Is it reasonable to argue that after 2014 there's a case that Durant was never a top 5 player again?

[Purch]

There isn't a case that he wasn't top 1 in 2017 and 2018.

People magically act like he elevated to the best players in the league on the Warriors. The truth is he just didn't have to live with nearly as much defensive attention as he had to on Okc/Brooklyn. GS gave him the opportunity to play 1 v 1 against defenders and his numbers reflected that.

I'd definitely consider him top 5 those years. But I'm firmly in the camp that never believes Durant was the best player in the league

[OhayoKD]

If you’re not including years he was injured (15 and 20) I don’t see how he’s not t5 at least every year from 16-21. Players better by year

16: Steph LeBron
Who are the other 3 you put over him to push him to 6? CP3 Russ and AD??? Harden??? I just don’t see those arguments

17: Steph LeBron

I guess you could try and argue Kawhi Russ and CP3 but this is peak KD so I REALLY don’t see it (even if this is peak Kawhi and Russ)

18: steph lebron

Idk who you’re putting over him other than harden and AD but that’s still putting him at 5

19 is a really deep year at the top so I could see him sliding out of the t5 (especially if you injury tax him) under Steph Kawhi Giannis and then ig harden and ad

21: Giannis Jokic Steph Kawhi and LeBron(??)

Yea I just don’t see it

Luka definitely has a case in 2021

[MyUniBroDavis]

Do his teammates matter? Does coaching strategy matter? Your answers to those question could actually be useful.

.

Yes they matter. He would be playing with some of the best players and coaching. Should we expect him to do bad? Would Steve Kerr not be able to figure out how to use him?

Westbrook isn't in his prime and hasn't been for years. It makes no sense to use what he's doing now as a barometer for how he would do 6 years ago. He isn't a good player anymore and has not been for at least 3 seasons. In 2016 he was one of the best players in the league.

Would one of the best players in the league do well playing with the Warriors? The answer is pretty obviously yes, otherwise he's a crappy player.

Coaching? Need we be reminded of how bad Westbrook made a guy like Billy Donovan look?

Kerr wants his team to play motion read & react offense. Maybe if he were on a team where Westbrook was the main talent he'd give that up, but on a team with Curry & Thompson, that's how he's going to want to play. Why would you expect a guy who likes to dominate the ball would fit into that?

I agree that Westbrook would def not look too great in the Warriors offense, But I think it’s more of a fit issue than anything else.

I think with Westbrook you need him to have a pick and roll offense based around him to maximize him, so with the Warriors in particularly the main “roll man” utterly doesn’t fit around him, and Curry is just better at pick and rolls with dray in general because they have synergy there

In a motion offense he doesn’t really fit, and it’s a situation where Westbrook’s talents aren’t all that useful to the Warriors in that their main roll guy in green is one of the worst partners for a guy like Westbrook, and Curry is just, well, better

I don’t think he’s stupid, he can make good playmaking reads and is a great passer but just from a roster perspective he’s so redundant on that team and it utterly doesn’t fit him, maybe he boosts their transition game a but that’s mainly it

I don’t think

Westbrook was a deserving MVP and a top quality player at his peak is mutually exclusive with he wouldn’t be very good on the Warriors, the Warriors have in a vacuum potentially the best pg ever whose entire value is his offense, and have a roster built around him which is very much not the type of roster you’d build around westbrook

[iggymcfrack]

If you’re not including years he was injured (15 and 20) I don’t see how he’s not t5 at least every year from 16-21. Players better by year

16: Steph LeBron
Who are the other 3 you put over him to push him to 6? CP3 Russ and AD??? Harden??? I just don’t see those arguments

17: Steph LeBron

I guess you could try and argue Kawhi Russ and CP3 but this is peak KD so I REALLY don’t see it (even if this is peak Kawhi and Russ)

18: steph lebron

Idk who you’re putting over him other than harden and AD but that’s still putting him at 5

19 is a really deep year at the top so I could see him sliding out of the t5 (especially if you injury tax him) under Steph Kawhi Giannis and then ig harden and ad

21: Giannis Jokic Steph Kawhi and LeBron(??)

Yea I just don’t see it

Russ has a very good case in 2016. Here's how they did on the same team:

Regular season
Westbrook 27.6 PER, 14.0 WS, 7.8 BPM, +12.6 on/off
Durant 28.2 PER, 14.5 WS, 9.9 BPM, +12.6 on/off

Postseason
Westbrook 26.9 PER, 2.9 WS, 9.1 BPM, +12.9 on/off
Durant 20.3 PER, 2.0 WS, 4.0 BPM, +6.6 on/off

In that same season, Kawhi led a pretty mediocre Spurs team to 67 wins, finished 2nd in the MVP vote, won DPOY, and in the playoffs he had a PER of 28.6 and a BPM of 11.6.

