Little Swaggy: The Kelly Oubre Jr Thread

[fatlever]

Offensively he was 5th in fga, 3rd in fga per 36. Compared to 5th in scoring and 3rd in scoring per 36 (Excluded IT, because of lack of GP). Swear the way some of you talk he attempts 30 shots per game in 15 mpg.

He averaged 15 ppg on 54% EFG
Whereas Martin was 7.7 ppg on 55% EFG
McDaniels was 6.2 ppg on 56% EFG.

If you think they both can double their production and not see a large drop off in efficiency then maybe they are the answer, I just don't think either is very good on offense and would be exposed if they had to be a main offensive cog.

I'm convinced you only watch one half of the court.
Your justification for oubre over Cody always comes back to.... but oubre scores more points.

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[yosemiteben]

My point is that if Oubre shoots less like everyone wants, then someone has to shoot more... So who is taking all these shots if it is not McDaniels and Martin?

I would have preferred Malik Monk

Honestly the issue for me is less Oubre shooting so much in a void and more his complete lack of court awareness or ball movement. He's a ball stopper in a movement heavy offense - if he moved the ball more, I wouldn't care as much if he took a lot of shots.

He's the polar opposite of the "trust that the ball will come back to you" mantra.

[JMAC3]

My main point is I think based on current roster, Kelly Oubre is a necessary evil because we do not have enough scoring options off the bench.

If you are going to play McDaniels and Martin together they need to have 3 really good scorers on the court with them. Which is very difficult with our team because we have no offensive centers on the roster. That is why Harrell was nice, because even though he had his warts he could be a scorer at that position and allowed us to get more defense on the court at other positions.

What 5 man bench unit has enough scoring that you don't need Oubre? Assume you can't use more than 1 starter with the bench unit.

[fatlever]

Offensively he was 5th in fga, 3rd in fga per 36. Compared to 5th in scoring and 3rd in scoring per 36 (Excluded IT, because of lack of GP). Swear the way some of you talk he attempts 30 shots per game in 15 mpg.

He averaged 15 ppg on 54% EFG
Whereas Martin was 7.7 ppg on 55% EFG
McDaniels was 6.2 ppg on 56% EFG.

If you think they both can double their production and not see a large drop off in efficiency then maybe they are the answer, I just don't think either is very good on offense and would be exposed if they had to be a main offensive cog.

Oubres career ts% is 54.2%. Its a bad thing that he was 3rd on the team in fga per 36. Thats the point. Its bad that a 33% career 3pt shooter was taking 3s at the highest rate of anyone on the team. He shouldn't be given the opportunity to be taking a bunch of shots on an NBA team that is trying to win because hes not a good shooter or scorer at this level.

No one thinks Martin and McDaniels wouldn't drop in efficiency if the doubled their shooting rate. I don't see what your point is. If they doubled how often they were taking shots it would be a bad thing for the same reason its bad for Oubre to be taking that many shots (because they are not good shooters or scorers). They are on the court for defense, which isn't the case for Oubre because hes even worse on defense than offense. If Martin and McDaniels stopped trying on defense and started jacking up shots every time they got the ball then they wouldn't be playable.

My point is that if Oubre shoots less like everyone wants, then someone has to shoot more. Even more now that we don't have Miles. So who is taking all these shots if it is not McDaniels and Martin?

I am all for putting out guys that can play defense, but they have to be able to score too. We can't have a lineup of Rozier, Martin, McDaniels, Thor and Mark Williams just out there playing defense and then everyone on other end of the floor scared to look at the rim other than Terry.

I'm fine with oubre shooting... good shots. We will need his scoring. It's more about his shot selection. He takes bad shots. He should be driving to the rim and taking 3s within the flow of offense. He does neither. He just shoots as soon as he gets a pass with no context of game situation, spacing, clock or defense.

Again, he's frustrating because he has loads of talent, but his negatives are all fixable. He's definition of empty stats, low IQ, selfish player.

Cody is the opposite. All effort, coachable, team first.



