number where they can be expected to be reasonably (in)efficient with the decrease in attempts and the improvement in shot quality. Brunson and Mitchell are much better scorers.

dakomish, you should have finished him when you had the chance...