Donovan Mitchell Discussion 4

[KnicksGadfly]

the only thing that really works is having an all-time great on your squad. tanking, trading for him, signing him, none of that matters really as much. there's 30 nba teams and around 4 guys who win all the titles every decade.

every once in a while you can throw in a random team like Dallas with Dirk or the Pistons with (billups/rip/wallaces)

But mostly, especially recently, team with top 5 players usually win. Kawhi/LeBron windows seemed to have closed.

You are looking at Curry/Giannis/KD

Then maybe some young guys coming up like Embiid/Jokic/Tatum can do it.

Luka could come close but he has zero supporting cast.

Even if you miss out during the draft on the tier 1 guy, sometimes the draft can help. Lakers were able to make trades to get AD. Cleveland still had Cuckoo Kyrie and traded another guy for Love.

[whocares1]

Y’all better pray a DM deal ships Randle out to another team, because if he’s still here the locker room will be toxic and the team will implode from the bad chemistry

I agree with this but I think if Obi is shipped out it wouldnt be that bad..... I think a lot of Randles issues last year were due to the fact that eery game he had to hear the crowd chant for his backup to come in

Randle's issues are deeper than that and won't be resolved by removing Obi. He'll still be the same self-absorbed brat. If anything, the issues of sharing the spotlight will only get worse with DM and Brunson stealing his thunder. The man is not built for prime time and belongs in a smaller market.

Obi is all prime-time. He feeds off the pressure and is made for the spotlight. It is freaking amazing how many Knicks fans underestimate his star potential. I'm pretty fed up at the rubbish talent evaluation going on here

Obi what just a microscopic reason why Randle had issues last season. He enjoys being the guy on the team. So much so that offense looked night and day when he would sit on the bench. From iso and stagnation to free flowing ball movement. He was mad at fans but it was his effort defensively that fans had problems with more than anything else. Then the temper tantrums on the court with refs, other teams’ players and our guys too.

[FrozenEnvelope]

I think something will happen but it's going to take awhile. You're dealing with two hard headed guys in Rose and especially Ainge. There is no urgency to get this done quickly. I see it going into September and maybe even training camp. Rose just needs to hold firm and not give in. Ainge is not going to find a better offer. Unless some team helps Pat the Rat with extra picks but they just don't have the assets to get this done imo. But I don't want to underestimate Riley. He has a way of getting **** done.

[whocares1]

the only thing that really works is having an all-time great on your squad. tanking, trading for him, signing him, none of that matters really as much. there's 30 nba teams and around 4 guys who win all the titles every decade.

every once in a while you can throw in a random team like Dallas with Dirk or the Pistons with (billups/rip/wallaces)

But mostly, especially recently, team with top 5 players usually win. Kawhi/LeBron windows seemed to have closed.

You are looking at Curry/Giannis/KD

Then maybe some young guys coming up like Embiid/Jokic/Tatum can do it.

Luka could come close but he has zero supporting cast.

Even if you miss out during the draft on the tier 1 guy, sometimes the draft can help. Lakers were able to make trades to get AD. Cleveland still had Cuckoo Kyrie and traded another guy for Love.

Yup and they traded number one pick Andrew Wiggins to acquire Kevin Love. No matter how you look at it..tanking is always valuable.

[mpharris36]

i'm talking to myself now but who are gonna be the favorites next year ? curry. giannis, kawhi and whatever team has durant. and maybe lebron if the lakers make some good moves. it's all the same guys until they age out and then it'll be 3 new guys replacing them for the next 10 years.

Its the way of the NBA....unless the knicks make an effort to be bad for 3-5 year windown and take multiple changes at the top of the draft being a championship contender likely isn't in our cards. So if we don't trade for Mitchell, whats the plan after that...wait for another player very close to mitchell talent and age to ask out and trade a similar package for them, and hope they want to come to NY too?

people are like wait for the next guy who's better than him....it was 10 years ago the last time an all-star wanted to come here at all. it's as rare as melo eating a salad for lunch.

The knicks refuse to bottom out. (and I don't mean 1 year have a random tank year)...the lottery is too all over the place and the luck is too random to try to rebuild in 1 year.

You get Mitchell you hope you are a good playoff team...maybe make some noise. And then you hope the RJ and Randle and whatever young kids you keep in the deal increase there value from playing with Brunson/Mitchell so that you can send those guys with a couple of the remaining picks you have for an actual piece.

Maybe that guy might want to come if he's sees Brunson and Mithcell playing really well and maybe RJ EFF goes up where someone takes a chance on him in a trade.