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[JMAC3]

[I'm convinced you only watch one half of the court.
Your justification for oubre over Cody always comes back to.... but oubre scores more points.

I think Martin is an easy choice over Oubre if the lineup was Melo, Rozier, Miles and a center... you don't need Oubre scoring and its fine to have Martin as defender glue guy.

I am talking more as a bench unit. I will ask again. Assuming our starters are Ball, Rozier, Hayward, PJ and Plumlee.

What 5 man bench unit has enough scoring if you exclude Oubre and can only use 1 starter?

[fatlever]

My main point is I think based on current roster, Kelly Oubre is a necessary evil because we do not have enough scoring options off the bench.

If you are going to play McDaniels and Martin together they need to have 3 really good scorers on the court with them. Which is very difficult with our team because we have no offensive centers on the roster. That is why Harrell was nice, because even though he had his warts he could be a scorer at that position and allowed us to get more defense on the court at other positions.

What 5 man bench unit has enough scoring that you don't need Oubre? Assume you can't use more than 1 starter with the bench unit.

No. Players like oubre are never a necessary evil. It's never justifiable to be a selfish, ball stopping chucker, just because you can.

Don't make excuses for his awful habits. He needs to do better. Period.

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[fatlever]

[I'm convinced you only watch one half of the court.
Your justification for oubre over Cody always comes back to.... but oubre scores more points.

I think Martin is an easy choice over Oubre if the lineup was Melo, Rozier, Miles and a center... you don't need Oubre scoring and its fine to have Martin as defender glue guy.

I am talking more as a bench unit. I will ask again. Assuming our starters are Ball, Rozier, Hayward, PJ and Plumlee.

What 5 man bench unit has enough scoring if you exclude Oubre and can only use 1 starter?

Stagger the main scorers. Hopefully bouk picks it up and other younsters also improve.

And with all that said, I'd still have oubre in my rotation given our roster, but I'd have zero tolerance for his bad habits that are correctable. Maybe cliff can get thru to him.

There is a reason the Golden State Warriors wanted him off that team asap. He was the antithesis of how they play basketball, smart high IQ team oriented basketball.

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[fatlever]

Also, part of the problem with Kelly is that he sees himself as a starter who should be averaging 20 points a game, playing 35 minutes. He does not view himself as a bench guy who comes in and tries to get hot.

He has no self-awareness

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[yosemiteben]

Rozier Martin McDaniels PJ Harrell had more than enough scoring. Completely disagree with the take of "Oubre had to be a chucker."

[GoBobs]

He earned his money. There were a few times last year when nobody had ever been hotter than Kelly was right then. If he takes a small step in efficiency he becomes a very good player. Happy to have him on the team.

[JMAC3]

Rozier Martin McDaniels PJ Harrell had more than enough scoring. Completely disagree with the take of "Oubre had to be a chucker."

https://www.nba.com/stats/lineups/advanced/?Season=2021-22&SeasonType=Regular%20Season&TeamID=1610612766&sort=MIN&dir=1

Can you send me which page that lineup is on? How many total minutes was that lineup on the court?

[JMAC3]

Rozier Martin McDaniels PJ Harrell had more than enough scoring. Completely disagree with the take of "Oubre had to be a chucker."

https://www.nba.com/stats/lineups/advanced/?Season=2021-22&SeasonType=Regular%20Season&TeamID=1610612766&sort=MIN&dir=1

Can you send me which page that lineup is on? How many total minutes was that lineup on the court?

I actually just looked and that lineup never played together last year for even 1 min.

Also, we don't have a skilled scoring big like Harrell on this roster, so a moot point anyways.

If Clifford is going to play 9man rotation, we more than likely are going to have to play a lineup with 4 reserves together at some point throughout the game for a few minute stretch during each half. Again, I am open to solution but nobody has really been able to give a real example other than just a vague stagger starters type of response.

[JMAC3]

Also, part of the problem with Kelly is that he sees himself as a starter who should be averaging 20 points a game, playing 35 minutes. He does not view himself as a bench guy who comes in and tries to get hot.

