Trade Ideas

[JonFromVA]

Throwing **** against the wall here... if the overlying concern with Sexton is that he will not accept a sixth man role, what about getting involved in one of these rumored trades, where we send out Sexton and Love, and end up with Westbrook + compensation. Russ buys in, wins sixth man of the year, Cavs maintain future cap flexibility.

I see Sexton as trying to prove there's a team that would/should start him and pay him starting money, whereas Westbrook has already proven this and someone would have to somehow convince him to accept another role. If Collin takes the QO, his next contract will depend on him demonstrating his value and for that he needs PT not controversy.

Anyway, if we're giving up talent our moves should by more synced up with our core. From the Lakers POV, I'm doubt they'd want to lock salary in to Collin or give up that pick without a commitment from James.

[jbk1234]

Throwing **** against the wall here... if the overlying concern with Sexton is that he will not accept a sixth man role, what about getting involved in one of these rumored trades, where we send out Sexton and Love, and end up with Westbrook + compensation. Russ buys in, wins sixth man of the year, Cavs maintain future cap flexibility.

I see Sexton as trying to prove there's a team that would/should start him and pay him starting money, whereas Westbrook has already proven this and someone would have to somehow convince him to accept another role. If Collin takes the QO, his next contract will depend on him demonstrating his value and for that he needs PT not controversy.

Anyway, if we're giving up talent our moves should by more synced up with our core. From the Lakers POV, I'm doubt they'd want to lock salary in to Collin or give up that pick without a commitment from James.

The proposal on the T&T board has Sexton to the Nets, Love and Kyrie to the Lakers, with Westbrook and picks going to the Cavs. The pick package is generous, too generous for the Lakers to actually offer it IMO. The Lakers problem isn't just this season, it's the seasons that follow.

Do they want to be without control over their 1st round picks for 7 full years going forward so they can build a team around AD, who can't stay healthy, a 38-year old LBJ on a fully guaranteed, multi-year contract, Kyrie on the same, and no cap space? That's the best case scenario. An alternative scenario is that things don't work out, LBJ and Kyrie bolt after this season, and they're overpaying guys like GTJ and Wiggins to play with AD. Worse case scenario is that AD gets hurt again, LBJ and Kyrie bolt, and they're back to overpaying guys like Deng and Mozgov because good free agents don't trust AD's ability to stay healthy and anchor a good team.

[JonFromVA]

Throwing **** against the wall here... if the overlying concern with Sexton is that he will not accept a sixth man role, what about getting involved in one of these rumored trades, where we send out Sexton and Love, and end up with Westbrook + compensation. Russ buys in, wins sixth man of the year, Cavs maintain future cap flexibility.

I see Sexton as trying to prove there's a team that would/should start him and pay him starting money, whereas Westbrook has already proven this and someone would have to somehow convince him to accept another role. If Collin takes the QO, his next contract will depend on him demonstrating his value and for that he needs PT not controversy.

Anyway, if we're giving up talent our moves should by more synced up with our core. From the Lakers POV, I'm doubt they'd want to lock salary in to Collin or give up that pick without a commitment from James.

The proposal on the T&T board has Sexton to the Nets, Love and Kyrie to the Lakers, with Westbrook and picks going to the Cavs. The pick package is generous, too generous for the Lakers to actually offer it IMO. The Lakers problem isn't just this season, it's the seasons that follow.

Do they want to be without control over their 1st round picks for 7 full years going forward so they can build a team around AD, who can't stay healthy, a 38-year old LBJ on a fully guaranteed, multi-year contract, Kyrie on the same, and no cap space? That's the best case scenario. An alternative scenario is that things don't work out, LBJ and Kyrie bolt after this season, and they're overpaying guys like GTJ and Wiggins to play with AD. Worse case scenario is that AD gets hurt again, LBJ and Kyrie bolt, and they're back to overpaying guys like Deng and Mozgov because good free agents don't trust AD's ability to stay healthy and anchor a good team.

Presumably why the Lakers seem to actually care about commitment for a change. If all it took was being willing to max Kyrie to get LeBron to commit, then perhaps they'd trade those picks.

Of course if Pelinka is using his crystal ball (collusion) he should have a good idea who would or would not be willing to sign with or force a trade to the Lakers if they create the cap space.