CP3 and Durant were pretty close. CP3 had slightly better impact numbers and massively better playoff numbers in 4 games, but did end up breaking his hand and missing the rest of the series. I think that's pretty debatable based on criteria. Is it more impressive to put up a 33.2 PER and a +16 on/off before suffering a freak injury or to stay healthy and put up a 20.3 PER and a +7 on/off while remaining in the lineup?

Draymond also has a pretty legit case that year. He finished 7th in MVP voting, 1st in RAPM, and 6th (1 spot ahead of KD) in LEBRON. He also had an incredible playoffs, nearly matching KD in PER, beating him in TS%, WS/48, and BPM, and shooting 8% better from 3. He also had the best on/off by far on the 73 win Warriors, going +26 in the regular season, and +14 in the playoffs compared to +23 and -4 for Steph. Finally, he had a ridiculous 32/15/9 game on .955 TS% in Game 7 of the NBA Finals which would have almost surely won him Finals MVP if the Ws could have held off Cleveland.

Honestly, I think I go:
1. LeBron
2. Curry
3. Kawhi
4. Draymond
5. Westbrook

for the season although 3 through 7 are all pretty close.

[HeartBreakKid]

There isn't a case that he wasn't top 1 in 2017 and 2018.

People magically act like he elevated to the best players in the league on the Warriors. The truth is he just didn't have to live with nearly as much defensive attention as he had to on Okc/Brooklyn. GS gave him the opportunity to play 1 v 1 against defenders and his numbers reflected that.

I'd definitely consider him top 5 those years. But I'm firmly in the camp that never believes Durant was the best player in the league

Sometimes Durant wasn't guarded at all which needless to say wouldn't happen if he was on most other teams.

[No-more-rings]

In that same season, Kawhi led a pretty mediocre Spurs team to 67 wins

Huh? That Spurs cast was definitely not mediocre.

[falcolombardi]

I am a bit unsure when did "how would this player do in the warriors" become the ultimate barometer of player evaluation?

[tsherkin]

I am a bit unsure when did "how would this player do in the warriors" become the ultimate barometer of player evaluation?

I think largely it's a pivotal thing in Durant's case because some are trying to use his raw box score stats and percentages to justify his ranking as the best player in the league at the time, while ignoring the impact Steph's gravity had on Durant's opportunity to play against single coverage instead of being the focus of the D. That sort of thing.

[OhayoKD]

If you’re not including years he was injured (15 and 20) I don’t see how he’s not t5 at least every year from 16-21. Players better by year

16: Steph LeBron
Who are the other 3 you put over him to push him to 6? CP3 Russ and AD??? Harden??? I just don’t see those arguments

17: Steph LeBron

I guess you could try and argue Kawhi Russ and CP3 but this is peak KD so I REALLY don’t see it (even if this is peak Kawhi and Russ)

18: steph lebron

Idk who you’re putting over him other than harden and AD but that’s still putting him at 5

19 is a really deep year at the top so I could see him sliding out of the t5 (especially if you injury tax him) under Steph Kawhi Giannis and then ig harden and ad

21: Giannis Jokic Steph Kawhi and LeBron(??)

Yea I just don’t see it

Russ has a very good case in 2016. Here's how they did on the same team:

Regular season
Westbrook 27.6 PER, 14.0 WS, 7.8 BPM, +12.6 on/off
Durant 28.2 PER, 14.5 WS, 9.9 BPM, +12.6 on/off

Postseason
Westbrook 26.9 PER, 2.9 WS, 9.1 BPM, +12.9 on/off
Durant 20.3 PER, 2.0 WS, 4.0 BPM, +6.6 on/off

In that same season, Kawhi led a pretty mediocre Spurs team to 67 wins, finished 2nd in the MVP vote, won DPOY, and in the playoffs he had a PER of 28.6 and a BPM of 11.6.

CP3 and Durant were pretty close. CP3 had slightly better impact numbers and massively better playoff numbers in 4 games, but did end up breaking his hand and missing the rest of the series. I think that's pretty debatable based on criteria. Is it more impressive to put up a 33.2 PER and a +16 on/off before suffering a freak injury or to stay healthy and put up a 20.3 PER and a +7 on/off while remaining in the lineup?

Draymond also has a pretty legit case that year. He finished 7th in MVP voting, 1st in RAPM, and 6th (1 spot ahead of KD) in LEBRON. He also had an incredible playoffs, nearly matching KD in PER, beating him in TS%, WS/48, and BPM, and shooting 8% better from 3. He also had the best on/off by far on the 73 win Warriors, going +26 in the regular season, and +14 in the playoffs compared to +23 and -4 for Steph. Finally, he had a ridiculous 32/15/9 game on .955 TS% in Game 7 of the NBA Finals which would have almost surely won him Finals MVP if the Ws could have held off Cleveland.