He has no self-awareness

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I mean at the same time, for 12.6 Million he is a pretty good scorer with size that regardless of the issues he has is still a pretty good valuable rotation piece. I am more so talking to the posters that said to cut Oubre outright, bench him completely etc..

If your opinion is that he should play, but just play better than again I will circle back to he is a bench player who makes 12.6 million and can give you 15-20 per night. How much better player are you expecting?

Clarkson, Herro, Poole, Cole Anthony, Monk, Malik Beasley... these are all guys that Oubre falls in line of being a scorer and a mediocre to bad defender depending who ask. If you are expecting Oubre to be a 2 way wing that averages 15 ppg and gives you plus defense then that player is going to cost a lot more 90% of the time.

[yosemiteben]

Rozier Martin McDaniels PJ Harrell had more than enough scoring. Completely disagree with the take of "Oubre had to be a chucker."

https://www.nba.com/stats/lineups/advanced/?Season=2021-22&SeasonType=Regular%20Season&TeamID=1610612766&sort=MIN&dir=1

Can you send me which page that lineup is on? How many total minutes was that lineup on the court?

I don't know what you want from me. You asked what lineup with one starter could score and I gave you one.

Feels like you're trying pretty hard to miss the point that everyone is making here.

ETA: here is Oubre's minutes played by 5 man lineup.

https://www.nba.com/stats/lineups/advanced/?Season=2021-22&SeasonType=Regular%20Season&TeamID=1610612766&sort=MIN&dir=1&CF=GROUP_NAME*E*Oubre

Most of the time Oubre is on the floor with 3+ starters. Your argument that he played with all bench guys and had to shoot just isn't accurate.

[MasterIchiro]

Oubre is the worst kind of basketball player regardless of any pecking order requiring him to fire up any given number of shots.

My qualm with him is that, shooting aside, he does nothing on the basketball court to make his teammates better. He's a terrible passer, poor facilitator/ball mover, catastrophic dribbler who should never handle on the fast break.

He's just all around a tunnel vision type of scorer and those guys need to be elite. When you ignore the rest of the team and can't set teammates up for success, you need to have a higher kill rate. Oubre fashions himself an assassin but he's really just a minus player in the skills department trapped in a plus athlete's body.

Nobody here has provided rationale for how a player who can't dribble nor pass fits in a ball movement system like ours.

Oubre needs to go to a stationary team that plays through the paint like the Sixers. They seem to be able to get clean looks for perimeter snipers. Heat would be a good spot for him.

I'm shocked he's back here.

[JMAC3]

Rozier Martin McDaniels PJ Harrell had more than enough scoring. Completely disagree with the take of "Oubre had to be a chucker."

I don't know what you want from me. You asked what lineup with one starter could score and I gave you one.

Feels like you're trying pretty hard to miss the point that everyone is making here.

You gave me a lineup based off last years team, that never even stepped on court together...Also, I am asking for a lineup for this season and I feel like you know that.

PJ, Rozier are both starters and Harrell is no longer on the team, so wasn't close to meeting the requirement.

but I will drop it because it seems like an impossible task to build one that makes sense for this upcoming season.

[yosemiteben]

Rozier Martin McDaniels PJ Harrell had more than enough scoring. Completely disagree with the take of "Oubre had to be a chucker."

I don't know what you want from me. You asked what lineup with one starter could score and I gave you one.

Feels like you're trying pretty hard to miss the point that everyone is making here.

You gave me a lineup based off last years team, that never even stepped on court together...Also, I am asking for a lineup for this season and I feel like you know that.

PJ, Rozier are both starters and Harrell is no longer on the team, so wasn't close to meeting the requirement.

but I will drop it because it seems like an impossible task to build one that makes sense for this upcoming season.

Reposting my edit in case you missed it.

Here is Oubre's minutes played by 5 man lineup.

https://www.nba.com/stats/lineups/advanced/?Season=2021-22&SeasonType=Regular%20Season&TeamID=1610612766&sort=MIN&dir=1&CF=GROUP_NAME*E*Oubre

Most of the time Oubre is on the floor with 3+ starters. Your argument that he played with all bench guys and had to shoot just isn't accurate.