[jbk1234]

I see Sexton as trying to prove there's a team that would/should start him and pay him starting money, whereas Westbrook has already proven this and someone would have to somehow convince him to accept another role. If Collin takes the QO, his next contract will depend on him demonstrating his value and for that he needs PT not controversy.

Anyway, if we're giving up talent our moves should by more synced up with our core. From the Lakers POV, I'm doubt they'd want to lock salary in to Collin or give up that pick without a commitment from James.

The proposal on the T&T board has Sexton to the Nets, Love and Kyrie to the Lakers, with Westbrook and picks going to the Cavs. The pick package is generous, too generous for the Lakers to actually offer it IMO. The Lakers problem isn't just this season, it's the seasons that follow.

Do they want to be without control over their 1st round picks for 7 full years going forward so they can build a team around AD, who can't stay healthy, a 38-year old LBJ on a fully guaranteed, multi-year contract, Kyrie on the same, and no cap space? That's the best case scenario. An alternative scenario is that things don't work out, LBJ and Kyrie bolt after this season, and they're overpaying guys like GTJ and Wiggins to play with AD. Worse case scenario is that AD gets hurt again, LBJ and Kyrie bolt, and they're back to overpaying guys like Deng and Mozgov because good free agents don't trust AD's ability to stay healthy and anchor a good team.

Presumably why the Lakers seem to actually care about commitment for a change. If all it took was being willing to max Kyrie to get LeBron to commit, then perhaps they'd trade those picks.

Of course if Pelinka is using his crystal ball (collusion) he should have a good idea who would or would not be willing to sign with or force a trade to the Lakers if they create the cap space.

Teams are starting push back on forced S&Ts to specific destinations, and even when they were happening, teams were extracting a premium to cooperate. Due to past moves, the Lakers are no longer in a position to offer that premium. Also, I'm not sure how many players are going to want force their way onto the Lakers with AD and LBJ taking up 2/3 of the cap space at this point.

CP3 opting out of $40M so he could force the Suns to commit to $120M, over the course of three additional years, and the impact that had on Ayton getting paid, or will have on Cam getting paid, is going to cause a stir, at least among agents if not players. CP3's tank looked pretty empty late in the playoffs.

[JonFromVA]

The proposal on the T&T board has Sexton to the Nets, Love and Kyrie to the Lakers, with Westbrook and picks going to the Cavs. The pick package is generous, too generous for the Lakers to actually offer it IMO. The Lakers problem isn't just this season, it's the seasons that follow.

Do they want to be without control over their 1st round picks for 7 full years going forward so they can build a team around AD, who can't stay healthy, a 38-year old LBJ on a fully guaranteed, multi-year contract, Kyrie on the same, and no cap space? That's the best case scenario. An alternative scenario is that things don't work out, LBJ and Kyrie bolt after this season, and they're overpaying guys like GTJ and Wiggins to play with AD. Worse case scenario is that AD gets hurt again, LBJ and Kyrie bolt, and they're back to overpaying guys like Deng and Mozgov because good free agents don't trust AD's ability to stay healthy and anchor a good team.

Presumably why the Lakers seem to actually care about commitment for a change. If all it took was being willing to max Kyrie to get LeBron to commit, then perhaps they'd trade those picks.

Of course if Pelinka is using his crystal ball (collusion) he should have a good idea who would or would not be willing to sign with or force a trade to the Lakers if they create the cap space.

Teams are starting push back on forced S&Ts to specific destinations, and even when they were happening, teams were extracting a premium to cooperate. Due to past moves, the Lakers are no longer in a position to offer that premium. Also, I'm not sure how many players are going to want force their way onto the Lakers with AD and LBJ taking up 2/3 of the cap space at this point.

CP3 opting out of $40M so he could force the Suns to commit to $120M, over the course of three additional years, and the impact that had on Ayton getting paid, or will have on Cam getting paid, is going to cause a stir, at least among agents if not players. CP3's tank looked pretty empty late in the playoffs.

Well, we'll see how things play out ... collusion with players under contract can only get you so far when you need their team to co-operate. I'm just glad the Cavs aren't the team being forced to trade their star or cope with their superstar likely walking if they don't make a big move for a change.