Honestly, I think I go:
1. LeBron
2. Curry
3. Kawhi
4. Draymond
5. Westbrook

for the season although 3 through 7 are all pretty close.

isn't per super obsolete?

[iggymcfrack]

If you’re not including years he was injured (15 and 20) I don’t see how he’s not t5 at least every year from 16-21. Players better by year

16: Steph LeBron
Who are the other 3 you put over him to push him to 6? CP3 Russ and AD??? Harden??? I just don’t see those arguments

17: Steph LeBron

I guess you could try and argue Kawhi Russ and CP3 but this is peak KD so I REALLY don’t see it (even if this is peak Kawhi and Russ)

18: steph lebron

Idk who you’re putting over him other than harden and AD but that’s still putting him at 5

19 is a really deep year at the top so I could see him sliding out of the t5 (especially if you injury tax him) under Steph Kawhi Giannis and then ig harden and ad

21: Giannis Jokic Steph Kawhi and LeBron(??)

Yea I just don’t see it

Russ has a very good case in 2016. Here's how they did on the same team:

Regular season
Westbrook 27.6 PER, 14.0 WS, 7.8 BPM, +12.6 on/off
Durant 28.2 PER, 14.5 WS, 9.9 BPM, +12.6 on/off

Postseason
Westbrook 26.9 PER, 2.9 WS, 9.1 BPM, +12.9 on/off
Durant 20.3 PER, 2.0 WS, 4.0 BPM, +6.6 on/off

In that same season, Kawhi led a pretty mediocre Spurs team to 67 wins, finished 2nd in the MVP vote, won DPOY, and in the playoffs he had a PER of 28.6 and a BPM of 11.6.

CP3 and Durant were pretty close. CP3 had slightly better impact numbers and massively better playoff numbers in 4 games, but did end up breaking his hand and missing the rest of the series. I think that's pretty debatable based on criteria. Is it more impressive to put up a 33.2 PER and a +16 on/off before suffering a freak injury or to stay healthy and put up a 20.3 PER and a +7 on/off while remaining in the lineup?

Draymond also has a pretty legit case that year. He finished 7th in MVP voting, 1st in RAPM, and 6th (1 spot ahead of KD) in LEBRON. He also had an incredible playoffs, nearly matching KD in PER, beating him in TS%, WS/48, and BPM, and shooting 8% better from 3. He also had the best on/off by far on the 73 win Warriors, going +26 in the regular season, and +14 in the playoffs compared to +23 and -4 for Steph. Finally, he had a ridiculous 32/15/9 game on .955 TS% in Game 7 of the NBA Finals which would have almost surely won him Finals MVP if the Ws could have held off Cleveland.

Honestly, I think I go:
1. LeBron
2. Curry
3. Kawhi
4. Draymond
5. Westbrook

for the season although 3 through 7 are all pretty close.

isn't per super obsolete?

I still like it, not as a stat to use to actually rank players, but more as a stat that expresses box score value and is easy to adjust for defense and playmaking, but if you don't like it, just use all the other stats listed in the post.

[OhayoKD]

Russ has a very good case in 2016. Here's how they did on the same team:

Regular season
Westbrook 27.6 PER, 14.0 WS, 7.8 BPM, +12.6 on/off
Durant 28.2 PER, 14.5 WS, 9.9 BPM, +12.6 on/off

Postseason
Westbrook 26.9 PER, 2.9 WS, 9.1 BPM, +12.9 on/off
Durant 20.3 PER, 2.0 WS, 4.0 BPM, +6.6 on/off

In that same season, Kawhi led a pretty mediocre Spurs team to 67 wins, finished 2nd in the MVP vote, won DPOY, and in the playoffs he had a PER of 28.6 and a BPM of 11.6.

CP3 and Durant were pretty close. CP3 had slightly better impact numbers and massively better playoff numbers in 4 games, but did end up breaking his hand and missing the rest of the series. I think that's pretty debatable based on criteria. Is it more impressive to put up a 33.2 PER and a +16 on/off before suffering a freak injury or to stay healthy and put up a 20.3 PER and a +7 on/off while remaining in the lineup?