[Meat]

and maybe they figure out some way to get the next star 2 or 3 years from now or so. probably not but who knows. truth is, very few guys win titles at all. you usually need one of the best players of all time on your squad. look at the past 11 years. it's all bron or curry, with or without durant, with 1 giannis win and 2 for kawhi. that's it. 2 (or 3) guys won 8 titles and the other 2 won 3. what's the alternative right now ? pick 10th through 14th again. if we even keep the pick ? just another wasted year where nothing is accomplished.

i'm talking to myself now but who are gonna be the favorites next year ? curry. giannis, kawhi and whatever team has durant. and maybe lebron if the lakers make some good moves. it's all the same guys until they age out and then it'll be 3 new guys replacing them for the next 10 years.

While I agree with you, it does need to be said that 3 of those guys essentially came out of nowhere - Kawhi, Curry and Giannis were never expected to be that guy.

the last "that guy" that won the ring for his team not named lebron was Duncan,and then shaq before that it's generally always out of nowhere guys

[Deeeez Knicks]

They didn’t tank bc the Nets got KD and Kyrie. If they had gone anywhere else we would’ve been in a better position. But Dolan cares about the business aspect first over building a winner.

The Knicks thought they were getting KD and Mills sold Dolan on that plan. Dolan was bragging on the radio that the Knicks were signing stars. No matter where KD and Kyrie signed, there was no turning back. Knicks were going to try to play the cards they had no matter what, instead of just accepting that they had bad cards and folding like they should have. It was all pretty ridiculous and sad.

I mean maybe. I’m just saying that there’s never a 100% chance a star signs with you even if the Knicks felt strongly about it. Especially with temperamental attitudes like KD and Kyrie. The big point is that Dolan forced Walsh to make the Melo trade likely bc his direct competitors in the market were trying to get him. It’s not crazy to think that them going to Brooklyn forced the Knicks to try to compete bc they would be the new city attraction.

If it was say Miami going after Melo instead of the Nets back then, I think Dolan still meddles and makes the deal for Melo. Maybe they are a little less desperate but think they still make that deal. No doubt there's a rivalry with the local market and Dolan does not want to take a back seat. Its also pretty clear that the Knicks still are far more popular then the Nets, even when the Nets have the stars.

[mpharris36]

the only thing that really works is having an all-time great on your squad. tanking, trading for him, signing him, none of that matters really as much. there's 30 nba teams and around 4 guys who win all the titles every decade.

every once in a while you can throw in a random team like Dallas with Dirk or the Pistons with (billups/rip/wallaces)

But mostly, especially recently, team with top 5 players usually win. Kawhi/LeBron windows seemed to have closed.

You are looking at Curry/Giannis/KD

Then maybe some young guys coming up like Embiid/Jokic/Tatum can do it.

Luka could come close but he has zero supporting cast.

Even if you miss out during the draft on the tier 1 guy, sometimes the draft can help. Lakers were able to make trades to get AD. Cleveland still had Cuckoo Kyrie and traded another guy for Love.

yeah but most of those lakers picks were still top 5 type picks. Ball/Ingram those weren't bums...Ingram would be our best player right now.

[DaGawd]

the only thing that really works is having an all-time great on your squad. tanking, trading for him, signing him, none of that matters really as much. there's 30 nba teams and around 4 guys who win all the titles every decade.

Yep. I look at Mitchell as a possible stepping stone to drawing and attracting one of those types here

[god shammgod]

and maybe they figure out some way to get the next star 2 or 3 years from now or so. probably not but who knows. truth is, very few guys win titles at all. you usually need one of the best players of all time on your squad. look at the past 11 years. it's all bron or curry, with or without durant, with 1 giannis win and 2 for kawhi. that's it. 2 (or 3) guys won 8 titles and the other 2 won 3. what's the alternative right now ? pick 10th through 14th again. if we even keep the pick ? just another wasted year where nothing is accomplished.

i'm talking to myself now but who are gonna be the favorites next year ? curry. giannis, kawhi and whatever team has durant. and maybe lebron if the lakers make some good moves. it's all the same guys until they age out and then it'll be 3 new guys replacing them for the next 10 years.

While I agree with you, it does need to be said that 3 of those guys essentially came out of nowhere - Kawhi, Curry and Giannis were never expected to be that guy.

so keep the picks and hope to get lucky at 12th or something ? that's not really a plan and more like a prayer . plus i've seen them draft. we kept all the picks for the last 5 years, they were all in the lottery, and we got maybe 1 starter who i won't get even into if he's even worthy of being one

[HEZI]

The best team wins the championship

This whole top 1 guy top 3 guy crap is bogus. These things change year to year depending on a players success that year. Steph Curry wasn’t in top 10 player in the league convos until he won a title and beat Lebron then folks took him real serious. Nobody took the Warriors that serious before then. Kawhi didn’t become a top player until the Duncan, Manu, Parker era came to an end and they gave Kawhi a bigger role. James Harden was a 6th man turned into MVP after leaving OKC.