[toooskies]

Throwing **** against the wall here... if the overlying concern with Sexton is that he will not accept a sixth man role, what about getting involved in one of these rumored trades, where we send out Sexton and Love, and end up with Westbrook + compensation. Russ buys in, wins sixth man of the year, Cavs maintain future cap flexibility.

I see Sexton as trying to prove there's a team that would/should start him and pay him starting money, whereas Westbrook has already proven this and someone would have to somehow convince him to accept another role. If Collin takes the QO, his next contract will depend on him demonstrating his value and for that he needs PT not controversy.

Anyway, if we're giving up talent our moves should by more synced up with our core. From the Lakers POV, I'm doubt they'd want to lock salary in to Collin or give up that pick without a commitment from James.

The proposal on the T&T board has Sexton to the Nets, Love and Kyrie to the Lakers, with Westbrook and picks going to the Cavs. The pick package is generous, too generous for the Lakers to actually offer it IMO. The Lakers problem isn't just this season, it's the seasons that follow.

Do they want to be without control over their 1st round picks for 7 full years going forward so they can build a team around AD, who can't stay healthy, a 38-year old LBJ on a fully guaranteed, multi-year contract, Kyrie on the same, and no cap space? That's the best case scenario. An alternative scenario is that things don't work out, LBJ and Kyrie bolt after this season, and they're overpaying guys like GTJ and Wiggins to play with AD. Worse case scenario is that AD gets hurt again, LBJ and Kyrie bolt, and they're back to overpaying guys like Deng and Mozgov because good free agents don't trust AD's ability to stay healthy and anchor a good team.

The Lakers have to have some other plan besides drafting guys in 2027/2028/2029 to start the next chapter of their franchise, especially given that that chapter can start as soon as the offseason of 2023. However, those picks probably need to be used in order to create that next chapter. They should probably be trying to pry upcoming RFAs away from teams who may not want to pay them but could at least be your leading scorer by the end of their rookie extension-- Sexton, Herro, Barrett as the top three targets. Let Russ's salary expire and let the extension fill it.

But Sexton is probably their hardest target to land-- they can swap THT for Barrett + picks or Nunn for Herro + picks, but Sexton requires Westbrook going out, which comes at a real cost.

[jbk1234]

I see Sexton as trying to prove there's a team that would/should start him and pay him starting money, whereas Westbrook has already proven this and someone would have to somehow convince him to accept another role. If Collin takes the QO, his next contract will depend on him demonstrating his value and for that he needs PT not controversy.

Anyway, if we're giving up talent our moves should by more synced up with our core. From the Lakers POV, I'm doubt they'd want to lock salary in to Collin or give up that pick without a commitment from James.

The proposal on the T&T board has Sexton to the Nets, Love and Kyrie to the Lakers, with Westbrook and picks going to the Cavs. The pick package is generous, too generous for the Lakers to actually offer it IMO. The Lakers problem isn't just this season, it's the seasons that follow.

Do they want to be without control over their 1st round picks for 7 full years going forward so they can build a team around AD, who can't stay healthy, a 38-year old LBJ on a fully guaranteed, multi-year contract, Kyrie on the same, and no cap space? That's the best case scenario. An alternative scenario is that things don't work out, LBJ and Kyrie bolt after this season, and they're overpaying guys like GTJ and Wiggins to play with AD. Worse case scenario is that AD gets hurt again, LBJ and Kyrie bolt, and they're back to overpaying guys like Deng and Mozgov because good free agents don't trust AD's ability to stay healthy and anchor a good team.

The Lakers have to have some other plan besides drafting guys in 2027/2028/2029 to start the next chapter of their franchise, especially given that that chapter can start as soon as the offseason of 2023. However, those picks probably need to be used in order to create that next chapter. They should probably be trying to pry upcoming RFAs away from teams who may not want to pay them but could at least be your leading scorer by the end of their rookie extension-- Sexton, Herro, Barrett as the top three targets. Let Russ's salary expire and let the extension fill it.

But Sexton is probably their hardest target to land-- they can swap THT for Barrett + picks or Nunn for Herro + picks, but Sexton requires Westbrook going out, which comes at a real cost.