Draymond also has a pretty legit case that year. He finished 7th in MVP voting, 1st in RAPM, and 6th (1 spot ahead of KD) in LEBRON. He also had an incredible playoffs, nearly matching KD in PER, beating him in TS%, WS/48, and BPM, and shooting 8% better from 3. He also had the best on/off by far on the 73 win Warriors, going +26 in the regular season, and +14 in the playoffs compared to +23 and -4 for Steph. Finally, he had a ridiculous 32/15/9 game on .955 TS% in Game 7 of the NBA Finals which would have almost surely won him Finals MVP if the Ws could have held off Cleveland.

Honestly, I think I go:
1. LeBron
2. Curry
3. Kawhi
4. Draymond
5. Westbrook

for the season although 3 through 7 are all pretty close.

isn't per super obsolete?

I still like it, not as a stat to use to actually rank players, but more as a stat that expresses box score value and is easy to adjust for defense and playmaking, but if you don't like it, just use all the other stats listed in the post.

how do you adjust for defense and playmaking?

and isn't "box-score value" what is being used by stats that do box-regression"

[Ron Swanson]

There's a case that he hasn't been Top-5 post-Achilles injury, but I see zero case he wasn't still Top-5 from 2015-2019 unless you penalize him to an almost unfair degree for coattail riding to a couple rings with GS. Although I will say it's good to finally see everyone wise up and dismiss the comically stupid "bEsT PlAYer iN DA wOrld" takes after the 2021 season. Man was that annoying.

[JordansBulls]

There isn't a case that he wasn't top 1 in 2017 and 2018.

People magically act like he elevated to the best players in the league on the Warriors. The truth is he just didn't have to live with nearly as much defensive attention as he had to on Okc/Brooklyn. GS gave him the opportunity to play 1 v 1 against defenders and his numbers reflected that.

I'd definitely consider him top 5 those years. But I'm firmly in the camp that never believes Durant was the best player in the league

Well you are wrong. No one wins backs to back Finals mvp's without being the best in the league.

[Cavsfansince84]

There isn't a case that he wasn't top 1 in 2017 and 2018.

People magically act like he elevated to the best players in the league on the Warriors. The truth is he just didn't have to live with nearly as much defensive attention as he had to on Okc/Brooklyn. GS gave him the opportunity to play 1 v 1 against defenders and his numbers reflected that.

I'd definitely consider him top 5 those years. But I'm firmly in the camp that never believes Durant was the best player in the league

Well you are wrong. No one wins backs to back Finals mvp's without being the best in the league.

So if Isiah had played a bit better and Dumars a bit worse in 89 and Isiah gotten b2b fmvps this means he was automatically the best player in the league those years? You are way too absolute in how you view things imo. It's like why discuss anything if all context is just thrown out the window? KD can get credit for how he played in those two finals but it doesn't automatically = he has to be seen as the best player in the league for both years.

[JordansBulls]

People magically act like he elevated to the best players in the league on the Warriors. The truth is he just didn't have to live with nearly as much defensive attention as he had to on Okc/Brooklyn. GS gave him the opportunity to play 1 v 1 against defenders and his numbers reflected that.

I'd definitely consider him top 5 those years. But I'm firmly in the camp that never believes Durant was the best player in the league

Well you are wrong. No one wins backs to back Finals mvp's without being the best in the league.

So if Isiah had played a bit better and Dumars a bit worse in 89 and Isiah gotten b2b fmvps this means he was automatically the best player in the league those years? You are way too absolute in how you view things imo. It's like why discuss anything if all context is just thrown out the window? KD can get credit for how he played in those two finals but it doesn't automatically = he has to be seen as the best player in the league for both years.

Why are talking about If scenarios? I am talking about what happened. I mean using IF we can say what's happens if Germany and Japan had the Atom Bomb in WWII in 1941 instead of the US in 1945.

[Cavsfansince84]

Why are talking about If scenarios? I am talking about what happened. I mean using IF we can say what's happens if Germany and Japan had the Atom Bomb in WWII in 1941 instead of the US in 1945.

Because Isiah getting b2b fmvps is very easily done. Like I said, all it takes is him scoring slightly more and Dumars scoring slightly less. Its showing to me how flimsy the logic you are using is. Which of course you don't have to acknowledge or agree with but that's how I view it.

[JordansBulls]

Why are talking about If scenarios? I am talking about what happened. I mean using IF we can say what's happens if Germany and Japan had the Atom Bomb in WWII in 1941 instead of the US in 1945.

Because Isiah getting b2b fmvps is very easily done. Like I said, all it takes is him scoring slightly more and Dumars scoring slightly less. Its showing to me how flimsy the logic you are using is. Which of course you don't have to acknowledge or agree with but that's how I view it.

That's not easily done because it didn't happen especially not a historic finals mvp. Now if you say you gotta win back to back titles with the franchise that drafted you and that never won prior to you arriving then you got me and I can't argue that here.