[JMAC3]

Rozier Martin McDaniels PJ Harrell had more than enough scoring. Completely disagree with the take of "Oubre had to be a chucker."

I don't know what you want from me. You asked what lineup with one starter could score and I gave you one.

Feels like you're trying pretty hard to miss the point that everyone is making here.

You gave me a lineup based off last years team, that never even stepped on court together...Also, I am asking for a lineup for this season and I feel like you know that.

PJ, Rozier are both starters and Harrell is no longer on the team, so wasn't close to meeting the requirement.

but I will drop it because it seems like an impossible task to build one that makes sense for this upcoming season.

Reposting my edit in case you missed it.

Here is Oubre's minutes played by 5 man lineup.

https://www.nba.com/stats/lineups/advanced/?Season=2021-22&SeasonType=Regular%20Season&TeamID=1610612766&sort=MIN&dir=1&CF=GROUP_NAME*E*Oubre

Most of the time Oubre is on the floor with 3+ starters. Your argument that he played with all bench guys and had to shoot just isn't accurate.

That isn't true. Oubre played 2000 minutes. Just because his most common lineups were with the starters, doesn't mean that was his majority of minutes those made up probably less than 400 of his minutes played. There are tons of minutes where he is playing with 2-3 other bench players. I am not going to go through and list every single one of them but there are a lot of lineups listed where that is the case.

You also need to realize PJ came off the bench for 70% of last season, so majority of time you see him and Oubre listed together it was both coming off bench.

[yosemiteben]

You gave me a lineup based off last years team, that never even stepped on court together...Also, I am asking for a lineup for this season and I feel like you know that.

PJ, Rozier are both starters and Harrell is no longer on the team, so wasn't close to meeting the requirement.

but I will drop it because it seems like an impossible task to build one that makes sense for this upcoming season.

Reposting my edit in case you missed it.

Here is Oubre's minutes played by 5 man lineup.

https://www.nba.com/stats/lineups/advanced/?Season=2021-22&SeasonType=Regular%20Season&TeamID=1610612766&sort=MIN&dir=1&CF=GROUP_NAME*E*Oubre

Most of the time Oubre is on the floor with 3+ starters. Your argument that he played with all bench guys and had to shoot just isn't accurate.

That isn't true. Oubre played 2000 minutes. Just because his most common lineups were with the starters, doesn't mean that was his majority of minutes those made up probably less than 400 of his minutes played. There are tons of minutes where he is playing with 2-3 other bench players.

That first page is way more than 400 minutes - the first 6 lines gets you up to 400. Kind of a lazy critique there, the lineup data is right there and it is very easy to see who was in them and how much they played. Feels like you're being pretty eyes wide shut on this.

What those 5 man lineups tell me is Oubre spent the majority of his time on the floor with at least one and usually more than one of our other primary scorers - Melo, Miles, Rozier, Hayward.

You need to either give up the argument that Oubre had to score because no one else on the floor with him could or you need to address the fact that he spent most of his time on the floor with other primary scorers.

[fatlever]

You gave me a lineup based off last years team, that never even stepped on court together...Also, I am asking for a lineup for this season and I feel like you know that.

PJ, Rozier are both starters and Harrell is no longer on the team, so wasn't close to meeting the requirement.

but I will drop it because it seems like an impossible task to build one that makes sense for this upcoming season.

Reposting my edit in case you missed it.

Here is Oubre's minutes played by 5 man lineup.

https://www.nba.com/stats/lineups/advanced/?Season=2021-22&SeasonType=Regular%20Season&TeamID=1610612766&sort=MIN&dir=1&CF=GROUP_NAME*E*Oubre

Most of the time Oubre is on the floor with 3+ starters. Your argument that he played with all bench guys and had to shoot just isn't accurate.

You also need to realize PJ came off the bench for 70% of last season, so majority of time you see him and Oubre listed together it was both coming off bench.

57% to be exact


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