If their front office is even marginally competent, they're contemplating damage mitigation and taking calls on AD and LBJ right now. AD has average 48.5 games per season over the last 4 seasons and he's owed $130M over the next three seasons. He's one more serious injury away from being neutral value, at best, on that deal. LBJ will be 38 when he begins his next contract, and he'll be entering his 19th season in the NBA. Jeannie Buss is very publicly crying poor and complaining about the luxury tax. It seems very much like they're attempting to defuse a bomb that's already gone off.

[johnnyballgame]

What about these proposed trades? .. Especially this last one... Which I think is almost peanuts to acquire Mitchell.

https://nbaanalysis.net/2022/07/18/nba-trade-rumors-donovan-mitchell-cleveland-cavaliers-utah-jazz/4/

[jbk1234]

What about these proposed trades? .. Especially this last one... Which I think is almost peanuts to acquire Mitchell.

https://nbaanalysis.net/2022/07/18/nba-trade-rumors-donovan-mitchell-cleveland-cavaliers-utah-jazz/4/

I'm not trading all that draft capital, that far out, for Mitchell. He's not that guy. Three firsts and two sets of swap rights are absurd and if they're conveying after Allen and Garland come off their contracts, that's a non-starter.

I'd probably consider the first one though.

[KuruptedCav]

What about these proposed trades? .. Especially this last one... Which I think is almost peanuts to acquire Mitchell.

https://nbaanalysis.net/2022/07/18/nba-trade-rumors-donovan-mitchell-cleveland-cavaliers-utah-jazz/4/

I’d do the first one even though it’s iffy piece value because of the consolidation value. I

The second one is an overpay because Love is actually useful to the Cavs but not the Jazz (except as expiring contract) which is requiring the ‘29 pick; and that’s a lot of risk for Mitchell.

I have zero idea why the Lakers want a part of #3. Still wouldn’t do it for ‘29 reasons, but Westbrook and Love/Beverly don’t seem to be a FRP + Swap difference.


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[mcfly1204]

I do not like the fit of Donovan Mitchell. Why bring in a more expensive version of Sexton to play next to Garland?

[JonFromVA]

I do not like the fit of Donovan Mitchell. Why bring in a more expensive version of Sexton to play next to Garland?

I'm not fond of it either, but if they thought what this team needs most is someone who can get them 50 points in a playoff game ... well Mitchell has done it a few times.

Mitchell is basically a fully realized fully compensated version of Collin with a 6'10" wingspan. So, many of the same pros and cons as we've discussed over the years, but at least he has been successfully paired with point-guards (Conley and Rubio).

[mcfly1204]

I would have rather we made a push for Murray before he went to Hawks. Sure, he can't score like Mitchell, but he provides a lot more outside of that. 20\20, sure, just feels like a Mitchell package would be better used elsewhere.

[JonFromVA]

I would have rather we made a push for Murray before he went to Hawks. Sure, he can't score like Mitchell, but he provides a lot more outside of that. 20\20, sure, just feels like a Mitchell package would be better used elsewhere.

The price may have been lower on Murray, but it sure wasn't cheap and the fit has problems there too. Murray is a much better defender, but same 6'10" wingspan. Mitchell is a legit 3pt shooter while Murray is not, and as I mentioned Murray has played with quality PG's in the past while pairing Murray with Young or Garland is new ground being explored. Murray has been paired with other points, but not ones as ball dominant I think.

It's all the fad I suppose, but I really don't like the idea of trading away all our future draft picks/swaps.

[mcfly1204]

Ultimately, I am just in that place where I want the organization to continue upgrading the roster, but the reality is that we should more than likely just stand pat. I am completely onboard with resigning Sexton though. Hoping for a 2+1 deal that can be agreed upon, even if it's 3/$60.

Garland/Sexton/Rubio (2023+)
LeVert/Agbaji
Markannen/Okoro/Osman
Mobley/Love
Allen/Lopez

If Sexton and/or LeVert show us something, you should have a solid rotation in there.

[jbk1234]

I have reservations about a Mitchell/Garland pairing, and overpaying for Mitchell, but any notion that Mitchell is just some slightly better version of Sexton are misplaced. Mitchell is a better shooter, he has far better floor vision, he's better at involving his teammates in the offense, and he's a better defender.