Player rankings change year to year depending on the players situations they are in. Butler evolved into a top player now that he’s shown he can lead the Heat after failing to lead Chicago anywhere. These things change but what doesn’t ever change is the best team that year wins a championship and not the best player in the league.

[Gravy]

the only thing that really works is having an all-time great on your squad. tanking, trading for him, signing him, none of that matters really as much. there's 30 nba teams and around 4 guys who win all the titles every decade.

Those guys still have to end up on great teams. Curry never won without Draymond and Klay, Lebron never won without another hof player, KD never won without Curry, Kawhi needed a really good Raptors team. Maybe Giannis is the closest to winning with a mid team. If Kawhi is on the Knicks of the last 5 years we dont win anything.

[NoDopeOnSundays]

i'm talking to myself now but who are gonna be the favorites next year ? curry. giannis, kawhi and whatever team has durant. and maybe lebron if the lakers make some good moves. it's all the same guys until they age out and then it'll be 3 new guys replacing them for the next 10 years.

While I agree with you, it does need to be said that 3 of those guys essentially came out of nowhere - Kawhi, Curry and Giannis were never expected to be that guy.

so keep the picks and hope to get lucky at 12th or something ? that's not really a plan and more like a prayer . plus i've seen them draft. we kept all the picks for the last 5 years, they were all in the lottery, and we got maybe 1 starter who i won't get even into if he's even worthy of being one

Just keep building, what exactly is the rush at this point? We haven't been good for so long, lets rush into a team build that wont have staying power and wont be a contender, but at least it'll give us 2 second round exits at best.

We have enough picks that one of them is eventually going to hit, I think this front office has done a good job drafting so far. You think the Pacers wish they could take back the George Hill for Kawhi trade?

[god shammgod]

the only thing that really works is having an all-time great on your squad. tanking, trading for him, signing him, none of that matters really as much. there's 30 nba teams and around 4 guys who win all the titles every decade.

Those guys still have to end up on great teams. Curry never won without Draymond and Klay, Lebron never won without another hof player, KD never won without Curry, Kawhi needed a really good Raptors team. Maybe Giannis is the closest to winning with a mid team. If Kawhi is on the Knicks of the last 5 years we dont win anything.

of course but without that guy none of the rest matters

[3toheadmelo]

Anything new today or was bigmike a fraud

[Fury]

Regardless. The logic is that tanking increases your chances of picking a superstar talent. A homegrown superstar player is needed according to every single championship for the past two decades. The Knicks currently do not have one. You could argue and say that Steph at #7 isn’t tanking. But two of their 4 championships were with a #2 Draft pick. And the first one they got can be argued that it could’ve done differently if the #1 draft pick from the other team stayed healthy.

If the Warriors are your only example (not a great one), then it’s clear that tanking hasn’t yielded much success.

Spurs? Miami? Cleveland? Lakers? All won chips with a Top 5 draft pick and more. The only exception is really the Bucks.

Just the Spurs. You say top 5 picks but most of them got them through trades. The Heat didn’t really tank and the Cavs did but LeBron didn’t win on the first go around. That’s all you got.

[Fury]

the only thing that really works is having an all-time great on your squad. tanking, trading for him, signing him, none of that matters really as much. there's 30 nba teams and around 4 guys who win all the titles every decade.

It does matter. The only team that won a championship without a drafted star was the Lakers and they traded the players they tanked for to get one.

But an overwhelming majority of those drafted stars weren’t drafted through tanking

[knicksstuff]

Y’all better pray a DM deal ships Randle out to another team, because if he’s still here the locker room will be toxic and the team will implode from the bad chemistry

I agree with this but I think if Obi is shipped out it wouldnt be that bad..... I think a lot of Randles issues last year were due to the fact that eery game he had to hear the crowd chant for his backup to come in

Randle's issues are deeper than that and won't be resolved by removing Obi. He'll still be the same self-absorbed brat. If anything, the issues of sharing the spotlight will only get worse with DM and Brunson stealing his thunder. The man is not built for prime time and belongs in a smaller market.

Obi is all prime-time. He feeds off the pressure and is made for the spotlight. It is freaking amazing how many Knicks fans underestimate his star potential. I'm pretty fed up at the rubbish talent evaluation going on here

oh im 100% with you on Obi .... he makes the players around him better we saw that to end the year and he did the same in college

[Deeeez Knicks]

None of the all-time greats are coming here unless you already have a good core. That would be the hope with Mitchell. Maybe other stars would eventually want to team up if he is here already and then you figure out a way to do it. That is why the price is steep, but may be worth it if we can pull off the right moves afterwards.

[KnixinSix]

Read on Twitter

Don’t know who this is but take it with a grain of salt.

If this is accurate ....language like this USUALLY means much of the framework of the deal has been agreed to with a minor piece or two needing to be tweaked/ironed out. If they are both pushing hard we could see this happen pretty soon. Again we are assuming this is actually credible info here.