Sexton's flaws are serious in terms of him being a core piece or a starter, and it seems pretty plain that people are who are paid to project improvement, aren't when it comes to Sexton's shortcomings. Maybe he's been presented with $16-18M per offer sheets from other teams, has declined to sign them, and we just haven't heard about it, but that hasn't been the reporting. Even I thought he'd find a team to offer him that type of money.

Long story short, there's no justification for the Cavs offering him a $20M per deal at this point. Overpaying players by $5M per and getting stuck with them because of *feels* is dumb.

[mcfly1204]

I'm not going to act as if I have watched a ton of Mitchell, but is he really a better shooter? Percentages are pretty much dead-on across the board. Along with that, I keep hearing knocks on his defense, despite the wingspan. As far as his distributing goes, I'll give you that one by default. That said, I'm still not ready to write Collin off as a complete ball-stopper. Really unfortunate that we did not get to see him more last season, and I struggle to judge him on previous seasons when he was clearly asked to prioritize scoring.

[jbk1234]

I'm not going to act as if I have watched a ton of Mitchell, but is he really a better shooter? Percentages are pretty much dead-on across the board. Along with that, I keep hearing knocks on his defense, despite the wingspan. As far as his distributing goes, I'll give you that one by default. That said, I'm still not ready to write Collin off as a complete ball-stopper. Really unfortunate that we did not get to see him more last season, and I struggle to judge him on previous seasons when he was clearly asked to prioritize scoring.

Mitchell has averaged 7.7 3papg game over the course of his career. About one in three shots are beyond the arc.

I struggle with the idea that Sexton played the way he did because that's what he was asked to do, by several coaching staffs, over a three year period, while we were winning 20 games a season.

[JonFromVA]

I'm not going to act as if I have watched a ton of Mitchell, but is he really a better shooter? Percentages are pretty much dead-on across the board. Along with that, I keep hearing knocks on his defense, despite the wingspan. As far as his distributing goes, I'll give you that one by default. That said, I'm still not ready to write Collin off as a complete ball-stopper. Really unfortunate that we did not get to see him more last season, and I struggle to judge him on previous seasons when he was clearly asked to prioritize scoring.

IMO, Collin is already hanging with Mitchell in terms of 3pt% and TS%, but Mitchell is shooting nearly twice as many 3's.

Mitchell is not a good defender. Is he better than Collin? Who cares. We're not giving up every future pick and a max contract for Collin.

Something they do have in common, is nether of their teams have been better with them on the floor than off ... and we may see how this shakes out when the guy who (by the numbers) was the driving force behind the Jazz's success moves to Minnesota.

Heck, even Murray didn't have much of an on-off after putting up big numbers this season. I mean, tanking is fun and all, but the Spurs were willing to give him up rather than keep him as the centerpiece of their rebuild.

So, as they say ... buyer beware.

As bored fans, it's fun to dream about the next big move during the off-season and trying to win it all with a trade; but it usually takes a lot of time to get from here to there and we've seen in the past that making a move because we have a window/opportunity to do so doesn't always turn out that well.

Nothing wrong with continuing to develop and evaluate this roster ... deity forbid that one of our young players that everyone is so willing to dump in a trade breaks out and becomes the guy we need or the centerpiece in a trade for the guy we need.

[ijspeelman]

Mitchell has averaged 7.7 3papg game over the course of his career. About one in three shots are beyond the arc.

I struggle with the idea that Sexton played the way he did because that's what he was asked to do, by several coaching staffs, over a three year period, while we were winning 20 games a season.

IMO, Collin is already hanging with Mitchell in terms of 3pt% and TS%, but Mitchell is shooting nearly twice as many 3's.

To add to these, Sexton is not normally a movement shooter or self-generating his own threes. There are examples of him shooting off the dribble, but these efforts have been inefficient (32.2% off 3s with more than one dribble last 3 years) and sparse (31.4% of his 3PAs last 3 years) whereas Mitchell shot above league average efficiency (36.7% off 3s with more than one dribble last 3 years) and with more volume (49.5% of his 3PAs last 3 years). Collin's 3P% would be inflated by these tendencies with less stress on the defense off of his movement laterally.

But either way, I wouldn't trade for Mitchell because the fit would be bad... not because he is a bad player. There are always options for facilitating these trades to grab assets (one RJ Barrett, please).